Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Post-TRAUMA: Expelled from Narcissist’s Shared Fantasy (Skopje Seminar Day 2, Lecture 2, May 2025)

1. 00:20 Okay, Shashanim, we left the poor narcissist spilling coffee all over himself and devaluing the internal object. Not necessarily in this order. So that was the internal object. So I mentioned to you that devaluing the external object internal object I’m sorry creates two types of dissonance. Dissonance number one. How could I have been so wrong about her? I idealized her and now I realize that she is not who I thought she was. So I have been wrong. Narcissists cannot admit to being wrong. It challenges their grandio Okay, Shashanim, we left the poor narcissist spilling coffee all over himself and devaluing the internal object. Not necessarily in this order. So that was the internal object. So I mentioned to you that devaluing the external object internal object I’m sorry creates two types of dissonance. Dissonance number one. How could I have been so wrong about her? I idealized her and now I realize that she is not who I thought she was. So I have been wrong. Narcissists cannot admit to being wrong. It challenges their grandio
2. 01:01 self-concept. Narcissists are never wrong. even when they’re wrong, especially when they’re wrong, they’re never wrong. That’s one dissonance. And the the other types of dissonance is that the narcissist is stuck with an internal object that is now bad or evil or an enemy, a per secondary internal object, or an internal object that is imperfect, less than perfect, which renders the narcissist less than perfect. Because the internal object, as the name implies, is part of who the narcissist self-concept. Narcissists are never wrong. even when they’re wrong, especially when they’re wrong, they’re never wrong. That’s one dissonance. And the the other types of dissonance is that the narcissist is stuck with an internal object that is now bad or evil or an enemy, a per secondary internal object, or an internal object that is imperfect, less than perfect, which renders the narcissist less than perfect. Because the internal object, as the name implies, is part of who the narcissist
3. 01:36 is. It’s internal. And if there is an imperfect internal anything, the narcissist is less than perfect. And of course, the narcissist self-concept is that of perfect perfection. So this creates dissonance. And the narcissist then attempts several ways to resolve the dissonance. The first way the narcissist devalues the external object. It’s not devaluation. It’s very misleading. But the narcissist, you remember that in the first phase early in the shared fantasy, the narcissist lovebomb love bomb the external object is. It’s internal. And if there is an imperfect internal anything, the narcissist is less than perfect. And of course, the narcissist self-concept is that of perfect perfection. So this creates dissonance. And the narcissist then attempts several ways to resolve the dissonance. The first way the narcissist devalues the external object. It’s not devaluation. It’s very misleading. But the narcissist, you remember that in the first phase early in the shared fantasy, the narcissist lovebomb love bomb the external object
4. 02:16 in order to make her conform to the idealized internal object. He tried to shape the external object to fit perfectly the internal object by communicating expectations and costs and so on so forth. He tried to somehow influence the traits the behaviors of the external object so that there’s no discrepancy and no challenge and no undermining of the internal object. That’s in the love bombing phase. A similar phase is happening now in the other direction. Rather than love bomb, the narcissist just bombs. in order to make her conform to the idealized internal object. He tried to shape the external object to fit perfectly the internal object by communicating expectations and costs and so on so forth. He tried to somehow influence the traits the behaviors of the external object so that there’s no discrepancy and no challenge and no undermining of the internal object. That’s in the love bombing phase. A similar phase is happening now in the other direction. Rather than love bomb, the narcissist just bombs.
5. 02:54 In this phase, the narcissist devalues the external object. But I similarly, it’s an attempt to force the external object to change so as it fits so as to fit the internal object. The internal object has changed from idealized to devalued. So the external object must change from ideal to devalued. So that’s the first attempt to resolve the inner conflict, the dissonance by changing the external object by communicating to the external object. Hey listen, the internal object in my mind of you, the internal object In this phase, the narcissist devalues the external object. But I similarly, it’s an attempt to force the external object to change so as it fits so as to fit the internal object. The internal object has changed from idealized to devalued. So the external object must change from ideal to devalued. So that’s the first attempt to resolve the inner conflict, the dissonance by changing the external object by communicating to the external object. Hey listen, the internal object in my mind of you, the internal object
6. 03:35 that represents you in my mind has changed. Please change accordingly. You should also change to fit the internal object. So this is devaluation. This is the phase of devaluation. When you’re idealized, you can do no no wrong. You are perfect. You’re intelligent. You’re irresistible. You are this and you’re that. You’re unprecedented. When you are idealized, when you’re devalued, you can do no right. You’re ugly. You’re stupid. You destroyed the narcissist’s life. that represents you in my mind has changed. Please change accordingly. You should also change to fit the internal object. So this is devaluation. This is the phase of devaluation. When you’re idealized, you can do no no wrong. You are perfect. You’re intelligent. You’re irresistible. You are this and you’re that. You’re unprecedented. When you are idealized, when you’re devalued, you can do no right. You’re ugly. You’re stupid. You destroyed the narcissist’s life.
7. 04:06 You’re an enemy. And so on so forth. In both cases, it’s not about you at all. It is just an attempt to avoid dissonance by fitting or molding external reality to conform to internal reality and then allowing the narcissist to again ignore external reality and go back inside. So this is devaluation and devaluation allows the narcissist to say okay I have devalued the ex the internal object I have devalued the external object so that it fits the internal object and now I can move on to separation. You’re an enemy. And so on so forth. In both cases, it’s not about you at all. It is just an attempt to avoid dissonance by fitting or molding external reality to conform to internal reality and then allowing the narcissist to again ignore external reality and go back inside. So this is devaluation and devaluation allows the narcissist to say okay I have devalued the ex the internal object I have devalued the external object so that it fits the internal object and now I can move on to separation.
8. 04:48 Separation is the discard. The discard phase is a phase that I introduced into the the cycle of narcissistic relationships. Before I came on the scene, there was only idealization devaluation. And I added the phase of discard. So it’s my baby. And in the dis the discard phase is the narcissist’s way of separating from mother. Mother has been devalued now. So it’s easy to separate from her. You not a big loss. Not a big loss to separate from a devalued object. It’s a big loss to separate from an idealized Separation is the discard. The discard phase is a phase that I introduced into the the cycle of narcissistic relationships. Before I came on the scene, there was only idealization devaluation. And I added the phase of discard. So it’s my baby. And in the dis the discard phase is the narcissist’s way of separating from mother. Mother has been devalued now. So it’s easy to separate from her. You not a big loss. Not a big loss to separate from a devalued object. It’s a big loss to separate from an idealized
9. 05:25 object. So having devalued the idealized object, the narcissist now is ready to separate from mother, from the new mother by discarding her. Again, remember the narcissist interacts first and foremost with an internal object. So the narcissist discards initially the internal object not the external object. Anyone who has been in a relationship with a narcissist knows that before the discard there was a period where the narcissist became absent, not interested, withdrawn, avoidant. sometimes physically going away, moving, object. So having devalued the idealized object, the narcissist now is ready to separate from mother, from the new mother by discarding her. Again, remember the narcissist interacts first and foremost with an internal object. So the narcissist discards initially the internal object not the external object. Anyone who has been in a relationship with a narcissist knows that before the discard there was a period where the narcissist became absent, not interested, withdrawn, avoidant. sometimes physically going away, moving,
10. 06:08 moving out or having affairs or you know this is the internal discard. The internal object has been discarded. But having discarded the internal object again there is a discrepancy a divergence between the internal condition the internal state and the external state. The internal object has been discarded but the external object is still there which creates a dissonance. So the narcissist needs to discard you physically as well in order to realign the internal object with the external object. And here the real moving out or having affairs or you know this is the internal discard. The internal object has been discarded. But having discarded the internal object again there is a discrepancy a divergence between the internal condition the internal state and the external state. The internal object has been discarded but the external object is still there which creates a dissonance. So the narcissist needs to discard you physically as well in order to realign the internal object with the external object. And here the real
11. 06:50 trouble starts when the narcissist discards the internal object. What is he discarding? He’s discarding his internalized mother. is discarding a mother figure and this immediately creates separation insecurity. Separation insecurity is the clinical term for what online they call abandonment anxiety or separation anxiety. The clinical term is separation insecurity. So the narcissist when he discards the internal object and then the external but even in the early phase when he discards the internal he has has trouble starts when the narcissist discards the internal object. What is he discarding? He’s discarding his internalized mother. is discarding a mother figure and this immediately creates separation insecurity. Separation insecurity is the clinical term for what online they call abandonment anxiety or separation anxiety. The clinical term is separation insecurity. So the narcissist when he discards the internal object and then the external but even in the early phase when he discards the internal he has has
12. 07:30 lost his mother it’s a mother object so now he is without a mother and he reacts badly with abandonment anxiety with separation insecurity oh my god I’m alone where’s mother it’s a baby it’s a child yes it’s a 2-year-old where’s mommy it’s like being lost in a shopping mall when mother is gone, you know, and so that’s the first problem that arises, abandonment, anxiety, it’s the first reaction. And this is no, this creates um what is called inconstancy or lost his mother it’s a mother object so now he is without a mother and he reacts badly with abandonment anxiety with separation insecurity oh my god I’m alone where’s mother it’s a baby it’s a child yes it’s a 2-year-old where’s mommy it’s like being lost in a shopping mall when mother is gone, you know, and so that’s the first problem that arises, abandonment, anxiety, it’s the first reaction. And this is no, this creates um what is called inconstancy or
13. 08:05 impermanence. Now we have two types of inconstancy or impermanence. We have object inconstancy or object impermanence depending if you follow PG or follow follow others. And you and you have introject inconstancy or introject impermanence because the narcissist is focused on internal objects not on external reality. The narcissist maintains introject permanence introject constancy. The let me explain this a bit complicated. The narcissist as a child has had a mother who was unpredictable, unsafe, not a secure base, a mother who impermanence. Now we have two types of inconstancy or impermanence. We have object inconstancy or object impermanence depending if you follow PG or follow follow others. And you and you have introject inconstancy or introject impermanence because the narcissist is focused on internal objects not on external reality. The narcissist maintains introject permanence introject constancy. The let me explain this a bit complicated. The narcissist as a child has had a mother who was unpredictable, unsafe, not a secure base, a mother who
14. 08:51 could not be relied on, a mother who could not be trusted, a mother who was emotionally absent or depressive or selfish or so. The narcissist develops object inconstancy. The narcissist doesn’t trust the permanence and constancy of other people. He doesn’t believe that other people are there when he cannot see them when they are not in physical proximity to him because he has no relationship with external objects. Instead, the narcissist has introject constancy while he cannot trust external objects, other could not be relied on, a mother who could not be trusted, a mother who was emotionally absent or depressive or selfish or so. The narcissist develops object inconstancy. The narcissist doesn’t trust the permanence and constancy of other people. He doesn’t believe that other people are there when he cannot see them when they are not in physical proximity to him because he has no relationship with external objects. Instead, the narcissist has introject constancy while he cannot trust external objects, other
15. 09:32 people. He can trust the internal objects that represent other people in his mind. These internal objects that represent other people, they are stable. They are constant. They are permanent. So in narcissism, we have object inconstancy. In other words, distrust of the existence of other people and introject constancy, full trust in the permanence and stability of internal representations of other people. While in borderline we have exactly the opposite. In borderline we have introject inconstancy. people. He can trust the internal objects that represent other people in his mind. These internal objects that represent other people, they are stable. They are constant. They are permanent. So in narcissism, we have object inconstancy. In other words, distrust of the existence of other people and introject constancy, full trust in the permanence and stability of internal representations of other people. While in borderline we have exactly the opposite. In borderline we have introject inconstancy.
