Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Is It Natural to Kill Our Parents? Dark Psychology of Parricide (with Maureen Callahan, The Nerve)

1. 00:00 There is no bigger story in Hollywood and the entertainment media right now than the shocking double homicide of Rob and Michelle Reiner, allegedly at the hands of their son, 32year-old Nick Reiner. But as we learn more, and we will continue to learn more, the question will inevitably become just how shocking was it really? or were the family dynamics such that a tragedy like this seemed inevitable? We at the nerve are here to have the conversations that no one else is having. And this story opens up a dark but fascinating There is no bigger story in Hollywood and the entertainment media right now than the shocking double homicide of Rob and Michelle Reiner, allegedly at the hands of their son, 32year-old Nick Reiner. But as we learn more, and we will continue to learn more, the question will inevitably become just how shocking was it really? or were the family dynamics such that a tragedy like this seemed inevitable? We at the nerve are here to have the conversations that no one else is having. And this story opens up a dark but fascinating
2. 00:41 topic. One as old as mankind itself. The phenomenon of paraside, that being the murder of one or both parents by their own child. And who better to help us understand this darkest of human aberrations but the one and only Professor Sam Vachnan joining us now. Sam, welcome back to the nerve. >> It’s great to open the year with you, but I’m not but I’m not sure what that what you’ve just said whether I should take it as a compliment or a major insult. >> Oh, I you know it’s so funny. We were topic. One as old as mankind itself. The phenomenon of paraside, that being the murder of one or both parents by their own child. And who better to help us understand this darkest of human aberrations but the one and only Professor Sam Vachnan joining us now. Sam, welcome back to the nerve. >> It’s great to open the year with you, but I’m not but I’m not sure what that what you’ve just said whether I should take it as a compliment or a major insult. >> Oh, I you know it’s so funny. We were
3. 01:18 talking to Nancy Grace not not long ago and she said the same thing. I said, “Who better to talk about the the nuances of this trial with?” And she was like, “Are you saying I have a dark heart?” No such thing. No such thing. >> Um, but Sam, you know, I’ve been thinking about this since since the story broke. And, you know, I think back to the very first family of the Bible of the Old Testament, Cain and Abel, the first siblings, and it’s fratricside, so it’s it’s not paraside, but it’s talking to Nancy Grace not not long ago and she said the same thing. I said, “Who better to talk about the the nuances of this trial with?” And she was like, “Are you saying I have a dark heart?” No such thing. No such thing. >> Um, but Sam, you know, I’ve been thinking about this since since the story broke. And, you know, I think back to the very first family of the Bible of the Old Testament, Cain and Abel, the first siblings, and it’s fratricside, so it’s it’s not paraside, but it’s
4. 01:49 related. the killing of Abel by Cain. Um, why is this such a narrative strain? I mean, you go back to the ancient myths of Edipus who killed his father, married his mother. Um, it is throughout at least three Shakespeare works, Hamlet, McBth, Titus Andronicus. Um what is it in in um in the darker heart of of humanity that um in can give us any insight into this phenomenon? >> Killing our family members is normal. It is not killing them that is abnormal in the >> And you were worried. I thought you had related. the killing of Abel by Cain. Um, why is this such a narrative strain? I mean, you go back to the ancient myths of Edipus who killed his father, married his mother. Um, it is throughout at least three Shakespeare works, Hamlet, McBth, Titus Andronicus. Um what is it in in um in the darker heart of of humanity that um in can give us any insight into this phenomenon? >> Killing our family members is normal. It is not killing them that is abnormal in the >> And you were worried. I thought you had
5. 02:34 a dark heart. >> As dark as they come. I think what I’m trying to say is that when we look at the animal kingdom, >> killing your parents is the only way to move ahead. It’s the only way to climb the social ladder. Social upward mobility depends on killing your parents, you know. >> In what species is this? Most all >> almost all in almost all of them especially especially the more advanced the species is for example primates and and apes great apes and so on so forth a dark heart. >> As dark as they come. I think what I’m trying to say is that when we look at the animal kingdom, >> killing your parents is the only way to move ahead. It’s the only way to climb the social ladder. Social upward mobility depends on killing your parents, you know. >> In what species is this? Most all >> almost all in almost all of them especially especially the more advanced the species is for example primates and and apes great apes and so on so forth
6. 03:08 chimpanzees and but also among uh among lions and tigers among in in most of the most of the genera of the animal kingdom tyrid is very common especially patriced especially killing the father >> and what is that out. >> It’s about making place for the new generation. It’s about removing obstacles, as I said, to upward mobility. It’s about establishing hierarchy. It’s about gaining the favors of the female species of the the female of the species, gaining access actually. chimpanzees and but also among uh among lions and tigers among in in most of the most of the genera of the animal kingdom tyrid is very common especially patriced especially killing the father >> and what is that out. >> It’s about making place for the new generation. It’s about removing obstacles, as I said, to upward mobility. It’s about establishing hierarchy. It’s about gaining the favors of the female species of the the female of the species, gaining access actually.
7. 03:45 And so it’s normal, the normal thing in the animal kingdom is to kill your parents. It is only with the advent with the advent of civilization that we have created restraints and constraints and inhibitions and laws and regulations and you know self-control and self-discipline mores and ethics and norms and the Bible and you name it. It’s this is a veneer. This is a very thin veneer. It’s about what 5,000 years old maybe. >> Mhm. And so if you look at it from a statistical point of view, our behavior And so it’s normal, the normal thing in the animal kingdom is to kill your parents. It is only with the advent with the advent of civilization that we have created restraints and constraints and inhibitions and laws and regulations and you know self-control and self-discipline mores and ethics and norms and the Bible and you name it. It’s this is a veneer. This is a very thin veneer. It’s about what 5,000 years old maybe. >> Mhm. And so if you look at it from a statistical point of view, our behavior
8. 04:22 as a species where we refrain from killing our parents is a very very late addition to the to evolution and highly highly aberant or highly abnormal in the big picture of things. So Sam, what’s the evolutionary adaptation that uh caused mankind to um shun parasite to if you’re saying this is actually in our nature, what is the evolutionary benefit of not killing the father or the mother? >> It takes a long time to raise a human child. >> And if parents know that they are about as a species where we refrain from killing our parents is a very very late addition to the to evolution and highly highly aberant or highly abnormal in the big picture of things. So Sam, what’s the evolutionary adaptation that uh caused mankind to um shun parasite to if you’re saying this is actually in our nature, what is the evolutionary benefit of not killing the father or the mother? >> It takes a long time to raise a human child. >> And if parents know that they are about
9. 05:01 to be assassinated once the job is over, then they will simply not engage in it. From the point of view of the species, it behooves us to not get rid of our parents, at least not violently. And and well, you know, there are other ways. And the reason and the reason is we want to motivate them to parent. We want to motivate them to act as parents. Now, the human the human cub, the human baby >> Mhm. requires an inordinate amount of time according to some scholars 31 years maybe 25 years according to Twa and to be assassinated once the job is over, then they will simply not engage in it. From the point of view of the species, it behooves us to not get rid of our parents, at least not violently. And and well, you know, there are other ways. And the reason and the reason is we want to motivate them to parent. We want to motivate them to act as parents. Now, the human the human cub, the human baby >> Mhm. requires an inordinate amount of time according to some scholars 31 years maybe 25 years according to Twa and
10. 05:37 Campbell and at the very least 18 years according to most legal systems. So it takes decades to raise the human baby and bring it to the level of an adult in some cases majority of cases this fails but okay so it requires a lot of investment. Now how would we motivate people to invest in raising up children? we would guarantee them that they will stay alive having done so. This is not the case with chimpanzees, with horses, with zebras, with elephants. I mean, they they emerge, they are born, and within days they’re Campbell and at the very least 18 years according to most legal systems. So it takes decades to raise the human baby and bring it to the level of an adult in some cases majority of cases this fails but okay so it requires a lot of investment. Now how would we motivate people to invest in raising up children? we would guarantee them that they will stay alive having done so. This is not the case with chimpanzees, with horses, with zebras, with elephants. I mean, they they emerge, they are born, and within days they’re