16. 10:20 The borderline cannot maintain a stable representation of other people in her mind. When she is not in the physical presence of other people, the introject fades. The introject disappears. It’s like with the borderline coffee. It’s like with the borderline, out of sight, out of mind. When you are not in the physical proximity of the borderline, when you’re not in the same room with her, she cannot maintain a stable representation of you in her mind. So, you fade. You like fade away and it’s very difficult for her. That’s The borderline cannot maintain a stable representation of other people in her mind. When she is not in the physical presence of other people, the introject fades. The introject disappears. It’s like with the borderline coffee. It’s like with the borderline, out of sight, out of mind. When you are not in the physical proximity of the borderline, when you’re not in the same room with her, she cannot maintain a stable representation of you in her mind. So, you fade. You like fade away and it’s very difficult for her. That’s
17. 11:05 why border lines are in panic when you leave the room. That’s why border lines have extreme abandonment anxiety because they can’t maintain an image of you in their minds. The narcissist is exactly the opposite. The narcissist maintains a stable image of you in their mind, but as far as you’re concerned, they don’t trust your existence. They don’t trust you there. Okay? So when the narcissist discards the internal object, this creates abandonment anxiety because mother is gone and it also creates why border lines are in panic when you leave the room. That’s why border lines have extreme abandonment anxiety because they can’t maintain an image of you in their minds. The narcissist is exactly the opposite. The narcissist maintains a stable image of you in their mind, but as far as you’re concerned, they don’t trust your existence. They don’t trust you there. Okay? So when the narcissist discards the internal object, this creates abandonment anxiety because mother is gone and it also creates
18. 11:45 introject inconstancy. In other words, the narcissist becomes borderline in effect. The narcissist the narcissistic defenses crumble and become a borderline personality organization. The discard is self-traumatizing. Self-traumatizing. It’s like losing your mother on per killing your mother in effect. It’s like assassinating your mother. It’s highly traumatizing impact. And the narcissist loses introject constancy and becomes essentially and clinically a borderline. This is a terrifying state. And so what introject inconstancy. In other words, the narcissist becomes borderline in effect. The narcissist the narcissistic defenses crumble and become a borderline personality organization. The discard is self-traumatizing. Self-traumatizing. It’s like losing your mother on per killing your mother in effect. It’s like assassinating your mother. It’s highly traumatizing impact. And the narcissist loses introject constancy and becomes essentially and clinically a borderline. This is a terrifying state. And so what
19. 12:24 the narcissist tries to do is re idealize the external object. So the narcissist attempts to separate by devaluing the external object, the internal object. Then the narcissist devalues the external object to conform the internal object with the external object. Then the narcissist discards the internal object and then the narcissist discards the external object. And this triggers enormous abandonment anxiety and enormous introject inconstancy, a borderline state. And so then the narcissist is terrified of the the narcissist tries to do is re idealize the external object. So the narcissist attempts to separate by devaluing the external object, the internal object. Then the narcissist devalues the external object to conform the internal object with the external object. Then the narcissist discards the internal object and then the narcissist discards the external object. And this triggers enormous abandonment anxiety and enormous introject inconstancy, a borderline state. And so then the narcissist is terrified of the
20. 13:02 borderline state, the emotional dysregulation, the inability to visualize or or reimagine the external objects and so on. terrified of this state. The narcissist tries to bring you back into his life to re idealize you so that he can start the shared fantasy all over again with you. Because within the shared fantasy there is conssonance, not dissonance. The shared fantasy is a conssonant state because within the shared fantasy there is full agreement, full conformity between internal and external. The narcissist molds you and borderline state, the emotional dysregulation, the inability to visualize or or reimagine the external objects and so on. terrified of this state. The narcissist tries to bring you back into his life to re idealize you so that he can start the shared fantasy all over again with you. Because within the shared fantasy there is conssonance, not dissonance. The shared fantasy is a conssonant state because within the shared fantasy there is full agreement, full conformity between internal and external. The narcissist molds you and
21. 13:45 shapeshifts you and changes you to fit the internal object. If the internal object is idealized, he will change you so that you become idealized. If the external object is devalued, he will change you. So that you become a devalued u you fit the devalued internal object. You change all the time in the shared fantasy. You fl you’re in flux. You’re not you. You are never you. It takes away your core identity. It takes it away and you become patty. You become raw material. And he uses this raw shapeshifts you and changes you to fit the internal object. If the internal object is idealized, he will change you so that you become idealized. If the external object is devalued, he will change you. So that you become a devalued u you fit the devalued internal object. You change all the time in the shared fantasy. You fl you’re in flux. You’re not you. You are never you. It takes away your core identity. It takes it away and you become patty. You become raw material. And he uses this raw
22. 14:19 material to create sculptures of you. Animated sculptures of you. One sculpture is the idealized sculpture then the devalued sculpture. And because these external objects you always fit the internal object, the shirt fantasy is very calming. It’s very anxolytic. It reduces anxiety. It reduces anxiety. The shirt fantasy is anxolytic medicine. It reduces the narcissist anxiety. It restores conssonance only only in the separation and attempted separation only then the shared fantasy becomes dissonant material to create sculptures of you. Animated sculptures of you. One sculpture is the idealized sculpture then the devalued sculpture. And because these external objects you always fit the internal object, the shirt fantasy is very calming. It’s very anxolytic. It reduces anxiety. It reduces anxiety. The shirt fantasy is anxolytic medicine. It reduces the narcissist anxiety. It restores conssonance only only in the separation and attempted separation only then the shared fantasy becomes dissonant
23. 15:03 because in the attempted separation the narcissist devalues the internal object then devalues the external object then has to get rid of them because they ren devalued internal object renders the narcissist imperfect. So he has to get rid of it. Once the narcissist gets rid of you as an external object and the internal object that represents you, at that point the narcissist experiences introjecting constancy, abandonment, anxiety, the shed fantasy becomes a nightmare, a psychological nightmare. because in the attempted separation the narcissist devalues the internal object then devalues the external object then has to get rid of them because they ren devalued internal object renders the narcissist imperfect. So he has to get rid of it. Once the narcissist gets rid of you as an external object and the internal object that represents you, at that point the narcissist experiences introjecting constancy, abandonment, anxiety, the shed fantasy becomes a nightmare, a psychological nightmare.
24. 15:44 And the only way to go back to the par paradise state, the garden of Eden state before the expulsion of the shared fantasy is to re idealize you. Having re idealized you, the narcissist can start a new shared fantasy with you. And he’s again calm, no anxiety. Mother is here. She is perfect. She loves me unconditionally. and the cycle starts again. It could be you, which is a process called hoovering, a word that I coined. So, it could be hoovering, where the narcissist focuses on you and tries to re idealize And the only way to go back to the par paradise state, the garden of Eden state before the expulsion of the shared fantasy is to re idealize you. Having re idealized you, the narcissist can start a new shared fantasy with you. And he’s again calm, no anxiety. Mother is here. She is perfect. She loves me unconditionally. and the cycle starts again. It could be you, which is a process called hoovering, a word that I coined. So, it could be hoovering, where the narcissist focuses on you and tries to re idealize
25. 16:25 you, or it could be someone else. But the narcissist cannot survive long without a shared fantasy. It he can survive a day or two. That’s why narcissists transition from one so-called intimate partner to another so-called intimate partner within sometimes hours because they cannot survive without and usually they prepare backups in the devaluation phase. When they devalue the internal object they already prepare backups in case uh they cannot reidalize you, they cannot hoover you. They prepare backups and they can you, or it could be someone else. But the narcissist cannot survive long without a shared fantasy. It he can survive a day or two. That’s why narcissists transition from one so-called intimate partner to another so-called intimate partner within sometimes hours because they cannot survive without and usually they prepare backups in the devaluation phase. When they devalue the internal object they already prepare backups in case uh they cannot reidalize you, they cannot hoover you. They prepare backups and they can
26. 17:01 transition. This is called monkey branching. they can transition to another um another potential. This is the shared fantasy. It’s a child who imposes on you the role of his or her mother and you need in order to become the narcissist mother, you need to give up on yourself. You need to suspend yourself or even erase yourself. It’s a self-negating process. You then give up on who you are and on who you were and on who you are likely to become as well. You give up on your future. You are emptied. You’re hollowed out and transition. This is called monkey branching. they can transition to another um another potential. This is the shared fantasy. It’s a child who imposes on you the role of his or her mother and you need in order to become the narcissist mother, you need to give up on yourself. You need to suspend yourself or even erase yourself. It’s a self-negating process. You then give up on who you are and on who you were and on who you are likely to become as well. You give up on your future. You are emptied. You’re hollowed out and
27. 17:46 then you can act the mother. It’s like, have you heard of method method acting? Stanislavski and so on. In method acting, they teach actors to empty themselves. They say empty yourself and allow the character to enter you. It’s what used to be called in the middle ages demon possession. Yeah. So it’s like the narcissist tells you empty yourself, negate yourself, visiate and eliminate yourself completely. Make space for my mother. Make space for my mother. And then you become your acting in a script. then you can act the mother. It’s like, have you heard of method method acting? Stanislavski and so on. In method acting, they teach actors to empty themselves. They say empty yourself and allow the character to enter you. It’s what used to be called in the middle ages demon possession. Yeah. So it’s like the narcissist tells you empty yourself, negate yourself, visiate and eliminate yourself completely. Make space for my mother. Make space for my mother. And then you become your acting in a script.
28. 18:25 It’s a movie. You become the narcissist’s mother and essentially you’re zombified. It’s a zombie state. You’re not fully alive in any meaningful sense. And you’re expected to conform to the everchanging landscape of the internal object. The internal object is idealized and devalued. And you’re expected to flow, go with a flow and shape shift and change all the time and so on and so forth until you don’t no longer know who you are. There are there are so many identity It’s a movie. You become the narcissist’s mother and essentially you’re zombified. It’s a zombie state. You’re not fully alive in any meaningful sense. And you’re expected to conform to the everchanging landscape of the internal object. The internal object is idealized and devalued. And you’re expected to flow, go with a flow and shape shift and change all the time and so on and so forth until you don’t no longer know who you are. There are there are so many identity
29. 18:57 fluctuations. We call it identity diffusion or identity disturbance. Your identity is so diffused and so disturbed that ultimately at the end of the shirt fantasy you no longer have the slightest idea who you are because you have been forced to play the role of someone else to the exclusion of you. You were not allowed to bring you into the picture or to contribute anything or the narcissist has this idealized image of the mother and it is a total image or I would even say totalitarian image and that’s it. You fluctuations. We call it identity diffusion or identity disturbance. Your identity is so diffused and so disturbed that ultimately at the end of the shirt fantasy you no longer have the slightest idea who you are because you have been forced to play the role of someone else to the exclusion of you. You were not allowed to bring you into the picture or to contribute anything or the narcissist has this idealized image of the mother and it is a total image or I would even say totalitarian image and that’s it. You
30. 19:37 cannot embellish the image. You cannot add to the image. You cannot be creative with the image, contribute to the image, change it somehow. This is it. Take it or leave it. And so you end up losing you in the shirt fantasy and then you have been discarded and let’s assume for a minute that you have not been hoovered if you’re lucky and you experience typically the most extreme form of grief imaginable most extreme form of grief. You know that there’s been a Japanese scientist who proved that heartbreak cannot embellish the image. You cannot add to the image. You cannot be creative with the image, contribute to the image, change it somehow. This is it. Take it or leave it. And so you end up losing you in the shirt fantasy and then you have been discarded and let’s assume for a minute that you have not been hoovered if you’re lucky and you experience typically the most extreme form of grief imaginable most extreme form of grief. You know that there’s been a Japanese scientist who proved that heartbreak
31. 20:18 in relationships when you break up. Heartbreak could be deadly. There’s even a name for it. It’s a syndrome. Heartbreak syndrome. Heartbreak could be deadly. But nothing compares to breaking up with a narcissist. Nothing remotely compares to this. And I today right now we’re going to discuss the grief reactions. The grief reactions in narcissism clinically when you have been discarded and even when you are the one who give up gives up on the narcissist, you’re the one who dumps the narcissist or in relationships when you break up. Heartbreak could be deadly. There’s even a name for it. It’s a syndrome. Heartbreak syndrome. Heartbreak could be deadly. But nothing compares to breaking up with a narcissist. Nothing remotely compares to this. And I today right now we’re going to discuss the grief reactions. The grief reactions in narcissism clinically when you have been discarded and even when you are the one who give up gives up on the narcissist, you’re the one who dumps the narcissist or
32. 20:53 breaks up with the narcissist or walks away or even then you would have these grief reactions. These are compounded grief reactions and they are known collectively and clinically as prolonged grief disorder. Prolonged grief disorder is a new diagnosis in the fifth edition text revision of the diagnostic and statistical manual. We are talking about grief that cannot be attenuated or medicated away or treated, never ends, remains with the same intensity over a period longer than one year. And this is known as prolonged grief breaks up with the narcissist or walks away or even then you would have these grief reactions. These are compounded grief reactions and they are known collectively and clinically as prolonged grief disorder. Prolonged grief disorder is a new diagnosis in the fifth edition text revision of the diagnostic and statistical manual. We are talking about grief that cannot be attenuated or medicated away or treated, never ends, remains with the same intensity over a period longer than one year. And this is known as prolonged grief
33. 21:39 disorder or prolonged grief syndrome. Um and this is what happens in narcissism. But even this does not capture the half of it. In narcissism the grief is so profound that it is in effect life-threatening in my view. I’ll try to explain why. Of course, in narcissism, in a relationship with the narcissist, there’s no closure and there’s no hope. The shared fantasy is hopeless. In a relationship with the narcissist, you never develop a sense of hope because very fast, very soon you realize disorder or prolonged grief syndrome. Um and this is what happens in narcissism. But even this does not capture the half of it. In narcissism the grief is so profound that it is in effect life-threatening in my view. I’ll try to explain why. Of course, in narcissism, in a relationship with the narcissist, there’s no closure and there’s no hope. The shared fantasy is hopeless. In a relationship with the narcissist, you never develop a sense of hope because very fast, very soon you realize
34. 22:21 that narcissism is a compulsion, that it is repetitive, that there’s no learning or evolution or growth or development, and that it is a maintenance chore. basically similar to prison for example or the army a total environment this is called a total environment so there’s no hope and there’s no closure after the termination of the relationship as well because no one to talk to the narcissist is not aminable to analyzing past events and his contributions to alleged infringements on other people’s rights that narcissism is a compulsion, that it is repetitive, that there’s no learning or evolution or growth or development, and that it is a maintenance chore. basically similar to prison for example or the army a total environment this is called a total environment so there’s no hope and there’s no closure after the termination of the relationship as well because no one to talk to the narcissist is not aminable to analyzing past events and his contributions to alleged infringements on other people’s rights
35. 22:57 and he’s not he’s done nothing wrong and you’re the per secondary object. You were the one to have misbehaved. You’re the enemy and and so on so forth. There’s no possibility for closure. And of course, this reduces the capacity to deal with the trauma of the breakup considerably reduces. But that’s not the core issue. That’s not the main issue. The main issue obviously is the betrayal. There is profound betrayal in the relationship with the narcissist. You have been led to believe that a and he’s not he’s done nothing wrong and you’re the per secondary object. You were the one to have misbehaved. You’re the enemy and and so on so forth. There’s no possibility for closure. And of course, this reduces the capacity to deal with the trauma of the breakup considerably reduces. But that’s not the core issue. That’s not the main issue. The main issue obviously is the betrayal. There is profound betrayal in the relationship with the narcissist. You have been led to believe that a
36. 23:27 narcissist loves you the way a mother does, cares for you, unconditionally there for you, and will lead you to a better life. There is an implicit promise, and very often explicit promise to give you a life that is substantially different to your current life, and that caters to all your hidden needs, dreams, wishes, fantasies, and priorities. And there is a miserable, abysmal failure on every conceivable front. emotionally, very often, physically, sexually, socially, it’s an abysmal failure. The narcissist narcissist loves you the way a mother does, cares for you, unconditionally there for you, and will lead you to a better life. There is an implicit promise, and very often explicit promise to give you a life that is substantially different to your current life, and that caters to all your hidden needs, dreams, wishes, fantasies, and priorities. And there is a miserable, abysmal failure on every conceivable front. emotionally, very often, physically, sexually, socially, it’s an abysmal failure. The narcissist
37. 24:05 is a loser and he’s unable to deliver on anything whatsoever. And there’s a sense of having been deceived. Although this is counterfactual, the narcissist does not deceive. The narcissist believes his own deceptions. He contribulates. He has memory gaps. He’s fighting. is struggling for survival and the only way he knows to struggle is to lie to himself first and foremost to himself and then he believes his own lies. These are known as confabulations. He believes his own lies and then he makes you is a loser and he’s unable to deliver on anything whatsoever. And there’s a sense of having been deceived. Although this is counterfactual, the narcissist does not deceive. The narcissist believes his own deceptions. He contribulates. He has memory gaps. He’s fighting. is struggling for survival and the only way he knows to struggle is to lie to himself first and foremost to himself and then he believes his own lies. These are known as confabulations. He believes his own lies and then he makes you
38. 24:38 believe his own lies and then you can’t accuse such a person of deception. It’s a person who is delusional, embedded in fantasy, has no reality testing. He’s no longer with us. It’s a mentally ill person. You would not accuse a psychotic of of you know saying something that doesn’t exist. There’s no accusation here. There’s no blame to go around. And that’s perhaps that perhaps is the most horrifying aspect of the shed fantasy that there’s no one to blame, no one to believe his own lies and then you can’t accuse such a person of deception. It’s a person who is delusional, embedded in fantasy, has no reality testing. He’s no longer with us. It’s a mentally ill person. You would not accuse a psychotic of of you know saying something that doesn’t exist. There’s no accusation here. There’s no blame to go around. And that’s perhaps that perhaps is the most horrifying aspect of the shed fantasy that there’s no one to blame, no one to
39. 25:11 assign responsibility and guilt to, no one who really did anything to you. It’s there was nobody there to start with. Of course, you go around and accusing the narcissist and blaming the narcissist and so on so forth. But I think deep inside people know that this has been a damaged individual profoundly and thoroughly damaged individual who was who couldn’t have acted differently. So there’s a sense of betrayal and a sadness, an all-encompassing, all pervading cellular sadness. A sadness that assign responsibility and guilt to, no one who really did anything to you. It’s there was nobody there to start with. Of course, you go around and accusing the narcissist and blaming the narcissist and so on so forth. But I think deep inside people know that this has been a damaged individual profoundly and thoroughly damaged individual who was who couldn’t have acted differently. So there’s a sense of betrayal and a sadness, an all-encompassing, all pervading cellular sadness. A sadness that
40. 25:52 permeates everything that is ubiquitous and that ultim ultimately consumes you time and again in waves, inexurable waves. And you’re surfing, you’re surfing this sadness not very successfully. And it is a sadness for everything imaginable. You’re sad for the narcissist because you have seen the narcissist’s inner child. You have seen the narcissist’s potential, unrealized, unactualized potential. You have seen the narcissist’s fantasy. You have seen the nar the what the narcissist could permeates everything that is ubiquitous and that ultim ultimately consumes you time and again in waves, inexurable waves. And you’re surfing, you’re surfing this sadness not very successfully. And it is a sadness for everything imaginable. You’re sad for the narcissist because you have seen the narcissist’s inner child. You have seen the narcissist’s potential, unrealized, unactualized potential. You have seen the narcissist’s fantasy. You have seen the nar the what the narcissist could
41. 26:25 have become and was never allowed to become. And that is very sad. Whenever we witness a waste of human potential, that’s always sad. Of course, in this case, it’s a dead baby. The narcissist is a dead baby. It’s still animated somehow. It’s still a zombie. Say, walks and talks and gives lectures in psychology and what have you, but ultimately and and really, it’s a dead baby. And it’s a dead baby who would never know love. Never ever no love. It’s a dead baby who cannot experience have become and was never allowed to become. And that is very sad. Whenever we witness a waste of human potential, that’s always sad. Of course, in this case, it’s a dead baby. The narcissist is a dead baby. It’s still animated somehow. It’s still a zombie. Say, walks and talks and gives lectures in psychology and what have you, but ultimately and and really, it’s a dead baby. And it’s a dead baby who would never know love. Never ever no love. It’s a dead baby who cannot experience
42. 27:02 intimacy. It’s a dead baby who cannot interact with reality and has to internalize everything in order to somehow make it. And it’s a sad spectacle. Simply sad. You’re sad. You’re sad for yourself. You’re sad for what you had become. What you had unbecome. Actually, it takes away who you were. Takes away your identity. You’re not sure at all that you can ever find yourself again. You are not sure that the damage is not permanent and disfiguring and something that you cannot recover from. There is this intimacy. It’s a dead baby who cannot interact with reality and has to internalize everything in order to somehow make it. And it’s a sad spectacle. Simply sad. You’re sad. You’re sad for yourself. You’re sad for what you had become. What you had unbecome. Actually, it takes away who you were. Takes away your identity. You’re not sure at all that you can ever find yourself again. You are not sure that the damage is not permanent and disfiguring and something that you cannot recover from. There is this
43. 27:41 initially con conviction that you have been obliterated, eradicated, and you’re no longer you and you will never ever be you again. You are set for your common history. They’re good memories. Even with with a narcissist, they’re good memories. We we have um cognitive bias. U we recall good memories much more than bad memories over time. We emphasize good memories. It’s um it’s the rose rose tinted bias. So it’s a cognitive bias. So we tend to remember the positive moments with the initially con conviction that you have been obliterated, eradicated, and you’re no longer you and you will never ever be you again. You are set for your common history. They’re good memories. Even with with a narcissist, they’re good memories. We we have um cognitive bias. U we recall good memories much more than bad memories over time. We emphasize good memories. It’s um it’s the rose rose tinted bias. So it’s a cognitive bias. So we tend to remember the positive moments with the
44. 28:22 narcissist and we mourn and we grieve when we are bererieved over these moments that will never ever repeat themselves and perhaps now we beginning to realize that they were meaningful only to you but not to the narcissist. So the commonality, the sharing of these moments, the common history, the narrative that binds you together because relationships are narratives. They’re stories. You know, you suddenly realize there was only one participant in this story, one actor in this play. The the narcissist has never narcissist and we mourn and we grieve when we are bererieved over these moments that will never ever repeat themselves and perhaps now we beginning to realize that they were meaningful only to you but not to the narcissist. So the commonality, the sharing of these moments, the common history, the narrative that binds you together because relationships are narratives. They’re stories. You know, you suddenly realize there was only one participant in this story, one actor in this play. The the narcissist has never
45. 28:55 been there. It was never there. And you’re beginning to doubt your own judgment of reality. Are you the one who is delusional? Are you the one who is somehow broken and damaged? You need to it’s it’s a terrifying state because when you try to analyze yourself as a victim of narcissistic abuse, there’s the narcissist has taken away your identity which is the main instrument, the main tool we have to selfanalyze. When we selfanalyze, there’s a self involved and he has taken away this. In other words, we don’t have been there. It was never there. And you’re beginning to doubt your own judgment of reality. Are you the one who is delusional? Are you the one who is somehow broken and damaged? You need to it’s it’s a terrifying state because when you try to analyze yourself as a victim of narcissistic abuse, there’s the narcissist has taken away your identity which is the main instrument, the main tool we have to selfanalyze. When we selfanalyze, there’s a self involved and he has taken away this. In other words, we don’t have