11. 06:13 self-sufficient. >> Really, >> there’s no need for parenting. >> We think of elephants as like as a very uh sort of peaceful uh for species. Um, it’s a it’s a it’s a matriarchal uh species. Um, they we see them in herds. We see, you know, we see these animals grieve when when a child dies or when one of the tribe dies. Whe, you know, we’ve seen it with great apes. We’ve seen them lined up looking at the body of a of a of a of another ape with with shock and and despair on their self-sufficient. >> Really, >> there’s no need for parenting. >> We think of elephants as like as a very uh sort of peaceful uh for species. Um, it’s a it’s a it’s a matriarchal uh species. Um, they we see them in herds. We see, you know, we see these animals grieve when when a child dies or when one of the tribe dies. Whe, you know, we’ve seen it with great apes. We’ve seen them lined up looking at the body of a of a of a of another ape with with shock and and despair on their
12. 06:50 faces. So it it this all really runs counter to sort of the messaging we get that a parasite is um an event that is so rare as to be truly shocking. You know there was a there was a period of history I it I forget maybe it was the middle ages I do forget where um it parasite was considered the absolute worst crime one could commit. >> Roman Roman uh republic. Thank you. >> In the Roman Republic, parasite was the only offense punishable by death. The only really >> the only capital offense was parasite, faces. So it it this all really runs counter to sort of the messaging we get that a parasite is um an event that is so rare as to be truly shocking. You know there was a there was a period of history I it I forget maybe it was the middle ages I do forget where um it parasite was considered the absolute worst crime one could commit. >> Roman Roman uh republic. Thank you. >> In the Roman Republic, parasite was the only offense punishable by death. The only really >> the only capital offense was parasite,
13. 07:30 >> not even murder. >> So this was during the Roman Empire. And take for example the stories of the green brothers from >> Henzel. Hensel and Gretle. >> Henzel and Gretle are twice abandoned by their mother. >> Mhm. and rescued by the father. They actually gravitate towards the father’s cabin. That’s how they come across the the witch and her sweet gingerbread home and what have you. And so the grim brothers captured this uh this dilemma of uh this conflict in >> not even murder. >> So this was during the Roman Empire. And take for example the stories of the green brothers from >> Henzel. Hensel and Gretle. >> Henzel and Gretle are twice abandoned by their mother. >> Mhm. and rescued by the father. They actually gravitate towards the father’s cabin. That’s how they come across the the witch and her sweet gingerbread home and what have you. And so the grim brothers captured this uh this dilemma of uh this conflict in
14. 08:07 incipient conflict between children and their parents. The Grim Brothers did not illustrate the family as this ideal environment or idealic environment, but they they actually depicted the family as a kind of a fight fight club or um or an arena where children contest the parents. Parents abandon children to die. >> Mhm. >> Witches intervene in in some ways and and then the children kill the witch. The witch is also a maternal figure if you have a close look at it because she offers shelter, she offers food and so incipient conflict between children and their parents. The Grim Brothers did not illustrate the family as this ideal environment or idealic environment, but they they actually depicted the family as a kind of a fight fight club or um or an arena where children contest the parents. Parents abandon children to die. >> Mhm. >> Witches intervene in in some ways and and then the children kill the witch. The witch is also a maternal figure if you have a close look at it because she offers shelter, she offers food and so
15. 08:47 on. Then the father is remote and you have to work very hard to get to the father. Although the father is a protector figure, there’s a duck, a talking duck that helps them to get along, get there. In short, the family is a nightmare. >> In the stories of the green brothers, the family is a nightmare and a veritable nightmare. And of course you mentioned the edypus complex, the electra complex, the adjacent complex. I mean >> what’s the what’s the latter that you just referenced? on. Then the father is remote and you have to work very hard to get to the father. Although the father is a protector figure, there’s a duck, a talking duck that helps them to get along, get there. In short, the family is a nightmare. >> In the stories of the green brothers, the family is a nightmare and a veritable nightmare. And of course you mentioned the edypus complex, the electra complex, the adjacent complex. I mean >> what’s the what’s the latter that you just referenced?
16. 09:19 >> Some of these um some of these complexes are um less known. So some of them involve sibling rivalry, some of them involve sibling collusion against parents and so on. There’s a panopoly of complexes in psychoanalytic literature which describe the inevitable violence between family member members violence lethal violence. And so um I think I think we we tend to ignore the reality of this at our peril. You see relationships between family members especially parents and children are by far the most intense. >> Some of these um some of these complexes are um less known. So some of them involve sibling rivalry, some of them involve sibling collusion against parents and so on. There’s a panopoly of complexes in psychoanalytic literature which describe the inevitable violence between family member members violence lethal violence. And so um I think I think we we tend to ignore the reality of this at our peril. You see relationships between family members especially parents and children are by far the most intense.
17. 09:59 >> Mhm. Not only are they most intense, but there is a relation the relationship is reminiscent of of creator creation interactions that the parents of the creators you know. >> Yes. >> And the same way we rebel against God like Nichi said, God is dead. >> Mhm. >> The same way we rebel against God, we rebel against these design, these divine infallible figures of our early childhood. We want them dead because the alternative is to never become. We the if you put the the parents >> Mhm. Not only are they most intense, but there is a relation the relationship is reminiscent of of creator creation interactions that the parents of the creators you know. >> Yes. >> And the same way we rebel against God like Nichi said, God is dead. >> Mhm. >> The same way we rebel against God, we rebel against these design, these divine infallible figures of our early childhood. We want them dead because the alternative is to never become. We the if you put the the parents
18. 10:30 >> because I have an appointment at 12. >> But it’s not this kind of premeditated, but it’s definitely relished, anticipated, re- imagined and reimagined. >> There is a we call it vividness. There
19. 10:36 together that’s who you are. Essentially big parts of you are nothing but the internalization and introjection of your parents. Your parents are a huge part of you. If you are emotionally regulated and stable and boundaried and mature and everything then you can cope with it somehow. You learn to identify the parts of you that are not exactly you that are your your parents and you learn to put you know a firewall between these parts and the rest of you. But what if you are disregulated? What if your internal together that’s who you are. Essentially big parts of you are nothing but the internalization and introjection of your parents. Your parents are a huge part of you. If you are emotionally regulated and stable and boundaried and mature and everything then you can cope with it somehow. You learn to identify the parts of you that are not exactly you that are your your parents and you learn to put you know a firewall between these parts and the rest of you. But what if you are disregulated? What if your internal
20. 11:11 defenses are weak? What if you’re mentally ill? What if you are you know then then you need to get rid of these parts. These parts become overwinning, doineering, tyrannical and you need to get rid of these parts. And sometimes the only way to get rid of them is to physically kill your parents in very on very rare occas to 4% of of of crimes committed involve family members. >> This is interesting because there’s two things you’re hitting on that I wanted to talk to you about. One, you said, you defenses are weak? What if you’re mentally ill? What if you are you know then then you need to get rid of these parts. These parts become overwinning, doineering, tyrannical and you need to get rid of these parts. And sometimes the only way to get rid of them is to physically kill your parents in very on very rare occas to 4% of of of crimes committed involve family members. >> This is interesting because there’s two things you’re hitting on that I wanted to talk to you about. One, you said, you
21. 11:46 know, it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a killing of the creators. And to me, this is this is um one of the most self-destructive acts one could commit. You are killing the people who who literally created you and it seems like a murder of one’s own soul to commit such a crime. Um and I also wonder if there is any data on such intraf family violence um uh when it comes to um adult children or adolescent children who who are living with the parents. It seems that that close close proximity or living in the know, it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a killing of the creators. And to me, this is this is um one of the most self-destructive acts one could commit. You are killing the people who who literally created you and it seems like a murder of one’s own soul to commit such a crime. Um and I also wonder if there is any data on such intraf family violence um uh when it comes to um adult children or adolescent children who who are living with the parents. It seems that that close close proximity or living in the