46. 29:33 what is called you don’t victim doesn’t have what is called ego congruence. It’s the narcissist takes away the ego congruence and the ability to regard yourself as a continuous unity. You feel disjointed. You feel broken. You feel dissociated in shards like there’s no continuity. You feel like a kaleidoscope when you exit the Nazi shed fantasy because of the identity diffusion. Identity diffusion is a clinical term. It happens. It occurs in adolescence. According to Ericson, it occurs in adolescence and it occurs what is called you don’t victim doesn’t have what is called ego congruence. It’s the narcissist takes away the ego congruence and the ability to regard yourself as a continuous unity. You feel disjointed. You feel broken. You feel dissociated in shards like there’s no continuity. You feel like a kaleidoscope when you exit the Nazi shed fantasy because of the identity diffusion. Identity diffusion is a clinical term. It happens. It occurs in adolescence. According to Ericson, it occurs in adolescence and it occurs
47. 30:08 later in mental illnesses such as borderline personality disorder. There’s identity diffusion, also known as identity disturbance. And the narcissist induces this in you because remember the narcissist hands over to you his or her own experience. They he wants to experience himself through you. He has no identity. He wants you to not have an identity so that he can experience nonidentity. He devalues you. He want you to devalue yourself so that he experiences the devaluation through you. He idealizes later in mental illnesses such as borderline personality disorder. There’s identity diffusion, also known as identity disturbance. And the narcissist induces this in you because remember the narcissist hands over to you his or her own experience. They he wants to experience himself through you. He has no identity. He wants you to not have an identity so that he can experience nonidentity. He devalues you. He want you to devalue yourself so that he experiences the devaluation through you. He idealizes
48. 30:45 you. He wants you to idealize yourself so that he can experience the idealization through you. The narcissist’s existence is by proxy, vicarious through other people. The narcissist vampirizes if you wish paras is a parasite on other people’s minds and he derives sustenance and the very sense of existence from the minds of other people. So here have when you’re out of the shirt fantasy and you’re looking back and you have for example good memories, you’re no longer sure. You’re no longer certain you. He wants you to idealize yourself so that he can experience the idealization through you. The narcissist’s existence is by proxy, vicarious through other people. The narcissist vampirizes if you wish paras is a parasite on other people’s minds and he derives sustenance and the very sense of existence from the minds of other people. So here have when you’re out of the shirt fantasy and you’re looking back and you have for example good memories, you’re no longer sure. You’re no longer certain
49. 31:21 that your memories are real or that they’ve ever been shared or the narcissist has ever been there. There’s a sense of tentiveness, a sense of impermanence, a sense of ephemereral, a kind of ephemeral feeling like it’s all going to dissolve in a minute. It’s it’s all unreal. There’s a sense of unreality. In victims of narcissistic abuse, we spot very frequently dissociative symptoms such as amnesia, derealization, depersonalization. Many many victims of narcissistic abuse that your memories are real or that they’ve ever been shared or the narcissist has ever been there. There’s a sense of tentiveness, a sense of impermanence, a sense of ephemereral, a kind of ephemeral feeling like it’s all going to dissolve in a minute. It’s it’s all unreal. There’s a sense of unreality. In victims of narcissistic abuse, we spot very frequently dissociative symptoms such as amnesia, derealization, depersonalization. Many many victims of narcissistic abuse
50. 31:57 display or devolve into a borderline personality organization. They’re emotionally disregulated. Some of them are suicidal. There is severe damage to the structure of the personality, its cohesion and its functioning in narcissistic abuse. And you mourn all this obviously. You also mourn, you also grieve what could have been. You were part and parcel of a cult or a fantasy. And you adhere to, you subscribe to a vision, a vision of the togetherness, a vision of the future. And this vision is gone. It’s gone. And display or devolve into a borderline personality organization. They’re emotionally disregulated. Some of them are suicidal. There is severe damage to the structure of the personality, its cohesion and its functioning in narcissistic abuse. And you mourn all this obviously. You also mourn, you also grieve what could have been. You were part and parcel of a cult or a fantasy. And you adhere to, you subscribe to a vision, a vision of the togetherness, a vision of the future. And this vision is gone. It’s gone. And
51. 32:37 so you mourn what could have been. And yet you don’t really have anyone to blame. You can blame yourself. This is autoplastic defense. You can blame yourself, but that’s not very helpful to not conducive to healing. You can blame the narcissist, but you know that it’s a sick person. Deep inside. You know that. All victims know that something is wrong with him. It’s a sick person. So you cannot really blame anyone. And in the absence of ability to blame, it’s a problem. You know, when something bad so you mourn what could have been. And yet you don’t really have anyone to blame. You can blame yourself. This is autoplastic defense. You can blame yourself, but that’s not very helpful to not conducive to healing. You can blame the narcissist, but you know that it’s a sick person. Deep inside. You know that. All victims know that something is wrong with him. It’s a sick person. So you cannot really blame anyone. And in the absence of ability to blame, it’s a problem. You know, when something bad
52. 33:07 happens to you and you can identify the culprit or the perpetrator, it’s halfway to healing. It’s 50% of healing. That’s why victims insist on apol getting an apology, acknowledgement by the perpetrator. You know, I don’t want you to punish you, but I want you to say that you know what you have done and I want you to say that you’re sorry because that’s half that’s 50% on the road to healing. You can’t do this with a narcissist, you know. And so there is there is the classical cycle of grief happens to you and you can identify the culprit or the perpetrator, it’s halfway to healing. It’s 50% of healing. That’s why victims insist on apol getting an apology, acknowledgement by the perpetrator. You know, I don’t want you to punish you, but I want you to say that you know what you have done and I want you to say that you’re sorry because that’s half that’s 50% on the road to healing. You can’t do this with a narcissist, you know. And so there is there is the classical cycle of grief
53. 33:40 that is common in in for example losing a loved one. And this cycle of grief, as some of you may know, was first described by um an American Swiss psychologist Elizabeth Kubler Ross and augmented later by do Dr. Kenneth Doka DA. So we call it the Ross Docka cycle of grief and it has five stage uh six stages, I’m sorry. It has six stages and the victims of narcissistic abuse go through these stages on top of all the other grief that I’ve mentioned and other types of grief that I will come to that is common in in for example losing a loved one. And this cycle of grief, as some of you may know, was first described by um an American Swiss psychologist Elizabeth Kubler Ross and augmented later by do Dr. Kenneth Doka DA. So we call it the Ross Docka cycle of grief and it has five stage uh six stages, I’m sorry. It has six stages and the victims of narcissistic abuse go through these stages on top of all the other grief that I’ve mentioned and other types of grief that I will come to
54. 34:22 a bit later. This is this is only the beginning. Everything I’ve just said is a tip tip of an iceberg. That’s why I’m giving you this picture of grief and mourning and bereiement for you to understand that the task of healing and recovery is a hell of a lot more complicated than anything you are led to believe online. It’s uh serious business and in the vast majority of cases you cannot do it by yourself. You cannot do it alone. You need help. Grief counselors or something. You need help. So a bit later. This is this is only the beginning. Everything I’ve just said is a tip tip of an iceberg. That’s why I’m giving you this picture of grief and mourning and bereiement for you to understand that the task of healing and recovery is a hell of a lot more complicated than anything you are led to believe online. It’s uh serious business and in the vast majority of cases you cannot do it by yourself. You cannot do it alone. You need help. Grief counselors or something. You need help. So
55. 34:55 before we go into the specific types of grief common to narcissistic abuse, I will describe the general general theory of grief or cycle of grief that we use in in psychology. There are six stages. The first stage is denial. So this is the Kubler Ross uh Docka Ross Docka um cycle. The first stage is denial. Denial is simply you deny that anything bad has happened or you reframe what has happened is not that bad and there are positive aspects and this and that. Denial, nonacceptance that something before we go into the specific types of grief common to narcissistic abuse, I will describe the general general theory of grief or cycle of grief that we use in in psychology. There are six stages. The first stage is denial. So this is the Kubler Ross uh Docka Ross Docka um cycle. The first stage is denial. Denial is simply you deny that anything bad has happened or you reframe what has happened is not that bad and there are positive aspects and this and that. Denial, nonacceptance that something
56. 35:37 horrible has happened to you. So this is denial. The second stage is anger. Most victims online and in forums and so on, they are stuck at the anger stage. So they angry at the narcissist that they demonize the narcissist and so on. and unscrupulous uh charlatans and con artists with and without academic degrees keep these people in the anger phase keeps them keep them anchored in the anger phase because they can sell products they can sell books and seminars and and so on so forth. So you have online YouTubers with horrible has happened to you. So this is denial. The second stage is anger. Most victims online and in forums and so on, they are stuck at the anger stage. So they angry at the narcissist that they demonize the narcissist and so on. and unscrupulous uh charlatans and con artists with and without academic degrees keep these people in the anger phase keeps them keep them anchored in the anger phase because they can sell products they can sell books and seminars and and so on so forth. So you have online YouTubers with
57. 36:15 and without academic degrees who encourage the anger. They they tell the victims you should be angry and only angry. They don’t allow the victims to move forward because as long as the victim is angry and ruminating and can’t stop thinking about things and so on, this kind of victim is likely to buy products and they’re laughing all the way to the bank. these charlatans with and without and with academic degrees. It’s a very sorry site and makes me very very angry. The next stage is bargaining. When you and without academic degrees who encourage the anger. They they tell the victims you should be angry and only angry. They don’t allow the victims to move forward because as long as the victim is angry and ruminating and can’t stop thinking about things and so on, this kind of victim is likely to buy products and they’re laughing all the way to the bank. these charlatans with and without and with academic degrees. It’s a very sorry site and makes me very very angry. The next stage is bargaining. When you
58. 36:50 say okay something horrible has happened to me but maybe I can mitigate it, maybe I can emilate it. Maybe I can make it better. Maybe if I offer this or maybe if I change this or maybe if I do this or maybe if I refrain from doing this something will change and things will get back to where they were or things will become better. So this is like bargaining. Some people bargain with God. They say you know if I pray maybe things will change or so this bargaining. You can bargain with God. You can bargain with other people. You say okay something horrible has happened to me but maybe I can mitigate it, maybe I can emilate it. Maybe I can make it better. Maybe if I offer this or maybe if I change this or maybe if I do this or maybe if I refrain from doing this something will change and things will get back to where they were or things will become better. So this is like bargaining. Some people bargain with God. They say you know if I pray maybe things will change or so this bargaining. You can bargain with God. You can bargain with other people. You
59. 37:21 can bargain with yourself and you can bargain with the narcissist and so on. There’s a stage of transactionally attempting to change the outcomes. Anger, denial, anger, bargaining. The next stage is depression. Having realized that the bargaining will not work, that the damage is permanent, that you have been um assaulted or you have been abused or you have been traumatized and so on so forth. Having accepted this, having understood this, I’m sorry. The next stage is depression. You react with can bargain with yourself and you can bargain with the narcissist and so on. There’s a stage of transactionally attempting to change the outcomes. Anger, denial, anger, bargaining. The next stage is depression. Having realized that the bargaining will not work, that the damage is permanent, that you have been um assaulted or you have been abused or you have been traumatized and so on so forth. Having accepted this, having understood this, I’m sorry. The next stage is depression. You react with
60. 37:56 depression to this because there is a negation of everything you are, who you are. There’s a negation of your identity and you feel objectified. You feel as a victim, as a victim. You feel objectified. You feel dehumanized. You feel a sense of there’s a strong sense of injustice. You know, why did this happen to me? So and there is epistemic injustice. So injury when you try to communicate people don’t believe you and so on and so all in all this plunges you into depression and depression is one of the six phases of depression to this because there is a negation of everything you are, who you are. There’s a negation of your identity and you feel objectified. You feel as a victim, as a victim. You feel objectified. You feel dehumanized. You feel a sense of there’s a strong sense of injustice. You know, why did this happen to me? So and there is epistemic injustice. So injury when you try to communicate people don’t believe you and so on and so all in all this plunges you into depression and depression is one of the six phases of
61. 38:32 coping with grief described by Rosen Duka. Then there is acceptance. You come to accept what has happened. You assimilate it somehow. You create a narrative which makes sense or attempts to make sense of what has happened to you. One such narrative is to demonize the narcissist. You say what has happened to me is all because of the narcissist. The narcissist is a demon or the narcissist is a force of nature or the narcissist is evil. It’s it’s evil raified, evil embodied and personified. And so I was a coping with grief described by Rosen Duka. Then there is acceptance. You come to accept what has happened. You assimilate it somehow. You create a narrative which makes sense or attempts to make sense of what has happened to you. One such narrative is to demonize the narcissist. You say what has happened to me is all because of the narcissist. The narcissist is a demon or the narcissist is a force of nature or the narcissist is evil. It’s it’s evil raified, evil embodied and personified. And so I was a
62. 39:04 victim and as a victim I’m blameless. I’m angelic. I’m impeccable. I’m immaculate. And so it’s a narrative, a narrative of acceptance actually because you do accept what has happened to you. You just try to make sense of it. We call this process hermeneutic process. So there is a hermeneutic attempt. There is an attempt to explain, make sense and imbue with meaning what has happened to you. This is the acceptance. Now Dr. Doa being an American introduced the sixth stage. The sixth stage is hope. victim and as a victim I’m blameless. I’m angelic. I’m impeccable. I’m immaculate. And so it’s a narrative, a narrative of acceptance actually because you do accept what has happened to you. You just try to make sense of it. We call this process hermeneutic process. So there is a hermeneutic attempt. There is an attempt to explain, make sense and imbue with meaning what has happened to you. This is the acceptance. Now Dr. Doa being an American introduced the sixth stage. The sixth stage is hope.