22. 12:27 house beyond an age that seems emotionally healthy um is potentially a contributing factor. Paris is intimately linked to adolescence and the fact that in adolescence we we there is a phenomenon known as identity diffusion. >> Yes, >> Identity is not settled yet. There’s a lot of experimentation, a lot of angst about who I am and what’s the meaning of my life and where am I going and and so on. A lot of anxiety and depression in in this period of life >> and a lot of individuating from the house beyond an age that seems emotionally healthy um is potentially a contributing factor. Paris is intimately linked to adolescence and the fact that in adolescence we we there is a phenomenon known as identity diffusion. >> Yes, >> Identity is not settled yet. There’s a lot of experimentation, a lot of angst about who I am and what’s the meaning of my life and where am I going and and so on. A lot of anxiety and depression in in this period of life >> and a lot of individuating from the
23. 13:06 parents rebellion. >> Yes, there is what we call negative identity formation where you define yourself in contradistinction in opposition to the parental figure. You say I am never going to be like my mother or >> right >> I am going to be someone who is the opposite of my father or whatever. >> None of this works by the way. So there is a lot of inherent tension that is innate that takes place in the adolescent mind that is very often not evident and not observable. Be that as it may, the statistics are parents rebellion. >> Yes, there is what we call negative identity formation where you define yourself in contradistinction in opposition to the parental figure. You say I am never going to be like my mother or >> right >> I am going to be someone who is the opposite of my father or whatever. >> None of this works by the way. So there is a lot of inherent tension that is innate that takes place in the adolescent mind that is very often not evident and not observable. Be that as it may, the statistics are
24. 13:38 very clear. The vast majority of parasites are committed by minors who live with their parents. >> Really, we’re talking well over 90%. >> Um, teenage boys are the most likely to commit parasite. Um, teenage girls are far less likely. >> Mhm. >> The victims are usually parents who are somewhat strict or rigid or uh pillars of the community or perfectionists, have high expectations, impose their wishes, fantasies and demands on the child where the interaction is pretty very clear. The vast majority of parasites are committed by minors who live with their parents. >> Really, we’re talking well over 90%. >> Um, teenage boys are the most likely to commit parasite. Um, teenage girls are far less likely. >> Mhm. >> The victims are usually parents who are somewhat strict or rigid or uh pillars of the community or perfectionists, have high expectations, impose their wishes, fantasies and demands on the child where the interaction is pretty
25. 14:15 unidirectional. The parent dictates, the child obeys. And so I don’t want to go into the family dynamics of the rhiners. >> Mhm. But I would not be shocked or surprised if we were to find out that the father and possibly also the mother were a lot less amicable and and chubby than they appear to be and a lot more strict and rigid and demanding and and than you know this is very common in this and so it’s a it’s a paracid is an act of rebellion. When we interview these killers, unidirectional. The parent dictates, the child obeys. And so I don’t want to go into the family dynamics of the rhiners. >> Mhm. But I would not be shocked or surprised if we were to find out that the father and possibly also the mother were a lot less amicable and and chubby than they appear to be and a lot more strict and rigid and demanding and and than you know this is very common in this and so it’s a it’s a paracid is an act of rebellion. When we interview these killers,
26. 14:53 they say, “I wanted to be different. I wanted to have a different life.” There’s a lot of envy, a lot of rage, >> a feeling of feeling of extreme inadequacy which is fostered by the parents. >> The inadequacy is fostered. >> So there is a process known as internalization, internalized bed object. The parents broadcast to the child, you’re a failure. ah >> you’re inadequate, you’re imperfect, you should be fixed, you know, you’re broken, you should be fixed they say, “I wanted to be different. I wanted to have a different life.” There’s a lot of envy, a lot of rage, >> a feeling of feeling of extreme inadequacy which is fostered by the parents. >> The inadequacy is fostered. >> So there is a process known as internalization, internalized bed object. The parents broadcast to the child, you’re a failure. ah >> you’re inadequate, you’re imperfect, you should be fixed, you know, you’re broken, you should be fixed
27. 15:26 >> and so on so forth. And the child internalizes this external view and render is render this view is his or her own. So the child kind of appropriates the parental point of view and we call it an internalized bed object. This used to be called a primitive super ego by the way. M. >> And so the child is is is full of rage, full of anger and resentment. >> Yes. >> And and envys the parental figures because they’re perceived throughout life to be perfect, adequate, accomplished. >> and so on so forth. And the child internalizes this external view and render is render this view is his or her own. So the child kind of appropriates the parental point of view and we call it an internalized bed object. This used to be called a primitive super ego by the way. M. >> And so the child is is is full of rage, full of anger and resentment. >> Yes. >> And and envys the parental figures because they’re perceived throughout life to be perfect, adequate, accomplished.
28. 16:01 And and this leads to this combination, this unholy combination between rage and envy and um an attempt to break out and create a different life. fear, a sense of being controlled from the outside, an external locus of control. Um, an interpretation of the parental behavior is abuse, which is not counterfactual. It’s quite true. It is abusive. >> So, to not not to we’re not talking specifically about the rhiners here whatsoever, but what did strike me about that >> that crime and the scene itself was the And and this leads to this combination, this unholy combination between rage and envy and um an attempt to break out and create a different life. fear, a sense of being controlled from the outside, an external locus of control. Um, an interpretation of the parental behavior is abuse, which is not counterfactual. It’s quite true. It is abusive. >> So, to not not to we’re not talking specifically about the rhiners here whatsoever, but what did strike me about that >> that crime and the scene itself was the
29. 16:40 um the savagery. It was a butcher a butchering really. They were they were stabbed multiple times, both slit across the throats, which to me was a was a metaphor for shutting them up. Um, I don’t want to hear anything anymore. Um, it seemed as though this was a 32-year-old man living at home who had been somewhat infantilized, you know, brought along as a third wheel to a Hollywood party full of very successful, accomplished, famous people. And um you talk about the difference be because you um the savagery. It was a butcher a butchering really. They were they were stabbed multiple times, both slit across the throats, which to me was a was a metaphor for shutting them up. Um, I don’t want to hear anything anymore. Um, it seemed as though this was a 32-year-old man living at home who had been somewhat infantilized, you know, brought along as a third wheel to a Hollywood party full of very successful, accomplished, famous people. And um you talk about the difference be because you
30. 17:11 know the the the reputation that the Rhiners do have in Hollywood is of very convivial uh you know pillars of the community all of that. I would imagine in cases of paraside again I’m not talking about this one specifically that dynamic you just described where the outwardfacing reputation is one of near perfection. what is going on inside the house is perceived as the child radically different to the point where no one would ever believe what that child has to say. >> Yeah, this is a name we call it uh know the the the reputation that the Rhiners do have in Hollywood is of very convivial uh you know pillars of the community all of that. I would imagine in cases of paraside again I’m not talking about this one specifically that dynamic you just described where the outwardfacing reputation is one of near perfection. what is going on inside the house is perceived as the child radically different to the point where no one would ever believe what that child has to say. >> Yeah, this is a name we call it uh
31. 17:47 pseudo hostile and pseudo mutual families. families which are internally hostile >> where the dynamics internally involve antagonism and conflict and competition and envy and rage. But outwardly the families present mutuality, a a united front of cohesion and love and compassion and empathy and affection and you know so this contrast and this this is known as pseudo mutual pseudohostile family but I think I don’t want to mislead the viewers >> at least not on your show you know. pseudo hostile and pseudo mutual families. families which are internally hostile >> where the dynamics internally involve antagonism and conflict and competition and envy and rage. But outwardly the families present mutuality, a a united front of cohesion and love and compassion and empathy and affection and you know so this contrast and this this is known as pseudo mutual pseudohostile family but I think I don’t want to mislead the viewers >> at least not on your show you know.