63. 39:41 Americans are malignantly optimistic. So yes, Americans have two beliefs. Every every problem has a solution and every disease has a cure, which is complete nonsense. Of course, most problems don’t have solutions and most diseases don’t have a don’t have cures actually. And the second belief they have, there’s always hope. As long as you’re alive, there’s hope. And that’s another piece of nonsense. But DOCA introduced into the cycle the sixth stage. And the sixth stage is hope. I think he could have Americans are malignantly optimistic. So yes, Americans have two beliefs. Every every problem has a solution and every disease has a cure, which is complete nonsense. Of course, most problems don’t have solutions and most diseases don’t have a don’t have cures actually. And the second belief they have, there’s always hope. As long as you’re alive, there’s hope. And that’s another piece of nonsense. But DOCA introduced into the cycle the sixth stage. And the sixth stage is hope. I think he could have
64. 40:14 chosen a much better word. For example, recovery. It’s not about hope. It’s about regaining regaining functionality. For example, regaining the ability to trust again, regaining the ability to fall in love, regaining the abil the capacity to engage in sex, uh not being afraid of people. So regaining things um kind of recovery element not so much hope because most victims of abuse for a very long time especially narcissistic abuse are pretty hopeless actually they they don’t have much hope they they have learned about chosen a much better word. For example, recovery. It’s not about hope. It’s about regaining regaining functionality. For example, regaining the ability to trust again, regaining the ability to fall in love, regaining the abil the capacity to engage in sex, uh not being afraid of people. So regaining things um kind of recovery element not so much hope because most victims of abuse for a very long time especially narcissistic abuse are pretty hopeless actually they they don’t have much hope they they have learned about
65. 40:52 the dark side of humanity firsthand and nothing is more harrowing and destabilizing the than coming across what Jung called the shadow coming across this buried complexes coming across these inexurable compulsive um mechanisms. It’s as if you were chewed up chewed up by some machinery by some device, you know, impersonal device. Nothing against you. It’s like in the in the mafia in the mafia movies, you know, I’m I’m killing you, but it’s not personal. It’s business, you know. So, it’s the same the dark side of humanity firsthand and nothing is more harrowing and destabilizing the than coming across what Jung called the shadow coming across this buried complexes coming across these inexurable compulsive um mechanisms. It’s as if you were chewed up chewed up by some machinery by some device, you know, impersonal device. Nothing against you. It’s like in the in the mafia in the mafia movies, you know, I’m I’m killing you, but it’s not personal. It’s business, you know. So, it’s the same
66. 41:27 with the Nazarist. I’m destroying you. It’s nothing personal. It’s a shared fantasy. So, there is this. So, I don’t think there’s hope. I think it’s very misnamed. I think there’s gradual regaining of capacity to function which is a major thing in itself gives hope in a way and uh this is the cycle of grief. However, as I said about nine times if accounted correctly in the case of narcissistic abuse the grief is much more compounded much deeper and has multiple layers and multiple levels. with the Nazarist. I’m destroying you. It’s nothing personal. It’s a shared fantasy. So, there is this. So, I don’t think there’s hope. I think it’s very misnamed. I think there’s gradual regaining of capacity to function which is a major thing in itself gives hope in a way and uh this is the cycle of grief. However, as I said about nine times if accounted correctly in the case of narcissistic abuse the grief is much more compounded much deeper and has multiple layers and multiple levels.
67. 42:02 The first the first level in narcissistic the grief after narcissistic abuse I think is the unrealized potential. What could have been the wishes, the dreams, the fantasies, the plans, the specific plans, the vision of the future, the idea of the of togetherness that persists, the anything that characterizes every romantic or intimate relationship, every business partnership, every friendship. But in the case of narcissism, there is no good reason for the unrealized potential. Whereas in other relationships, you can The first the first level in narcissistic the grief after narcissistic abuse I think is the unrealized potential. What could have been the wishes, the dreams, the fantasies, the plans, the specific plans, the vision of the future, the idea of the of togetherness that persists, the anything that characterizes every romantic or intimate relationship, every business partnership, every friendship. But in the case of narcissism, there is no good reason for the unrealized potential. Whereas in other relationships, you can
68. 42:39 find good reasons why the potential remained un unrealized. Why the there was no actualization of the fantasy or the wish or the dream or the plan. Good reasons, very good reasons. You establish a business, the market goes against you. you team up with uh with uh someone in a romantic relationship or intimate relationship, you discover that you’re incompatible. They’re always good reasons. In narcissism, the unrealized potential, the dream, the vision, the shattered, the shattered fantasy, find good reasons why the potential remained un unrealized. Why the there was no actualization of the fantasy or the wish or the dream or the plan. Good reasons, very good reasons. You establish a business, the market goes against you. you team up with uh with uh someone in a romantic relationship or intimate relationship, you discover that you’re incompatible. They’re always good reasons. In narcissism, the unrealized potential, the dream, the vision, the shattered, the shattered fantasy,
69. 43:10 they are without any good reason whatsoever. You can’t put your finger on a reason. It’s all very arbitrary and capriccious and impersonal and insane. And so there’s no no reason you can’t make sense of of what has happened. There’s no meaning to it. And that’s because of course everything is happening inside the narcissist’s mind, not externally. And these processes inside the narcissist mind are compulsive, automatic, repetitive, predetermined decades before you enter the scene. So they are without any good reason whatsoever. You can’t put your finger on a reason. It’s all very arbitrary and capriccious and impersonal and insane. And so there’s no no reason you can’t make sense of of what has happened. There’s no meaning to it. And that’s because of course everything is happening inside the narcissist’s mind, not externally. And these processes inside the narcissist mind are compulsive, automatic, repetitive, predetermined decades before you enter the scene. So
70. 43:44 you can’t make sense of it, of course, unless you come to a seminar like this and learn about the shared fantasy. And even then you may understand what has happened but it doesn’t make it meaningful or justified or understandable. It’s strange in this sense. It’s very much like being the victim of a natural disaster. A natural disaster. We know everything about about winds. We know everything about moisture. We know everything about the ocean. Everything. We know a lot about the oceans. We know temperatures you can’t make sense of it, of course, unless you come to a seminar like this and learn about the shared fantasy. And even then you may understand what has happened but it doesn’t make it meaningful or justified or understandable. It’s strange in this sense. It’s very much like being the victim of a natural disaster. A natural disaster. We know everything about about winds. We know everything about moisture. We know everything about the ocean. Everything. We know a lot about the oceans. We know temperatures
71. 44:19 and and so we know how a tornado or a hurricane forms. We know how they move. We know how. But when you’re a victim of a tornado or the victim of a hurricane, it doesn’t make sense. There’s no sense there. There’s no meaning in what has happened to you. you. In other words, a relationship with a narcissist confronts you with the fact that life is random and meaningless and that you are completely utterly insignificant and that everything you thought about yourself, your agency, your and and so we know how a tornado or a hurricane forms. We know how they move. We know how. But when you’re a victim of a tornado or the victim of a hurricane, it doesn’t make sense. There’s no sense there. There’s no meaning in what has happened to you. you. In other words, a relationship with a narcissist confronts you with the fact that life is random and meaningless and that you are completely utterly insignificant and that everything you thought about yourself, your agency, your
72. 44:57 self-efficacy, they’re illusions. You’re deluding yourself. You’re nothing. The relationship with the narcissist confronts you with your nothingness. Your speck of dust as relevant, as significant, as meaningful as a speck of dust. This confrontation with the fact that your life has no meaning, that you’re insignificant is devastating. Absolutely devastating. This is why people escape to religion. Religion religion gives them the illusion that they can drink coffee. So that’s why people end up uh religious self-efficacy, they’re illusions. You’re deluding yourself. You’re nothing. The relationship with the narcissist confronts you with your nothingness. Your speck of dust as relevant, as significant, as meaningful as a speck of dust. This confrontation with the fact that your life has no meaning, that you’re insignificant is devastating. Absolutely devastating. This is why people escape to religion. Religion religion gives them the illusion that they can drink coffee. So that’s why people end up uh religious
73. 45:44 being religious because religion gives you the illusion of course that life is meaningful that it is embedded in some kind of narrative that it makes sense that you are agentic that you’re contributing. For example, if you’re fighting against evil, you’re contributing somehow that if you pray, then you are establishing the order of the world. Religion is a narrative, a counterfactual, totally delusional narrative, which endows your life with meaning and significance. And religion is not the only case. To a large extent, being religious because religion gives you the illusion of course that life is meaningful that it is embedded in some kind of narrative that it makes sense that you are agentic that you’re contributing. For example, if you’re fighting against evil, you’re contributing somehow that if you pray, then you are establishing the order of the world. Religion is a narrative, a counterfactual, totally delusional narrative, which endows your life with meaning and significance. And religion is not the only case. To a large extent,
74. 46:12 science is, of course, science is very effective. Science gives rise to technologies and so on so forth. But science is also a philosophy. And science gives us the impression that the world is structured, that the world is subject to laws, laws of nature, and that we have the capacity to make sense of the world, to understand it deeply, and in some way to gain meaning somehow by studying the universe. And that’s of course a set of complete counterfactual delusions. So we all the time invent science is, of course, science is very effective. Science gives rise to technologies and so on so forth. But science is also a philosophy. And science gives us the impression that the world is structured, that the world is subject to laws, laws of nature, and that we have the capacity to make sense of the world, to understand it deeply, and in some way to gain meaning somehow by studying the universe. And that’s of course a set of complete counterfactual delusions. So we all the time invent
75. 46:46 narratives exactly as Victor Frankl had said. We all the time invent narratives that help us to inject meaning into our lives to make sense of our lives and to feel significant to feel that we are not just born and die but that we have made a difference that we matter to someone that we have contributed or are contributing something that you know and the narcissist comes along and you have a relationship with the narcissist and you realize that none of this is true. None of this is true. And the narcissist narratives exactly as Victor Frankl had said. We all the time invent narratives that help us to inject meaning into our lives to make sense of our lives and to feel significant to feel that we are not just born and die but that we have made a difference that we matter to someone that we have contributed or are contributing something that you know and the narcissist comes along and you have a relationship with the narcissist and you realize that none of this is true. None of this is true. And the narcissist
76. 47:22 objectifies you, dehumanizes you, commoditize you, commodifies you, and renders you interchangeable, a unit, a unit indistinguishable from all other units and uses you and then discards you and then it has no meaning, no beginning, no end, nothing. It served no purpose, led nowhere. There is a hermeneutic crisis, a crisis of an explanatory crisis, a meaning, crisis of meaning. So this is one level of grief. This is one level of grief that is unique to narcissism and to natural disasters and you know similar things objectifies you, dehumanizes you, commoditize you, commodifies you, and renders you interchangeable, a unit, a unit indistinguishable from all other units and uses you and then discards you and then it has no meaning, no beginning, no end, nothing. It served no purpose, led nowhere. There is a hermeneutic crisis, a crisis of an explanatory crisis, a meaning, crisis of meaning. So this is one level of grief. This is one level of grief that is unique to narcissism and to natural disasters and you know similar things