32. 18:25 >> Um >> of course not. >> Yeah right. So um I want to make clear that I’m describing one type of killer, one type of parasite parasite parasite >> and there’s another type. >> Yes. >> So the type that I’ve described is the most common. These are people these are teenagers without the criminal record. They’re highly pro-social. They are loners but they are people pleasers. They are very mellow and obscuous and obesent and and so on so forth. They may abuse substances, but >> Um >> of course not. >> Yeah right. So um I want to make clear that I’m describing one type of killer, one type of parasite parasite parasite >> and there’s another type. >> Yes. >> So the type that I’ve described is the most common. These are people these are teenagers without the criminal record. They’re highly pro-social. They are loners but they are people pleasers. They are very mellow and obscuous and obesent and and so on so forth. They may abuse substances, but
33. 19:04 they do it in order to escape reality which they find intolerable and unbearable. >> Deep inside they’re good people, truly good people. And they reach a point of a breaking point because they’re weak, constitutionally weak. They reach a breaking point and they kill the parents. Sam, what you just said though, I need you to go a little deeper on that because I think people are going to have a very hard time squaring that. You just said they are fundamentally good people. >> Yes. Well, that’s one plus that’s one they do it in order to escape reality which they find intolerable and unbearable. >> Deep inside they’re good people, truly good people. And they reach a point of a breaking point because they’re weak, constitutionally weak. They reach a breaking point and they kill the parents. Sam, what you just said though, I need you to go a little deeper on that because I think people are going to have a very hard time squaring that. You just said they are fundamentally good people. >> Yes. Well, that’s one plus that’s one
34. 19:32 group. >> But but let’s let’s get let’s unpack that just a little little bit. No, >> please explain how someone could be described as a fundamentally good person who kills their parents. >> Even good people commit crimes and even good people do evil deeds. Everyone is a breaking point. Circumstances, the environment, interactions with other people, expectations, social pressure, c pressures, cultural uh cultural context. We we all have a boiling point. We all have a a breaking point. Um we we we group. >> But but let’s let’s get let’s unpack that just a little little bit. No, >> please explain how someone could be described as a fundamentally good person who kills their parents. >> Even good people commit crimes and even good people do evil deeds. Everyone is a breaking point. Circumstances, the environment, interactions with other people, expectations, social pressure, c pressures, cultural uh cultural context. We we all have a boiling point. We all have a a breaking point. Um we we we
35. 20:09 like to believe that it’s not true. Like if I were to ask you, tell me, I would never kill another person. I would never murder someone. >> I’m sorry. That would be counterfactual. That would be that would be that’s untrue. So what is happening with these with these uh children? These are these are children. These are teenagers. >> What’s happening with them? They experience the parental environment as as I said intolerable, unbearable, overbearing, abusive, doineering, like to believe that it’s not true. Like if I were to ask you, tell me, I would never kill another person. I would never murder someone. >> I’m sorry. That would be counterfactual. That would be that would be that’s untrue. So what is happening with these with these uh children? These are these are children. These are teenagers. >> What’s happening with them? They experience the parental environment as as I said intolerable, unbearable, overbearing, abusive, doineering,
36. 20:43 threatening. They need to they need to escape. But because they lack resources, they lack the wordw. They are not efficacious, they don’t know how to accomplish things, they are they are highly dependent on other people for the regulation of their sense of selfworth. They derive their identity from other people. They have what I call a hive mind because they are so broken and so damaged to start with. there the only way the only method of escape they can conceive of is to get rid of the of these gods who are threatening. They need to they need to escape. But because they lack resources, they lack the wordw. They are not efficacious, they don’t know how to accomplish things, they are they are highly dependent on other people for the regulation of their sense of selfworth. They derive their identity from other people. They have what I call a hive mind because they are so broken and so damaged to start with. there the only way the only method of escape they can conceive of is to get rid of the of these gods who are
37. 21:20 tormenting them. So there is a discrepancy between the interpretation of the situation the interpretation of the environment of the inter the interpersonal relationships and what’s really happening. These people these teenagers are immed and immersed in fantasy and the fantasy is very dark. and very um nightmarish and they believe the only way to to wake up is to kill the the people who they identify as the sources of the fantasy, the sources of of a nightmare. >> Sam, is there I’m sorry. Is there any tormenting them. So there is a discrepancy between the interpretation of the situation the interpretation of the environment of the inter the interpersonal relationships and what’s really happening. These people these teenagers are immed and immersed in fantasy and the fantasy is very dark. and very um nightmarish and they believe the only way to to wake up is to kill the the people who they identify as the sources of the fantasy, the sources of of a nightmare. >> Sam, is there I’m sorry. Is there any
38. 21:57 data on what um a a parasidal uh offender thinks is going to happen once they actually do murder the parents? You know, you’re talking about this fantasy that they will be free when the truth is they’re going to spend the rest of their lives either in a mental institution or behind bars. So, what what is going on in the mind at that moment? >> We actually do have studies, quite a few. >> Mhm. and they show pretty conclusively that they believe that they will have a different life. Now, as far as as you data on what um a a parasidal uh offender thinks is going to happen once they actually do murder the parents? You know, you’re talking about this fantasy that they will be free when the truth is they’re going to spend the rest of their lives either in a mental institution or behind bars. So, what what is going on in the mind at that moment? >> We actually do have studies, quite a few. >> Mhm. and they show pretty conclusively that they believe that they will have a different life. Now, as far as as you
39. 22:33 and I go, prison or mental asylum is a bad alternative. They would beg to disagree. >> Really, >> they would consider any change preferable to the status quo. So they um the the rage and the anger are disregulating in the sense that they remove inhibitions and they cause these teenagers to simply lash out lose control of themselves which they it’s it’s very lowered as it is and they form an identity a new identity by getting rid of the parents. It’s a it’s a kind of externalized ritualized identity and I go, prison or mental asylum is a bad alternative. They would beg to disagree. >> Really, >> they would consider any change preferable to the status quo. So they um the the rage and the anger are disregulating in the sense that they remove inhibitions and they cause these teenagers to simply lash out lose control of themselves which they it’s it’s very lowered as it is and they form an identity a new identity by getting rid of the parents. It’s a it’s a kind of externalized ritualized identity
40. 23:17 formation. You mentioned the multiple stabs and so on so forth. >> It’s a ritual. >> It’s the equivalent it’s a right of passage. It’s the equivalent of a religious right. >> It’s that is fascinating. >> It’s a liinal liinal transition between one life and another. Now we have in many religions ceremonies that involve bloodletting. I was just going to say bloodletting. >> Yeah. Many we have many ceremonies that involve bloodletting or other uses formation. You mentioned the multiple stabs and so on so forth. >> It’s a ritual. >> It’s the equivalent it’s a right of passage. It’s the equivalent of a religious right. >> It’s that is fascinating. >> It’s a liinal liinal transition between one life and another. Now we have in many religions ceremonies that involve bloodletting. I was just going to say bloodletting. >> Yeah. Many we have many ceremonies that involve bloodletting or other uses
41. 23:49 usages and and >> mortifications. >> Yes. Blood is is a cleanser. Blood blood is is a is a cathartic thing. So by multiply stabbing your parents and by shedding visible blood ostentatiously all over the place and so on, you are engaging in an act of unadulteration, in an act of purification and cleansing and you will emerge from this firestorm a newly a new person, a newly created entity and and so on. And it doesn’t really matter. The physical environment doesn’t really matter because as I’ve usages and and >> mortifications. >> Yes. Blood is is a cleanser. Blood blood is is a is a cathartic thing. So by multiply stabbing your parents and by shedding visible blood ostentatiously all over the place and so on, you are engaging in an act of unadulteration, in an act of purification and cleansing and you will emerge from this firestorm a newly a new person, a newly created entity and and so on. And it doesn’t really matter. The physical environment doesn’t really matter because as I’ve
42. 24:28 just indicated, these people live inside their heads, >> not outside. >> They’re totally internalized. They are they are imured. I use the word imbued, not even immersed within the fantasy. They’re buried in the fantasy. They’re unable to exit. And but this is one class of uh parasidal killers. >> Well, you know, you say it’s it’s it’s mostly uh adolescent men. Um, but it it also makes me think of of a a case that shocked America and we talk about it to just indicated, these people live inside their heads, >> not outside. >> They’re totally internalized. They are they are imured. I use the word imbued, not even immersed within the fantasy. They’re buried in the fantasy. They’re unable to exit. And but this is one class of uh parasidal killers. >> Well, you know, you say it’s it’s it’s mostly uh adolescent men. Um, but it it also makes me think of of a a case that shocked America and we talk about it to
43. 24:58 this day. Lizzie Bordon with the axe, the bloodletting, the ritualistic >> uh rebirth as it were, demonic though it may be. Yes. >> Yes. Lizzy Bordon belongs to the second group. The second group which are the minority. >> Mhm. These are people who are interested in money. They’re greedy. A varicious. >> The Menendez brothers perhaps. >> Sorry. >> The Menendez brothers perhaps. >> The Menendez brothers. Blackwell in the United Kingdom. Lizy Bour was interested this day. Lizzie Bordon with the axe, the bloodletting, the ritualistic >> uh rebirth as it were, demonic though it may be. Yes. >> Yes. Lizzy Bordon belongs to the second group. The second group which are the minority. >> Mhm. These are people who are interested in money. They’re greedy. A varicious. >> The Menendez brothers perhaps. >> Sorry. >> The Menendez brothers perhaps. >> The Menendez brothers. Blackwell in the United Kingdom. Lizy Bour was interested
44. 25:30 in money. >> Mhm. >> Uh to this very day, scholars believe that she killed her parents because they refuse her. She asked for some things and they refused to to get these things. Um really >> used to give her the money. So there’s money, entitlement. The money is intimately connected with a sense of entitlement. I I deserve the best. I deserve the most. I deserve it now. >> There’s no ability to postpone gratification. And if I don’t get it, the people who are frustrating me need to be removed. in money. >> Mhm. >> Uh to this very day, scholars believe that she killed her parents because they refuse her. She asked for some things and they refused to to get these things. Um really >> used to give her the money. So there’s money, entitlement. The money is intimately connected with a sense of entitlement. I I deserve the best. I deserve the most. I deserve it now. >> There’s no ability to postpone gratification. And if I don’t get it, the people who are frustrating me need to be removed.