77. 48:03 and you can’t find it in a regular breakup in a regular relationship. The next um the next um coffee the next uh form of grief is because of the discrepancy between fantasy and reality. The narcissist forces you to divorce reality. The narcissist forces you to suspend or impair your reality testing your ability to gauge and evaluate reality properly. The narcissist proposes to you convincingly that the fantasy, the shared fantasy is a preferable alternative to reality and that you should therefore embed yourself and you can’t find it in a regular breakup in a regular relationship. The next um the next um coffee the next uh form of grief is because of the discrepancy between fantasy and reality. The narcissist forces you to divorce reality. The narcissist forces you to suspend or impair your reality testing your ability to gauge and evaluate reality properly. The narcissist proposes to you convincingly that the fantasy, the shared fantasy is a preferable alternative to reality and that you should therefore embed yourself
78. 48:39 fully in the fantasy and ignore, deny, reframe or whatever uh with reality. It’s an escape route. And here’s the fact, people dislike reality intensely. People hate reality. All people hate all reality. Even if they lie to themselves that there are some parts of reality they like, they don’t. Reality sucks. And so people don’t like reality. So some people watch movies, other people play video games, some people fall in love as a form of addiction. They’re addicted to falling in love. Some people fully in the fantasy and ignore, deny, reframe or whatever uh with reality. It’s an escape route. And here’s the fact, people dislike reality intensely. People hate reality. All people hate all reality. Even if they lie to themselves that there are some parts of reality they like, they don’t. Reality sucks. And so people don’t like reality. So some people watch movies, other people play video games, some people fall in love as a form of addiction. They’re addicted to falling in love. Some people
79. 49:18 uh become religious. Some people, you know, but all these are ways to avoid reality. The main preoccupation of a human animal as distinct from all other animals is to avoid reality. Whereas all other animals develop senses and capacities and traits to confront reality to gauge reality to the human person. The human animal is dedicated to somehow either avoiding reality or changing it in a way that would render it unrecognizable. Science for example, all everything we do as human beings is about either avoiding reality, not uh become religious. Some people, you know, but all these are ways to avoid reality. The main preoccupation of a human animal as distinct from all other animals is to avoid reality. Whereas all other animals develop senses and capacities and traits to confront reality to gauge reality to the human person. The human animal is dedicated to somehow either avoiding reality or changing it in a way that would render it unrecognizable. Science for example, all everything we do as human beings is about either avoiding reality, not
80. 50:04 confronting it, isolating ourselves, firewalling ourselves, go away or changing reality in such a way that it’s no longer reality actually that we are in control in such a way. It’s it’s no longer real. It’s so the narcissist comes along and offers you this wonderful, fantastic alternative to reality. And you say, you say to yourself, this is this is great. This is I’ve been waiting for this all my life. And it is the discrepancy, the unrealized potential is about also about confronting it, isolating ourselves, firewalling ourselves, go away or changing reality in such a way that it’s no longer reality actually that we are in control in such a way. It’s it’s no longer real. It’s so the narcissist comes along and offers you this wonderful, fantastic alternative to reality. And you say, you say to yourself, this is this is great. This is I’ve been waiting for this all my life. And it is the discrepancy, the unrealized potential is about also about
81. 50:41 the discrepancy between the the fantasy and the reality. In other words, when you finish when you are through with a relationship with the narcissist, you’re forced back into reality. You’re forced back into reality and you mourn the fantasy. You mourn the fantasy because it gave you a way out of reality. You also tend to you also tend to catastrophize. Victims of narcissistic abuse and actually victims of all abuse tend to catastrophize. So they they become a bit paranoid. There’s paranoid ideation and the discrepancy between the the fantasy and the reality. In other words, when you finish when you are through with a relationship with the narcissist, you’re forced back into reality. You’re forced back into reality and you mourn the fantasy. You mourn the fantasy because it gave you a way out of reality. You also tend to you also tend to catastrophize. Victims of narcissistic abuse and actually victims of all abuse tend to catastrophize. So they they become a bit paranoid. There’s paranoid ideation and
82. 51:19 there is hypervigilance, suspiciousness and there is um threat um a perception of imminent threat, ambient atmospheric imminent threat somewhere. This is part of paranoid ideation but it’s not targeted. It’s not like this person is threatening me but something bad is going to happen. So many victims of narcissistic abuse develop obsessive compulsive rituals to fend off the imminent threat. You know that obsession compulsion is about coping with unspecified imminent threats. The obsessivempulsive person there is hypervigilance, suspiciousness and there is um threat um a perception of imminent threat, ambient atmospheric imminent threat somewhere. This is part of paranoid ideation but it’s not targeted. It’s not like this person is threatening me but something bad is going to happen. So many victims of narcissistic abuse develop obsessive compulsive rituals to fend off the imminent threat. You know that obsession compulsion is about coping with unspecified imminent threats. The obsessivempulsive person
83. 51:54 says something bad is going to happen but if I wash my hands 10 times it’s not going to happen. So this is obsession compulsion. Victims develop this and what they mourn because of the catastrophizing. What they mourn is the loss of the sense of safety. They don’t feel safe anymore. And they mourn this. They say, “I used to feel so comfortable. I used to feel so safe. I used to feel so secure. I used to feel so stable. And now everything is so frightening. Everything is so threatening. Everything is so says something bad is going to happen but if I wash my hands 10 times it’s not going to happen. So this is obsession compulsion. Victims develop this and what they mourn because of the catastrophizing. What they mourn is the loss of the sense of safety. They don’t feel safe anymore. And they mourn this. They say, “I used to feel so comfortable. I used to feel so safe. I used to feel so secure. I used to feel so stable. And now everything is so frightening. Everything is so threatening. Everything is so
84. 52:26 ominous. And I hate this.” So there’s a mourning of this what we call secure base. There’s a mourning of this feeling that you’re enscconced. You are to some to a large extent protected. And one of the reasons people feel less safe after narcissistic abuse is because they their identity has been taken away from them. So there’s no one there to have their back. There’s no one there to protect them. There’s no one there to guard them. They have been hollowed out. They’ve been emptied. So this they are ominous. And I hate this.” So there’s a mourning of this what we call secure base. There’s a mourning of this feeling that you’re enscconced. You are to some to a large extent protected. And one of the reasons people feel less safe after narcissistic abuse is because they their identity has been taken away from them. So there’s no one there to have their back. There’s no one there to protect them. There’s no one there to guard them. They have been hollowed out. They’ve been emptied. So this they are
85. 53:01 not no longer their own best friends. They’re irretrievable losses, irrable losses in relationship with the narcissist. The lost time, the lost mental energy, the lost is a loss. The relationship with the narcissist is an an experience of overwhelming total loss and only loss from the from the get-go and to the very end. There are recurrent experiences of loss and so the whole relationship is a loss experience and this creates a lot of grief and here I’m losing my wife. What among the losses are the loss of not no longer their own best friends. They’re irretrievable losses, irrable losses in relationship with the narcissist. The lost time, the lost mental energy, the lost is a loss. The relationship with the narcissist is an an experience of overwhelming total loss and only loss from the from the get-go and to the very end. There are recurrent experiences of loss and so the whole relationship is a loss experience and this creates a lot of grief and here I’m losing my wife. What among the losses are the loss of
86. 53:48 identity, the loss of self, the loss of goals and the loss of the way you saw yourself. what we call ego ideal the loss of your um the way you aspire to be the way you wanted to be so that is lost as well so the losses are not only external I lost time I lost this I lost money but the losses are heavily internal you have lost the most important thing yourself this is a grief that cannot be described and um it’s a multiple multiple mourning over a discarded delusional um idealized self over the narcissist um identity, the loss of self, the loss of goals and the loss of the way you saw yourself. what we call ego ideal the loss of your um the way you aspire to be the way you wanted to be so that is lost as well so the losses are not only external I lost time I lost this I lost money but the losses are heavily internal you have lost the most important thing yourself this is a grief that cannot be described and um it’s a multiple multiple mourning over a discarded delusional um idealized self over the narcissist um
87. 54:28 over the fantasy and so on. Now we are coming to the main issue that I mentioned before. When you break up with a narcissist, you’re a mother who is giving up on her child never to be seen again. It’s not just any child. It’s not an 18year-old child or a 21 year old child. Even that is difficult as a mother. you know, the empty nest, the child leaves the house. Initially, there’s relief and jubilation, but then you begin to miss the child and you’re sad. That’s not this kind of child. It’s over the fantasy and so on. Now we are coming to the main issue that I mentioned before. When you break up with a narcissist, you’re a mother who is giving up on her child never to be seen again. It’s not just any child. It’s not an 18year-old child or a 21 year old child. Even that is difficult as a mother. you know, the empty nest, the child leaves the house. Initially, there’s relief and jubilation, but then you begin to miss the child and you’re sad. That’s not this kind of child. It’s
88. 55:02 an infant. It’s a toddler. It’s a 2-year-old. Breaking up with the narcissist is like a mother who has to give up on her two-year-old child. It’s like giving someone up for adoption, you know. And at the same time, you’re losing your mother. You’ve had a second chance with the narcissist. A second chance at a childhood that is replete with unconditional love and that had evoked in you self love to the point of self-infatuation. It has been an addictive experience and you miss it. an infant. It’s a toddler. It’s a 2-year-old. Breaking up with the narcissist is like a mother who has to give up on her two-year-old child. It’s like giving someone up for adoption, you know. And at the same time, you’re losing your mother. You’ve had a second chance with the narcissist. A second chance at a childhood that is replete with unconditional love and that had evoked in you self love to the point of self-infatuation. It has been an addictive experience and you miss it.
89. 55:37 And you also miss this mother figure who loved you unconditionally, who cla claimed to have loved you unconditionally. There’s a sense of betrayal of course. So this these are these are the two pillars of the grief after narcissistic abuse. You’re not only losing an intimate partner, you’re not only losing a fantasy, you’re not only losing a relationship, you’re not only losing yourself, but but you’re losing your child and your mother simultaneously. Imagine this happens in real life. And you also miss this mother figure who loved you unconditionally, who cla claimed to have loved you unconditionally. There’s a sense of betrayal of course. So this these are these are the two pillars of the grief after narcissistic abuse. You’re not only losing an intimate partner, you’re not only losing a fantasy, you’re not only losing a relationship, you’re not only losing yourself, but but you’re losing your child and your mother simultaneously. Imagine this happens in real life.
90. 56:09 Imagine in real life you have a two-year-old child and your mother whom you love, your mother who loves you unconditionally and your two-year-old child, they both die on the same day because that’s exactly what happens when you break up with a narcissist. Do you think you can recover from this easily? Do you think it’s a minor form of grief or mourning? Do you think it’s the equivalent of breaking up with uh you know with your boyfriend or girlfriend? It’s not remotely similar even. It’s not Imagine in real life you have a two-year-old child and your mother whom you love, your mother who loves you unconditionally and your two-year-old child, they both die on the same day because that’s exactly what happens when you break up with a narcissist. Do you think you can recover from this easily? Do you think it’s a minor form of grief or mourning? Do you think it’s the equivalent of breaking up with uh you know with your boyfriend or girlfriend? It’s not remotely similar even. It’s not
91. 56:44 remotely similar. Of course, every every breakup is a heartbreak. No question about it. But this particular breakup is a breakup with yourself, a breakup with your child, a breakup with your mother, a breakup with everything you knew, a breakup with your dreams, a breakup with your hopes, a breakup. It’s a breakup with absolutely everything. It’s a total loss. Total loss. And of course, the mourning and grieving um equivalent as deep. Above all, I think you grieve the loss of innocence. remotely similar. Of course, every every breakup is a heartbreak. No question about it. But this particular breakup is a breakup with yourself, a breakup with your child, a breakup with your mother, a breakup with everything you knew, a breakup with your dreams, a breakup with your hopes, a breakup. It’s a breakup with absolutely everything. It’s a total loss. Total loss. And of course, the mourning and grieving um equivalent as deep. Above all, I think you grieve the loss of innocence.