45. 26:01 So there is frustration, aggression. It was first described by Dard in 1939. There is an immediate transition from frustration to aggression because of the entitlement, the narcissistic entitlement. These people are narcissists basically. >> Yes. >> And they want money and they have aloplastic defenses in the sense that they blame others. They blame their parents. They blame other people >> for their own misbehavior and misconduct. So they would say, “I killed them, but they they had it coming. They So there is frustration, aggression. It was first described by Dard in 1939. There is an immediate transition from frustration to aggression because of the entitlement, the narcissistic entitlement. These people are narcissists basically. >> Yes. >> And they want money and they have aloplastic defenses in the sense that they blame others. They blame their parents. They blame other people >> for their own misbehavior and misconduct. So they would say, “I killed them, but they they had it coming. They
46. 26:33 deserved it. They constantly frustrated me and abused me. They didn’t recognize my talents and and they didn’t recognize my need for the money. I needed the money to become someone. So, they have this grandio inflated fantastic self-concept which gives rise to entitlement which translates immediately usually to material benefits including money and then they kill in order to obtain the money which they think they they deserve. And so the parents are cast in the role of thieves. The parents are the criminals because deserved it. They constantly frustrated me and abused me. They didn’t recognize my talents and and they didn’t recognize my need for the money. I needed the money to become someone. So, they have this grandio inflated fantastic self-concept which gives rise to entitlement which translates immediately usually to material benefits including money and then they kill in order to obtain the money which they think they they deserve. And so the parents are cast in the role of thieves. The parents are the criminals because
47. 27:11 this money belongs to the killer, not to the parents. >> Mhm. >> And so you you have this in in similar situations where no there’s no parasite. But for example, when when custody is contested or guardianship is contested. >> Mhm. >> And the child says this money is mine. My parents are in control of the money, but that’s unjust. That’s a crime. This money belongs to me, you know. And so you So this is a kind of sublimated refined parasite. The parents reputation this money belongs to the killer, not to the parents. >> Mhm. >> And so you you have this in in similar situations where no there’s no parasite. But for example, when when custody is contested or guardianship is contested. >> Mhm. >> And the child says this money is mine. My parents are in control of the money, but that’s unjust. That’s a crime. This money belongs to me, you know. And so you So this is a kind of sublimated refined parasite. The parents reputation
48. 27:46 is tarnished. The parent >> Yes. I was I was going to ask you about other forms of parasite that are not literal murder. >> Yeah. >> The ways in which the children obl just completely obliterate the parents. You know, we we were we were talking about this not too long ago, and I I think it’s not unrelated. This this trend of going quote unquote no contact. I have exised you from my life is a form of spiritual emotional murder. >> There are many ways to kill your parents. Yeah. is tarnished. The parent >> Yes. I was I was going to ask you about other forms of parasite that are not literal murder. >> Yeah. >> The ways in which the children obl just completely obliterate the parents. You know, we we were we were talking about this not too long ago, and I I think it’s not unrelated. This this trend of going quote unquote no contact. I have exised you from my life is a form of spiritual emotional murder. >> There are many ways to kill your parents. Yeah.
49. 28:14 >> Yes. >> The stupid ways to kill them. I mean, physically, but there are many other ways to kill them. Parents describe excruciating pain when for example they are abandoned and rejected by their children, ignored by their children. Uh there is reputational assassination, a reputational cost involved in in raising children who later become your enemies. >> So there are many ways to kill the to kill the parent. >> And in today’s world there is there is no presumption of innocence when it >> Yes. >> The stupid ways to kill them. I mean, physically, but there are many other ways to kill them. Parents describe excruciating pain when for example they are abandoned and rejected by their children, ignored by their children. Uh there is reputational assassination, a reputational cost involved in in raising children who later become your enemies. >> So there are many ways to kill the to kill the parent. >> And in today’s world there is there is no presumption of innocence when it
50. 28:45 comes to parents. parents are automatically and immediately guilty until proven until proven otherwise. Rare >> I blame Oprah. >> I blame Freud. >> I think >> we can meet in the middle. I get you there. I do. >> I think he’s a bit older than Oprah. And um so >> I blame Oprah for the mainstreaming of it. You know, more people sadly in today’s world are familiar with the teachings of Oprah rather than the writings and works of Sigman Freud. >> Right. comes to parents. parents are automatically and immediately guilty until proven until proven otherwise. Rare >> I blame Oprah. >> I blame Freud. >> I think >> we can meet in the middle. I get you there. I do. >> I think he’s a bit older than Oprah. And um so >> I blame Oprah for the mainstreaming of it. You know, more people sadly in today’s world are familiar with the teachings of Oprah rather than the writings and works of Sigman Freud. >> Right.
51. 29:13 >> But um I I absolutely agree with you. Go on. By the way, in the United Kingdom, uh we’re talking the second class of killers. The first class of killers, as I said, are are people who are whose fantasy has taken over. They have a fantasy life which has taken over reality. And in this fantasy life, they are imprisoned and incarcerated and confined by monsters. >> These monster monsters never let them become, never let them be happy, never let them realize and actualize themselves. So they have to kill these >> But um I I absolutely agree with you. Go on. By the way, in the United Kingdom, uh we’re talking the second class of killers. The first class of killers, as I said, are are people who are whose fantasy has taken over. They have a fantasy life which has taken over reality. And in this fantasy life, they are imprisoned and incarcerated and confined by monsters. >> These monster monsters never let them become, never let them be happy, never let them realize and actualize themselves. So they have to kill these
52. 29:44 monsters. That’s one group. The second group simply want money. They simply want the money because they feel they’re entitled to it. They have grandiose conceptions and so on so forth. And uh these people are mentally ill. They usually have personality disorders. >> Mhm. >> And they abuse substances. >> Mhm. >> Now, shockingly, a court in the United Kingdom um ruled that a personality disorder is a mitigating circumstance. There’s there’s a guy called Blackwell. monsters. That’s one group. The second group simply want money. They simply want the money because they feel they’re entitled to it. They have grandiose conceptions and so on so forth. And uh these people are mentally ill. They usually have personality disorders. >> Mhm. >> And they abuse substances. >> Mhm. >> Now, shockingly, a court in the United Kingdom um ruled that a personality disorder is a mitigating circumstance. There’s there’s a guy called Blackwell.
53. 30:15 He killed both his parents cruy as is the case usually >> and the judge said well he’s mentally ill. He has narcissistic personality disorder. So >> that’s the concern that’s visav the rise Riner case right now that that the the mental illness aspect will overshadow everything. The Mcnotton uh rules guilty guilty by uh by insanity and not guilty by virtue of insanity as the McNotton rules are very clear. Can you tell the difference between right and wrong? All these people can tell the difference between He killed both his parents cruy as is the case usually >> and the judge said well he’s mentally ill. He has narcissistic personality disorder. So >> that’s the concern that’s visav the rise Riner case right now that that the the mental illness aspect will overshadow everything. The Mcnotton uh rules guilty guilty by uh by insanity and not guilty by virtue of insanity as the McNotton rules are very clear. Can you tell the difference between right and wrong? All these people can tell the difference between
54. 30:49 right and wrong. >> They just don’t care. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Is there an there is an impulse you couldn’t control? That’s extremely rare in parasite. It’s usually not impulsive. Actually the perpetrator has been thinking about it for for years sometimes >> imagining it relishing it uh you know experiencing it vicariously via his his or her imagination or something >> probably coddling the fantasy because that the anticipation is probably as as right and wrong. >> They just don’t care. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Is there an there is an impulse you couldn’t control? That’s extremely rare in parasite. It’s usually not impulsive. Actually the perpetrator has been thinking about it for for years sometimes >> imagining it relishing it uh you know experiencing it vicariously via his his or her imagination or something >> probably coddling the fantasy because that the anticipation is probably as as
55. 31:19 fun if not more so than the actual doing and I I don’t mean that in a flip way but I will not be surprised at all to learn that in this case that was an extremely sick house that um this this this was a a a problem that was known within the within the walls and and the intimate me family, you know, external family members and friends, the satellites around it and that this probably was something that he had been fantasizing about. You know, maybe we’ll find his journals, maybe we’ll find fun if not more so than the actual doing and I I don’t mean that in a flip way but I will not be surprised at all to learn that in this case that was an extremely sick house that um this this this was a a a problem that was known within the within the walls and and the intimate me family, you know, external family members and friends, the satellites around it and that this probably was something that he had been fantasizing about. You know, maybe we’ll find his journals, maybe we’ll find
56. 32:19 is um kind of living and reliving the experience long before it had occurred. So I want to go back to the grim brothers story. >> Yeah. >> The mother’s role is um is to be is to be present for the child to take care of the child’s needs, shelter, food and so on. And the father’s role is to protect. Yet in the green in Hensel and Gretle the story they both fail. The mother abandons the children twice by the way not once. And the father is not there. He lives far away in a cabin which is is um kind of living and reliving the experience long before it had occurred. So I want to go back to the grim brothers story. >> Yeah. >> The mother’s role is um is to be is to be present for the child to take care of the child’s needs, shelter, food and so on. And the father’s role is to protect. Yet in the green in Hensel and Gretle the story they both fail. The mother abandons the children twice by the way not once. And the father is not there. He lives far away in a cabin which is
57. 32:55 inaccessible. They have to ride ride the back of a duck to get there and it’s a talking duck. Don’t ask or so. So So what this story is telling us actually is that the expectations of the children are crucial when it comes to parasite. I I insist that the children in the story commit do commit parasite. They committed by they committed by proxy. They killed the witch. But if you look at the witch at the role of the witch in the story, she is a mother. >> She gives them shelter. She gives them inaccessible. They have to ride ride the back of a duck to get there and it’s a talking duck. Don’t ask or so. So So what this story is telling us actually is that the expectations of the children are crucial when it comes to parasite. I I insist that the children in the story commit do commit parasite. They committed by they committed by proxy. They killed the witch. But if you look at the witch at the role of the witch in the story, she is a mother. >> She gives them shelter. She gives them
58. 33:36 food. >> She gives them a bed to sleep in. She is totally maternal. >> Mhm. >> And then they kill her. >> And so I think it’s like killing the parents by proxy, vicariously, you know. >> And so and why do they kill? Why? Why is this parasidal instinct or drive in the story? Because the parents have failed them. The children perceive the parents as having failed them, having frustrated them and disappointed them, having not fulfilled the classical parental roles. food. >> She gives them a bed to sleep in. She is totally maternal. >> Mhm. >> And then they kill her. >> And so I think it’s like killing the parents by proxy, vicariously, you know. >> And so and why do they kill? Why? Why is this parasidal instinct or drive in the story? Because the parents have failed them. The children perceive the parents as having failed them, having frustrated them and disappointed them, having not fulfilled the classical parental roles.
59. 34:09 This is the case with all parasidal killers. They perceive the parents as having failed them in some way. um the psychopathic ones or the narcissistic ones, they say the parents failed me. They didn’t give me enough money. And the the less pernitious ones, the less insidious ones, less evil ones, they say the parents have failed me because they wouldn’t let me become. They wouldn’t let me be me. >> They did not really love me. They loved maybe what I represented or they loved what I could have become or This is the case with all parasidal killers. They perceive the parents as having failed them in some way. um the psychopathic ones or the narcissistic ones, they say the parents failed me. They didn’t give me enough money. And the the less pernitious ones, the less insidious ones, less evil ones, they say the parents have failed me because they wouldn’t let me become. They wouldn’t let me be me. >> They did not really love me. They loved maybe what I represented or they loved what I could have become or
60. 34:44 they loved what I should have become but they never loved me. Now back to the rhiners the father didn’t have to actually do anything. It’s it’s sufficient that he was successful and accomplished. >> Yeah. >> That in itself is a trigger. >> That in itself I think is an act of aggression. Perceived aggression. Yes. His very presence is a constant reminder of failure and inadequacy. >> Mhm. >> His very success, his very accomplishments. The very fact that they they loved what I should have become but they never loved me. Now back to the rhiners the father didn’t have to actually do anything. It’s it’s sufficient that he was successful and accomplished. >> Yeah. >> That in itself is a trigger. >> That in itself I think is an act of aggression. Perceived aggression. Yes. His very presence is a constant reminder of failure and inadequacy. >> Mhm. >> His very success, his very accomplishments. The very fact that they
61. 35:18 had a circle of friends while evidently Carl Rhina didn’t. So, and so the child, it grades. It’s constantly grates. It’s a process of friction. It’s in in it’s incremental. It’s invisible. And yet the child is being corroded and eroded to the point that all the defenses crumble, all the inhibitions fall away. And the child honestly and truly believes that the only way to survive is to get rid of the par parental figures. They have become what we call in psychology objects. They have become the enemy. And had a circle of friends while evidently Carl Rhina didn’t. So, and so the child, it grades. It’s constantly grates. It’s a process of friction. It’s in in it’s incremental. It’s invisible. And yet the child is being corroded and eroded to the point that all the defenses crumble, all the inhibitions fall away. And the child honestly and truly believes that the only way to survive is to get rid of the par parental figures. They have become what we call in psychology objects. They have become the enemy. And
62. 35:59 um if if parents don’t know how to manage these situations uh I don’t think par I mean parasite is not that common but the equivalent of parasite would be the disappearance of the child from your life. >> Mhm. >> The the vanishing of the child. The child will vanish simply one way or another. >> Sam to unfortunately I mean I could talk to you about this for hours and hours and I’m sure we’ll revisit it as this as this story unfolds. To that point, are there, you know, you um if if parents don’t know how to manage these situations uh I don’t think par I mean parasite is not that common but the equivalent of parasite would be the disappearance of the child from your life. >> Mhm. >> The the vanishing of the child. The child will vanish simply one way or another. >> Sam to unfortunately I mean I could talk to you about this for hours and hours and I’m sure we’ll revisit it as this as this story unfolds. To that point, are there, you know, you
63. 36:30 say so much of this is invisible, is unobservable, undetectable. Are there any signs, is there any data that tells us what parents can look out for that might clue them into this kind of burgeoning rage within a a child. >> Substance abuse. >> Substance abuse is is a great sign. Mhm. >> experimentation with identities >> which is out of the normal. >> Mhm. >> I’m not necessarily talking about gender dysphoria and transgender and so on. But >> yeah, I was going to ask say so much of this is invisible, is unobservable, undetectable. Are there any signs, is there any data that tells us what parents can look out for that might clue them into this kind of burgeoning rage within a a child. >> Substance abuse. >> Substance abuse is is a great sign. Mhm. >> experimentation with identities >> which is out of the normal. >> Mhm. >> I’m not necessarily talking about gender dysphoria and transgender and so on. But >> yeah, I was going to ask
64. 37:07 >> when the child experiments with identities on a constant basis. This is a process known as moratorium. So it experiments on a constant basis and seems to be unable to settle on a single identity. M >> when the child rejects not the parental behavior but the parents themselves. When the child defines itself negative identity defines itself in contradiction to the parents as mutually exclusive entities have nothing to do with the parents refuses when the child becomes aggressive and >> when the child experiments with identities on a constant basis. This is a process known as moratorium. So it experiments on a constant basis and seems to be unable to settle on a single identity. M >> when the child rejects not the parental behavior but the parents themselves. When the child defines itself negative identity defines itself in contradiction to the parents as mutually exclusive entities have nothing to do with the parents refuses when the child becomes aggressive and
65. 37:38 violent out of context. >> Mhm. and begins to develop hypervigilance, begins to interpret innocuous acts and innocuate innocuous utterances and words as insults or slides or threats or attacks. So there’s a lot of this when the child becomes entitled and makes unreasonable demands on the resources of the parent. Could be money, could be time, could be energy, could be you know drive me to school every morning un otherwise I won’t go to school. entitlement is a major major warning warning sign. violent out of context. >> Mhm. and begins to develop hypervigilance, begins to interpret innocuous acts and innocuate innocuous utterances and words as insults or slides or threats or attacks. So there’s a lot of this when the child becomes entitled and makes unreasonable demands on the resources of the parent. Could be money, could be time, could be energy, could be you know drive me to school every morning un otherwise I won’t go to school. entitlement is a major major warning warning sign.