92. 57:19 In the wake of the of narcissistic abuse, you can never ever be innocent again. You can never really trust people again. You can convince yourself to trust them. You can even trust them to some extent but it will always be to some extent. You will always be guarded and will always be reserved. You will always um you always recoil when you’re offered a vision or a dream or a plan. You will always be so something has changed in you. Something is lost forever. This innocence innocence is not naivity. It’s In the wake of the of narcissistic abuse, you can never ever be innocent again. You can never really trust people again. You can convince yourself to trust them. You can even trust them to some extent but it will always be to some extent. You will always be guarded and will always be reserved. You will always um you always recoil when you’re offered a vision or a dream or a plan. You will always be so something has changed in you. Something is lost forever. This innocence innocence is not naivity. It’s
93. 57:59 not the same. Being naive is not being innocent. Being naive is being an idiot. Being innocent is something completely different. Being innocent has to do with the 10 sentences that I read you yesterday. Being innocent is about assuming that most people are good and that the world basically is not out to get you. This is no longer true in the wake of narcissistic abuse. You’re terrified of people. You’re terrified of of reality. You’re terrified of the world. And most of all, you can no not the same. Being naive is not being innocent. Being naive is being an idiot. Being innocent is something completely different. Being innocent has to do with the 10 sentences that I read you yesterday. Being innocent is about assuming that most people are good and that the world basically is not out to get you. This is no longer true in the wake of narcissistic abuse. You’re terrified of people. You’re terrified of of reality. You’re terrified of the world. And most of all, you can no
94. 58:26 longer trust yourself at all. There’s no selfrust. You have led yourself into this trap and you are not your own best friend. You feel as though you have you backstabbed yourself. You feel as you have as if you have betrayed yourself. So who’s left? You can’t trust other people. You can’t trust yourself. You can’t trust reality or you hate reality. You you can’t really believe in any new fantasy or dream or plan. What is left? I mean life loses its taste, its meaning, its drive. longer trust yourself at all. There’s no selfrust. You have led yourself into this trap and you are not your own best friend. You feel as though you have you backstabbed yourself. You feel as you have as if you have betrayed yourself. So who’s left? You can’t trust other people. You can’t trust yourself. You can’t trust reality or you hate reality. You you can’t really believe in any new fantasy or dream or plan. What is left? I mean life loses its taste, its meaning, its drive.
95. 59:04 You’re no longer motivated. You are, in other words, in a state of depression. Part of the mourning and grieving in the wake of narcissistic abuse is exactly this. A form of depression kind of diste the clinical word kind of distemia um background background depression like it’s you’re down feel down all the time. Um so there’s multiple morning and you’re orphaned. You’re an orphan. You lost your mother and you you’re a bererieved mother because you lost your child. You lost yourself. You lost You’re no longer motivated. You are, in other words, in a state of depression. Part of the mourning and grieving in the wake of narcissistic abuse is exactly this. A form of depression kind of diste the clinical word kind of distemia um background background depression like it’s you’re down feel down all the time. Um so there’s multiple morning and you’re orphaned. You’re an orphan. You lost your mother and you you’re a bererieved mother because you lost your child. You lost yourself. You lost
96. 59:48 trust. You lost ability to interact with reality. And you need now to recover and to heal before it’s too late. before these losses are cemented and you’re no longer able to reverse these processes because it’s a use it to lose it situation. The longer you allow it to persist, the less likely you are to be able to reverse what’s happening. when I review the literature on uh abuse um healing and recovery from especially traumatic abuse or traumatizing abuse such as narcissistic abuse. trust. You lost ability to interact with reality. And you need now to recover and to heal before it’s too late. before these losses are cemented and you’re no longer able to reverse these processes because it’s a use it to lose it situation. The longer you allow it to persist, the less likely you are to be able to reverse what’s happening. when I review the literature on uh abuse um healing and recovery from especially traumatic abuse or traumatizing abuse such as narcissistic abuse.
97. 60:35 I discovered that there are nine nine strands, nine overriding themes and I call it the ninefold path because I want to sound like a Zen Buddhist or a tauist. Why? because you know they’re wise people and I want to be considered wise. Never make this mistake. So um the nine-fold path and I will this is what I’m going to discuss momentarily but before we go there I would like to discuss mention briefly the issue of trauma. You can expose 10 people to the to an identical event to an identical process I discovered that there are nine nine strands, nine overriding themes and I call it the ninefold path because I want to sound like a Zen Buddhist or a tauist. Why? because you know they’re wise people and I want to be considered wise. Never make this mistake. So um the nine-fold path and I will this is what I’m going to discuss momentarily but before we go there I would like to discuss mention briefly the issue of trauma. You can expose 10 people to the to an identical event to an identical process
98. 61:15 to an identical relationship. Only one of them would be traumatized and nine would walk away. Maybe not unscathed, maybe affected, maybe influenced somehow, but they would walk away. They would definitely not be traumatized. Only one of the 10 would be traumatized. What I’m trying to say is that trauma is not an objective thing. It’s not an objective event. It’s not an objective occurrence. It’s not an objective process. It’s not out there. Is not objective. Trauma is reactive and totally to an identical relationship. Only one of them would be traumatized and nine would walk away. Maybe not unscathed, maybe affected, maybe influenced somehow, but they would walk away. They would definitely not be traumatized. Only one of the 10 would be traumatized. What I’m trying to say is that trauma is not an objective thing. It’s not an objective event. It’s not an objective occurrence. It’s not an objective process. It’s not out there. Is not objective. Trauma is reactive and totally
99. 61:54 subjective. Totally depends on the individual. It is not true that the same event would traumatize everyone. Absolutely not true. And uh we take for example, I mentioned yesterday the Holocaust. I’m mentioning the Holocaust because I cannot conceive of anything more traumatizing than the Holocaust. There have been other genocides and so on, but not that way. The Holocaust was structured, intentional, deliberate, orderly, industrial. The the Holocaust dehumanized and objectified people to the absolute subjective. Totally depends on the individual. It is not true that the same event would traumatize everyone. Absolutely not true. And uh we take for example, I mentioned yesterday the Holocaust. I’m mentioning the Holocaust because I cannot conceive of anything more traumatizing than the Holocaust. There have been other genocides and so on, but not that way. The Holocaust was structured, intentional, deliberate, orderly, industrial. The the Holocaust dehumanized and objectified people to the absolute
100. 62:30 maximum possible. The environment was unpredictable. Anyone could shoot you and kill you any minute or hang you or whatever. There were sadists involved in big numbers and so on. So I cannot conceive even remotely of anything that comes close to the holocaust. And yet if we take two examples in the holocaust, we take someone who who assumed the name Katnik. Katnik was a Holocaust survivor who proceeded to write books about the Holocaust. His real name was Yel Denur. He proceeded to write books about the maximum possible. The environment was unpredictable. Anyone could shoot you and kill you any minute or hang you or whatever. There were sadists involved in big numbers and so on. So I cannot conceive even remotely of anything that comes close to the holocaust. And yet if we take two examples in the holocaust, we take someone who who assumed the name Katnik. Katnik was a Holocaust survivor who proceeded to write books about the Holocaust. His real name was Yel Denur. He proceeded to write books about the
101. 63:05 Holocaust. He was a highly traumatized person. He was definitely suffering from PTSD. And when he was called to testify in the Aishman trial, the trial um against Adolf Aishman, he collapsed on the stand. He fainted. He he could he started to say he he said Aitz was a different a different planet. And then he fainted and he couldn’t complete his testimony. Katsnik by the way is means um prisoner prisoner in a cell. Kat concentr it’s uh German the German uh so here’s a a man who went through the Holocaust. Holocaust. He was a highly traumatized person. He was definitely suffering from PTSD. And when he was called to testify in the Aishman trial, the trial um against Adolf Aishman, he collapsed on the stand. He fainted. He he could he started to say he he said Aitz was a different a different planet. And then he fainted and he couldn’t complete his testimony. Katsnik by the way is means um prisoner prisoner in a cell. Kat concentr it’s uh German the German uh so here’s a a man who went through the Holocaust.
102. 63:54 Um he spent less than 6 months in Avitz. Um and yet he was so deeply traumatized that 16 years later totally safe in his own country in a court he fainted just owing to the memory the distant memory of his time in Awitz and he he didn’t spend so much time in Avitz and his time in Avitz was not the worst period in Awitz history by the way compare him to Victor Franco Victor Frankle spent three and a half years in Awitz including the worst period in Awitz history. Three and a half years. Victor Frankle was not Um he spent less than 6 months in Avitz. Um and yet he was so deeply traumatized that 16 years later totally safe in his own country in a court he fainted just owing to the memory the distant memory of his time in Awitz and he he didn’t spend so much time in Avitz and his time in Avitz was not the worst period in Awitz history by the way compare him to Victor Franco Victor Frankle spent three and a half years in Awitz including the worst period in Awitz history. Three and a half years. Victor Frankle was not
103. 64:40 traumatized at all. He was highly functional. He emerged from Awitz. He wrote books. He became a therapist. He became a media figure, public intellectual. There was no hint of sign of trauma. And he spent a lot longer in Awitz than Katnik. We cannot therefore say that the trauma was the holocaust or the trauma was Avitz. That was not the trauma. The trauma was in Katnik’s mind, not out there. Trauma, therefore, is not a state of being. It is not a state of things. It is a state of mind. And this is very important to understand traumatized at all. He was highly functional. He emerged from Awitz. He wrote books. He became a therapist. He became a media figure, public intellectual. There was no hint of sign of trauma. And he spent a lot longer in Awitz than Katnik. We cannot therefore say that the trauma was the holocaust or the trauma was Avitz. That was not the trauma. The trauma was in Katnik’s mind, not out there. Trauma, therefore, is not a state of being. It is not a state of things. It is a state of mind. And this is very important to understand
104. 65:24 why. If trauma is out there, there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s out there. You know, the whole Holocaust is out there. This is the trauma. Nothing I can do about it except die maybe. But if the trauma is a state of mind, it means that it can be reversed. It can be treated. It means that there is to use America in Americanism, there is hope. If a trauma is a state of mind, there is hope. If a trauma is something that happens to you, there is no hope. So when trauma experts and real experts why. If trauma is out there, there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s out there. You know, the whole Holocaust is out there. This is the trauma. Nothing I can do about it except die maybe. But if the trauma is a state of mind, it means that it can be reversed. It can be treated. It means that there is to use America in Americanism, there is hope. If a trauma is a state of mind, there is hope. If a trauma is something that happens to you, there is no hope. So when trauma experts and real experts
105. 66:04 keep saying that trauma is something that happens like a natural disaster, a war, they said this is the trauma. They are actually not giving hope to anyone. Okay, there’s a war. does what can I do about it? I cannot do anything about it. It’s a hopeless situation and it’s also wrong. Uh this is the difference between what we call external locus of control and internal locus of control. Internal locus of control is when we believe when we believe that we are in control of our lives and our minds. We decide what keep saying that trauma is something that happens like a natural disaster, a war, they said this is the trauma. They are actually not giving hope to anyone. Okay, there’s a war. does what can I do about it? I cannot do anything about it. It’s a hopeless situation and it’s also wrong. Uh this is the difference between what we call external locus of control and internal locus of control. Internal locus of control is when we believe when we believe that we are in control of our lives and our minds. We decide what
106. 66:45 happens in our life and we decide what happens in our mind. Nobody else. Consequently, of course, nobody else is responsible for what is happening to us. We are in charge. So the buck stops with us. We are responsible for everything that happens. This is called internal locus of control and is considered healthy. External locus of control means that other people, events, institutions, society, history, they are they determine your life. They determine what happens to you. They determine your state of mind. You are not in charge. happens in our life and we decide what happens in our mind. Nobody else. Consequently, of course, nobody else is responsible for what is happening to us. We are in charge. So the buck stops with us. We are responsible for everything that happens. This is called internal locus of control and is considered healthy. External locus of control means that other people, events, institutions, society, history, they are they determine your life. They determine what happens to you. They determine your state of mind. You are not in charge.