66. 38:11 Interest in weapons, guns and and so on definitely is a warning sign. And um but I think if you really are looking for something that is unequivocal, unamiguous and happens all the time, it’s this discrepancy that I mentioned between the facade that the family puts outside outwardly public facing and what’s really happening. The parents know this. They know that it’s a facade. They know it’s fake. the the parents are aware that the image of the family the this curation you know curation of the Interest in weapons, guns and and so on definitely is a warning sign. And um but I think if you really are looking for something that is unequivocal, unamiguous and happens all the time, it’s this discrepancy that I mentioned between the facade that the family puts outside outwardly public facing and what’s really happening. The parents know this. They know that it’s a facade. They know it’s fake. the the parents are aware that the image of the family the this curation you know curation of the
67. 38:53 image of the family >> now so prevalent with social media >> yes they know it’s not true >> falsity the major sign in my view is falsity when it’s false when it’s fake when it’s pretend when internally there’s conflict and antagonism and resentment and frustration and hatred and aggression and fighting and and then when you go out when the family goes out it’s all wine and roses >> it’s all wonderful and there’s a lot of love and compassion and empathy even the image of the family >> now so prevalent with social media >> yes they know it’s not true >> falsity the major sign in my view is falsity when it’s false when it’s fake when it’s pretend when internally there’s conflict and antagonism and resentment and frustration and hatred and aggression and fighting and and then when you go out when the family goes out it’s all wine and roses >> it’s all wonderful and there’s a lot of love and compassion and empathy even the
68. 39:26 rhiners and I’m not trying to say that I know anything about them beyond what’s what I’ve read but even the rhiners have presented what we call a pseudo mutual facade >> like look how much I love my son >> despite all his brokenness and his horrible inexcusable behavior. Look how much I’m giving him. Look how much I’m investing in him. Look how much Look, look. It’s about the look. It’s about attracting attention. It’s about managing impressions. It’s all rhiners and I’m not trying to say that I know anything about them beyond what’s what I’ve read but even the rhiners have presented what we call a pseudo mutual facade >> like look how much I love my son >> despite all his brokenness and his horrible inexcusable behavior. Look how much I’m giving him. Look how much I’m investing in him. Look how much Look, look. It’s about the look. It’s about attracting attention. It’s about managing impressions. It’s all
69. 39:59 artificial. It’s all about appearances, not about substance. >> Agreed. You know, I think about this with the um the there’s a lot of talk about the film that Rob made with Nick and it was called Being Charlie and I believe it was co-written by Nick and it was meant to try to usher Nick into Rob’s world of successful film making, successful artistic endeavor, but it was also about Nick’s brokenness, Nick’s addictions, Nick’s inability to get his [ __ ] together. And then the two of them artificial. It’s all about appearances, not about substance. >> Agreed. You know, I think about this with the um the there’s a lot of talk about the film that Rob made with Nick and it was called Being Charlie and I believe it was co-written by Nick and it was meant to try to usher Nick into Rob’s world of successful film making, successful artistic endeavor, but it was also about Nick’s brokenness, Nick’s addictions, Nick’s inability to get his [ __ ] together. And then the two of them
70. 40:33 go on this media tour in which we see openly hostile emotions and statements and expressions coming from Nick and you know it’s sort of treated like how could this ingrate you know be such a br and it’s it’s kind of like well if you if you were the broken one and your Oscar nominated father was making a movie about how [ __ ] up you are you might have some rage too. And I’m not blaming the victim in any way. I’m just saying this is a very very nuanced situation. It’s not go on this media tour in which we see openly hostile emotions and statements and expressions coming from Nick and you know it’s sort of treated like how could this ingrate you know be such a br and it’s it’s kind of like well if you if you were the broken one and your Oscar nominated father was making a movie about how [ __ ] up you are you might have some rage too. And I’m not blaming the victim in any way. I’m just saying this is a very very nuanced situation. It’s not
71. 41:03 the binary black and white that we’re getting from the media. >> No, it’s not. And when you have this situation of a saint, a saint, >> a saintly father figure is a saint. >> I mean to have suffered to have suffered Nick um to have suffered his son for so long >> that requires nothing short of saintthood. >> So he is a saint and his son is the heretic. Mhm. >> His son is the It’s a religious morality play. All good, all bad. >> Yes. >> It’s a religious morality play where Rob the binary black and white that we’re getting from the media. >> No, it’s not. And when you have this situation of a saint, a saint, >> a saintly father figure is a saint. >> I mean to have suffered to have suffered Nick um to have suffered his son for so long >> that requires nothing short of saintthood. >> So he is a saint and his son is the heretic. Mhm. >> His son is the It’s a religious morality play. All good, all bad. >> Yes. >> It’s a religious morality play where Rob
72. 41:36 is in the role of the all good parent and and his son is in the role of the all bad ungrateful um vicious aggressive son. The thing is that throughout all this there’s still hope. hope uh raises its ugly head if you wish. >> And what I mean to say is the child still hopes. The child still hopes the children still hope that they can gratify the parent. The child still hopes that he can somehow meet the parents expectations. The child wants to fit in the parents world. The child wants to emulate and is in the role of the all good parent and and his son is in the role of the all bad ungrateful um vicious aggressive son. The thing is that throughout all this there’s still hope. hope uh raises its ugly head if you wish. >> And what I mean to say is the child still hopes. The child still hopes the children still hope that they can gratify the parent. The child still hopes that he can somehow meet the parents expectations. The child wants to fit in the parents world. The child wants to emulate and
73. 42:18 imitate the parent. The child wants to become the parent. This is a process known as modeling. In parasite, modeling gets out of control. Whereas in normal healthy families, if you ever come across, let me know. There is the modeling involves the emulation and imitation and adoption of highly functional behaviors of the parent. In this kind of families, modeling involve the internalization of the duplicity. >> The the modeling involves I’m going to deny myself in order to make my father imitate the parent. The child wants to become the parent. This is a process known as modeling. In parasite, modeling gets out of control. Whereas in normal healthy families, if you ever come across, let me know. There is the modeling involves the emulation and imitation and adoption of highly functional behaviors of the parent. In this kind of families, modeling involve the internalization of the duplicity. >> The the modeling involves I’m going to deny myself in order to make my father
74. 42:56 happy. I’m going to not be there is a perception by the child that the expectation of the parent is h for the child to not be that the child is some kind of disappointment. Mhm. >> some kind of a of a an experiment gone or >> some kind of a bankruptcy, a lost endeavor, an enterprise, you know. So the child says the only way I can gratify my parent, the only way I can meet my parents approval is by not being. And the child is hellbent on denying itself, repressing itself, reshaping itself. Child becomes a happy. I’m going to not be there is a perception by the child that the expectation of the parent is h for the child to not be that the child is some kind of disappointment. Mhm. >> some kind of a of a an experiment gone or >> some kind of a bankruptcy, a lost endeavor, an enterprise, you know. So the child says the only way I can gratify my parent, the only way I can meet my parents approval is by not being. And the child is hellbent on denying itself, repressing itself, reshaping itself. Child becomes a
75. 43:36 shape-shifting thing. And in adolescence this is exceedingly dangerous because anyhow there is identity diffusion. At the moment of parasite at the very second that the child engages in the act there is dissociation the person is no longer there is absolutely not there. the something automatic takes over. A kind of animalistic survival instinct. A wish to get rid of this nagging, intrusive, overbearing um um offcating and and and and suffocating presence which the parents have become and the child is unable to shape-shifting thing. And in adolescence this is exceedingly dangerous because anyhow there is identity diffusion. At the moment of parasite at the very second that the child engages in the act there is dissociation the person is no longer there is absolutely not there. the something automatic takes over. A kind of animalistic survival instinct. A wish to get rid of this nagging, intrusive, overbearing um um offcating and and and and suffocating presence which the parents have become and the child is unable to
76. 44:20 face what he or she is doing. Usually it’s a he and then the child dissociates completely. We know this from studies. We’ve spoken to these children afterwards. these killers and they describe moments of oblivion, lost time and then they wake up kind of wake up. >> Do they remember most of them committing the crime or is it a blackout state? It’s a kind of blackout state. Uh at least what’s that’s what the majority of them claim and we do know from similar situations not involving parasite but we face what he or she is doing. Usually it’s a he and then the child dissociates completely. We know this from studies. We’ve spoken to these children afterwards. these killers and they describe moments of oblivion, lost time and then they wake up kind of wake up. >> Do they remember most of them committing the crime or is it a blackout state? It’s a kind of blackout state. Uh at least what’s that’s what the majority of them claim and we do know from similar situations not involving parasite but we
77. 44:50 know from traumatic situations that dissociation is very common but I think the dissociation in this case is extremely likely because the child learns to adopt dissociation as a survival mechanism as a coping strategy. Mhm. >> The father broadcasts to the child, as you are, you are not good enough. As you are, you’re a failure. As you are, you’re inadequate. As you are, you’re ruining my life. That’s a message. And so, the child says, “Okay, dad, I’m going to suspend myself. I’m going to know from traumatic situations that dissociation is very common but I think the dissociation in this case is extremely likely because the child learns to adopt dissociation as a survival mechanism as a coping strategy. Mhm. >> The father broadcasts to the child, as you are, you are not good enough. As you are, you’re a failure. As you are, you’re inadequate. As you are, you’re ruining my life. That’s a message. And so, the child says, “Okay, dad, I’m going to suspend myself. I’m going to
78. 45:24 kill myself. I’m going to not be. And I’m going to become anything you want me to be except myself.” And so the child is a lot huge experience with dissociation. Huge dissociation has become the main tool actually. And of course one way to accomplish dissociation is substance abuse. >> When you drink when you drink you drink to excess you dissociate. It’s called blackout or brown out. I mean brown out is previous stage. When you when you do drugs in some types of drugs there is kill myself. I’m going to not be. And I’m going to become anything you want me to be except myself.” And so the child is a lot huge experience with dissociation. Huge dissociation has become the main tool actually. And of course one way to accomplish dissociation is substance abuse. >> When you drink when you drink you drink to excess you dissociate. It’s called blackout or brown out. I mean brown out is previous stage. When you when you do drugs in some types of drugs there is
79. 45:57 dissociation. So this is artificially induced dissociation. But the child also does it habitually internally generated from the inside. Association becomes a defense. >> Mhm. >> And then when the moment comes to get rid of the parents who are the source of the dissociation, that would be the ultimate and last dissociation, the last frontier >> beyond which the child family believes that they’re finally going to become. And that is why all of them say, “I thought I would have a different life.” dissociation. So this is artificially induced dissociation. But the child also does it habitually internally generated from the inside. Association becomes a defense. >> Mhm. >> And then when the moment comes to get rid of the parents who are the source of the dissociation, that would be the ultimate and last dissociation, the last frontier >> beyond which the child family believes that they’re finally going to become. And that is why all of them say, “I thought I would have a different life.”
80. 46:30 Wow. Wow. >> I thought I would be different. >> I thought >> I mean literally all of them say say this. >> It’s unbelievable. You know, again, we’re not we’re we’re in no way saying that that the Riners are are to blame for for what happened to them. We are simply discussing with deep thought and nuance the the dynamics that can lead to, you know, again, I think the Roman Republic made parasite the the crime worse than all others. I mean, including infanticide Wow. Wow. >> I thought I would be different. >> I thought >> I mean literally all of them say say this. >> It’s unbelievable. You know, again, we’re not we’re we’re in no way saying that that the Riners are are to blame for for what happened to them. We are simply discussing with deep thought and nuance the the dynamics that can lead to, you know, again, I think the Roman Republic made parasite the the crime worse than all others. I mean, including infanticide
81. 46:59 probably because it is such an such a dark beating persistent part of what it is to be human. This urge, you know, and um I uh I really >> it’s the worst crime because you are killing yourself. When you kill your parents, you’re kill you’re killing yourself. >> Yeah, I had the same thought about that. >> They constitute a huge part of who you are. so huge that you know there’s no way of avoiding this truth that you’re actually committing suicide. >> You are. You are. And when you were probably because it is such an such a dark beating persistent part of what it is to be human. This urge, you know, and um I uh I really >> it’s the worst crime because you are killing yourself. When you kill your parents, you’re kill you’re killing yourself. >> Yeah, I had the same thought about that. >> They constitute a huge part of who you are. so huge that you know there’s no way of avoiding this truth that you’re actually committing suicide. >> You are. You are. And when you were
82. 47:28 talking about you know the the the adolescent quote unquote killing themselves in order to mold themselves to the the parental desire that too is a form of suicide. You know um there there there are all these acts of violence that take place that are not physical well before the paraside. >> Yeah. And um but I think we owe it to the viewers to emphasize again there’s a group of killers who are coldblooded psychopathic psychopathic narcissists. They don’t they haven’t gone through any talking about you know the the the adolescent quote unquote killing themselves in order to mold themselves to the the parental desire that too is a form of suicide. You know um there there there are all these acts of violence that take place that are not physical well before the paraside. >> Yeah. And um but I think we owe it to the viewers to emphasize again there’s a group of killers who are coldblooded psychopathic psychopathic narcissists. They don’t they haven’t gone through any
83. 48:02 of the dynamics that I’ve described. They are not good people. >> They are not people pleasers by any extension of the word of the phrase. >> They are entitled. They are cruel. They’re sadistic. They are the I’m not talking about these people. this and there is this group does exist and yes they kill for money basically that’s the overriding motive they kill for money >> they want to they want to abscond with the with the parents resources they regard the parents as obstacles and of the dynamics that I’ve described. They are not good people. >> They are not people pleasers by any extension of the word of the phrase. >> They are entitled. They are cruel. They’re sadistic. They are the I’m not talking about these people. this and there is this group does exist and yes they kill for money basically that’s the overriding motive they kill for money >> they want to they want to abscond with the with the parents resources they regard the parents as obstacles and
84. 48:32 these are the kind of people who would kill other people not only the parents >> yes >> there is no in this group of in this second group of killers there is no particular attachment to the parent the parent doesn’t doesn’t uh represent any special relationship ship. >> Mhm. >> There’s no bonding, there’s no love, there’s no they are just there and then they’re not there. You know, it happens and they these kind of people would trample on anyone who would stand in these are the kind of people who would kill other people not only the parents >> yes >> there is no in this group of in this second group of killers there is no particular attachment to the parent the parent doesn’t doesn’t uh represent any special relationship ship. >> Mhm. >> There’s no bonding, there’s no love, there’s no they are just there and then they’re not there. You know, it happens and they these kind of people would trample on anyone who would stand in
85. 48:58 their way to accomplishing goals. >> End of story. >> Sam, yet again, a fascinating fascinating conversation with references that sponsors to the Roman Republic. I you know I I uh I just love every time you’re with us and um we look forward to having you back on very soon. Thanks for joining us today at the nerve Sam. >> See you again this year. Thank you. >> Thank you. their way to accomplishing goals. >> End of story. >> Sam, yet again, a fascinating fascinating conversation with references that sponsors to the Roman Republic. I you know I I uh I just love every time you’re with us and um we look forward to having you back on very soon. Thanks for joining us today at the nerve Sam. >> See you again this year. Thank you. >> Thank you.