107. 67:29 You are not in control. Everything is happening to you. This is external locus of control and is considered very unhealthy. When people say trauma is external, trauma is the holocaust, trauma is war, trauma is relationships with the narcissist, that’s the trauma. They’re telling you to have an external locus of control. Everything that’s happening to you is not your fault, not your responsibility, and there’s nothing you can do about it because the trauma is external. End of story. Go home. You are not in control. Everything is happening to you. This is external locus of control and is considered very unhealthy. When people say trauma is external, trauma is the holocaust, trauma is war, trauma is relationships with the narcissist, that’s the trauma. They’re telling you to have an external locus of control. Everything that’s happening to you is not your fault, not your responsibility, and there’s nothing you can do about it because the trauma is external. End of story. Go home.
108. 68:05 You need to develop an internal locus of control. You need to say I decide if I get traumatized. I decide. Trauma is my choice. Trauma is my decision. I may decide to be traumatized, but it’s definitely my decision. My choice. The way you relate to the world. We know from studies, for example, that people who are pessimistic are much more likely to to be traumatized than people who are optimistic. We know that from studies. We know that people with um certain types of personalities are much less likely to be You need to develop an internal locus of control. You need to say I decide if I get traumatized. I decide. Trauma is my choice. Trauma is my decision. I may decide to be traumatized, but it’s definitely my decision. My choice. The way you relate to the world. We know from studies, for example, that people who are pessimistic are much more likely to to be traumatized than people who are optimistic. We know that from studies. We know that people with um certain types of personalities are much less likely to be
109. 68:38 traumatized than other types of personalities. So it does seem to depend on you to some extent. Regain this agency, regain this sense of control, regain the inner locus of control and tell yourself that many things in human life that appear to be imposed on you are actually your choices. That includes mate selection. That includes uh staying in touch with certain people. That includes being traumatized. That includes falling in love. These are choices. Nothing happens to you. You make things happen. I’m not talking, traumatized than other types of personalities. So it does seem to depend on you to some extent. Regain this agency, regain this sense of control, regain the inner locus of control and tell yourself that many things in human life that appear to be imposed on you are actually your choices. That includes mate selection. That includes uh staying in touch with certain people. That includes being traumatized. That includes falling in love. These are choices. Nothing happens to you. You make things happen. I’m not talking,
110. 69:21 of course, about u your airplane crashing. There’s very little you can do about this. I’m not talking about this obviously, but I’m talking about your life. I’m talking about your mind. where you are in your own domain and you should be the rulers of that domain and you should regain a sense of agency. So the nine ninefold path is a summary of all the recovery and healing techniques that I was able to to study or learn about and I summarized it in nine in nine aspects. So this is the introduction and then of course, about u your airplane crashing. There’s very little you can do about this. I’m not talking about this obviously, but I’m talking about your life. I’m talking about your mind. where you are in your own domain and you should be the rulers of that domain and you should regain a sense of agency. So the nine ninefold path is a summary of all the recovery and healing techniques that I was able to to study or learn about and I summarized it in nine in nine aspects. So this is the introduction and then
111. 70:00 later today, tomorrow, the day after we will go into details and develop specific techniques and strategies and so on so forth. The nine-fold path is divided to three divided in three. So we have body and we have mind and we have injunctions or functions. body mind functions, body mind injunctions, whatever you want to call nothing. You can accomplish nothing if you ignore your body. The tendency to focus on the mind in modern psychotherapy, most modern psychotherapy, not all, is probably the psychotherapy’s biggest later today, tomorrow, the day after we will go into details and develop specific techniques and strategies and so on so forth. The nine-fold path is divided to three divided in three. So we have body and we have mind and we have injunctions or functions. body mind functions, body mind injunctions, whatever you want to call nothing. You can accomplish nothing if you ignore your body. The tendency to focus on the mind in modern psychotherapy, most modern psychotherapy, not all, is probably the psychotherapy’s biggest
112. 70:48 mistake. Starting in I mean, ironically, psychology, the science of psych, the discipline of psychology, pseudocience, the discipline of psychology started with a body, exclusively with a body. There was a guy called Vunt. Vunt established a laboratory in Germany and he studied the human mind. He studied memory, studied many other functions of the human mind and based on the body. The laboratory was focused on the body. So psychology started as the science of the body, not the science of the mind. mistake. Starting in I mean, ironically, psychology, the science of psych, the discipline of psychology, pseudocience, the discipline of psychology started with a body, exclusively with a body. There was a guy called Vunt. Vunt established a laboratory in Germany and he studied the human mind. He studied memory, studied many other functions of the human mind and based on the body. The laboratory was focused on the body. So psychology started as the science of the body, not the science of the mind.
113. 71:25 And then something happened in Paris. There were pseudocsychologists and real psychologists and so on that started to focus on the mind. You had messmeriz and they started to focus on the mind. They said forget the body. The body is the outcome of the mind. The mind affects the body. And that’s why they focused on hypnosis. They used hypnosis a lot because they said through the mind we can affect the body. We can change the body. So there’s been a gradual transition via Paris, via France from body, the German And then something happened in Paris. There were pseudocsychologists and real psychologists and so on that started to focus on the mind. You had messmeriz and they started to focus on the mind. They said forget the body. The body is the outcome of the mind. The mind affects the body. And that’s why they focused on hypnosis. They used hypnosis a lot because they said through the mind we can affect the body. We can change the body. So there’s been a gradual transition via Paris, via France from body, the German
114. 72:04 approach to psychology to the mind, the French approach to psychology. Ziggman Freud went to Paris, I don’t know if you know, and he spent several years in Paris studying under Shoko and Jane and many others. And then he returned to Vienna. Ziggman Freud initially was a neurologist. He was not a psychologist. He was never trained in psychology, not even remotely. He was a neurologist. And he went to Paris to study hysteria. That was a big thing then, like narcissism. Today, hysteria was the the big uh the approach to psychology to the mind, the French approach to psychology. Ziggman Freud went to Paris, I don’t know if you know, and he spent several years in Paris studying under Shoko and Jane and many others. And then he returned to Vienna. Ziggman Freud initially was a neurologist. He was not a psychologist. He was never trained in psychology, not even remotely. He was a neurologist. And he went to Paris to study hysteria. That was a big thing then, like narcissism. Today, hysteria was the the big uh the
115. 72:44 buzz word. Everyone and his dog had hysteria, especially women. Hysteria was considered to be the disease of of women. As you know, hysteria comes from the word for womb in Latin. The word for womb in Latin is hysterum. So hysteria is a womb, the disease of the womb in women. And Freud went there. And when Freud returned to Paris to Vienna, I’m sorry. When Freud returned from Paris to Vienna in 1900, 1899 to be precise, he was already converted. He gave up his studies of neurology, his studies of the buzz word. Everyone and his dog had hysteria, especially women. Hysteria was considered to be the disease of of women. As you know, hysteria comes from the word for womb in Latin. The word for womb in Latin is hysterum. So hysteria is a womb, the disease of the womb in women. And Freud went there. And when Freud returned to Paris to Vienna, I’m sorry. When Freud returned from Paris to Vienna in 1900, 1899 to be precise, he was already converted. He gave up his studies of neurology, his studies of the
116. 73:19 brain, his studies of bodily manifestations because hysteria, hysteria is body. Hysteria is not mind. Hysteria is not in the mind. Hysteria is body. It’s conversion symptoms. It’s how the body manifests the mind. So hysteria is a focus on the mind. But Freud was converted in Paris and when he returned to Vienna, he forgot completely all his studies about the body, the brain, this that and he started to talk about the mind exclusively because of Freud’s enormous influence and because he was a wonderful brain, his studies of bodily manifestations because hysteria, hysteria is body. Hysteria is not mind. Hysteria is not in the mind. Hysteria is body. It’s conversion symptoms. It’s how the body manifests the mind. So hysteria is a focus on the mind. But Freud was converted in Paris and when he returned to Vienna, he forgot completely all his studies about the body, the brain, this that and he started to talk about the mind exclusively because of Freud’s enormous influence and because he was a wonderful
117. 73:57 plagiarist he stole the work of dozens of people and put it together. So Freud became highly influential and we had a situation where well into the late 80s and the beginning of the ‘9s psychology was focused on the mind to the exclusion of the body like the body was not relevant. Also psychology was competing with medicine. So psychologist did not want to be considered a kind of medical doctors. They wanted to focus on the mind. it was more elevated, more I don’t know what. And so there was a neglect, a plagiarist he stole the work of dozens of people and put it together. So Freud became highly influential and we had a situation where well into the late 80s and the beginning of the ‘9s psychology was focused on the mind to the exclusion of the body like the body was not relevant. Also psychology was competing with medicine. So psychologist did not want to be considered a kind of medical doctors. They wanted to focus on the mind. it was more elevated, more I don’t know what. And so there was a neglect, a
118. 74:36 neglect of the body, a very regretful neglect of the body because today we know that the body is a partner in healing and recovery and that without the body, healing and recovery are unattainable. It’s not that healing and recovery are more difficult without the body. They’re unattainable without the body. So very initially we saw an attempt known as the behaviorist school. We saw an attempt by psychologist to introduce the body into the equation. So we had the behaviorist school Skinner neglect of the body, a very regretful neglect of the body because today we know that the body is a partner in healing and recovery and that without the body, healing and recovery are unattainable. It’s not that healing and recovery are more difficult without the body. They’re unattainable without the body. So very initially we saw an attempt known as the behaviorist school. We saw an attempt by psychologist to introduce the body into the equation. So we had the behaviorist school Skinner
119. 75:13 and others they failed and psychology continued with the mind and then you had adaptations of specific psycho therapies specific treatment modalities by introducing mild elements of the body. So you had for example EMDR. EMDR is a variant of CBT in effect. So they took CBT and they added eye movements which are supposed to somehow cohhere or coordinate the hemispheres in the brain for those of us who have brains. So we had EMDR. There was a gradual creeping surreptitious subterranean underground and others they failed and psychology continued with the mind and then you had adaptations of specific psycho therapies specific treatment modalities by introducing mild elements of the body. So you had for example EMDR. EMDR is a variant of CBT in effect. So they took CBT and they added eye movements which are supposed to somehow cohhere or coordinate the hemispheres in the brain for those of us who have brains. So we had EMDR. There was a gradual creeping surreptitious subterranean underground
120. 75:52 subversive introduction of the body because it was still considered not okay. It was still frowned upon to introduce the body openly as the main gateway to recovery and healing. It was considered to be even superstitious or stupid primitive because the primitives were using the body. We know better. We know the mind. We have theories. So there was a lot of arrogance in psychology. Only in the past 20 years did we begin to understand the role of the body in trauma. With the work of the likes of uh Vander subversive introduction of the body because it was still considered not okay. It was still frowned upon to introduce the body openly as the main gateway to recovery and healing. It was considered to be even superstitious or stupid primitive because the primitives were using the body. We know better. We know the mind. We have theories. So there was a lot of arrogance in psychology. Only in the past 20 years did we begin to understand the role of the body in trauma. With the work of the likes of uh Vander
121. 76:31 Kulk and and many others, we began to understand the role of the body in in trauma. Again, you have real experts that discuss these issues and you have wannabe experts and self-styled experts that discuss these issues and you should distinguish the two. um do your do your homework, do your research, but body is most definitely a crucial feature. And so in that nine-fold path, you have body, mind, and functions. And we start with the body. Okay, I’ll give you now a 10-minut break. Kulk and and many others, we began to understand the role of the body in in trauma. Again, you have real experts that discuss these issues and you have wannabe experts and self-styled experts that discuss these issues and you should distinguish the two. um do your do your homework, do your research, but body is most definitely a crucial feature. And so in that nine-fold path, you have body, mind, and functions. And we start with the body. Okay, I’ll give you now a 10-minut break.