From Child to Monster: What Went WRONG w/Narcissists, Cluster B (University of Applied Sciences)

Summary

Cluster B personality disorders represent a tragic disruption of human potential rooted in early developmental trauma and dysfunctional caregiving. These disorders blur the lines between identity and illusion, reality and fantasy, self and other. Understanding the etiology, clinical features, and challenges of Cluster B disorders is essential for compassionate care and effective intervention, emphasizing the need for nuanced, individualized approaches over rigid diagnostic categories. From Child to Monster: What Went WRONG w/Narcissists, Cluster B (University of Applied Sciences)

Abuse, narcissism, narcissist, Personality, Psychology, Reality, Sam Vaknin, Trauma, Vaknin, Vaknin Summaries

January 22, 2026

Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. From Child to Monster: What Went WRONG w/Narcissists, Cluster B (University of Applied Sciences)

00:20 So first of all uh I w I want to thank the University of Applied Sciences for having me and especially I want to thank Agata and Nagonovska who selflessly and tirelessly uh organized this uh these lectures despite many many obstacles. and many reversals. She is persistent and persistence is half of the success in academic life as I don’t need to tell you. I would also like to thank Dr. Joanna Novak uh for her patience and uh perseverance in the face of my um obsession compulsion. I’m a perfectionist and So first of all uh I w I want to thank the University of Applied Sciences for having me and especially I want to thank Agata and Nagonovska who selflessly and tirelessly uh organized this uh these lectures despite many many obstacles. and many reversals. She is persistent and persistence is half of the success in academic life as I don’t need to tell you. I would also like to thank Dr. Joanna Novak uh for her patience and uh perseverance in the face of my um obsession compulsion. I’m a perfectionist and
01:04 every detail matters to me. So I apologize to her for taking her time and probably exhausting her but she prevailed and she survived and we are here together no not in small way thanks to her. And finally I need to thank the Vaknin Vangelovska Foundation. uh the Vakningovska Foundation sponsors these lectures and seminars and I want to announce because this is going to be this recording is going to be on on YouTube and I want to announce that I’m available to give free seminars and free lectures. I do not charge a every detail matters to me. So I apologize to her for taking her time and probably exhausting her but she prevailed and she survived and we are here together no not in small way thanks to her. And finally I need to thank the Vaknin Vangelovska Foundation. uh the Vakningovska Foundation sponsors these lectures and seminars and I want to announce because this is going to be this recording is going to be on on YouTube and I want to announce that I’m available to give free seminars and free lectures. I do not charge a
01:42 speaker fee in any city uh in the civilized world. Um a legal disclaimer, this video, the recording of these le the recordings of these lectures are going to be uploaded to my YouTube channel channels actually multiple channels on my YouTube channels. I have half a million subscribers. So that’s not a small number. And people in the audience are going to be exposed publicly. Um, those of you who feel uncomfortable with this, those of you who do not want to find yourself in a video on YouTube, speaker fee in any city uh in the civilized world. Um a legal disclaimer, this video, the recording of these le the recordings of these lectures are going to be uploaded to my YouTube channel channels actually multiple channels on my YouTube channels. I have half a million subscribers. So that’s not a small number. And people in the audience are going to be exposed publicly. Um, those of you who feel uncomfortable with this, those of you who do not want to find yourself in a video on YouTube,
02:24 I’m afraid would have to leave the lecture hall because we don’t have any way to blot you out or to remove you from the video. So 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Those of you who feel uncomfortable becoming celebrities may wish to leave the lecture hall because as I said there’s no technological or technical possibility to remove you later from the video. Okay. Today we are going to discuss the ethiology, the emergence and causation of what came to be known as cluster B personality disorders. I’m afraid would have to leave the lecture hall because we don’t have any way to blot you out or to remove you from the video. So 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Those of you who feel uncomfortable becoming celebrities may wish to leave the lecture hall because as I said there’s no technological or technical possibility to remove you later from the video. Okay. Today we are going to discuss the ethiology, the emergence and causation of what came to be known as cluster B personality disorders.
03:07 Cluster B personality disorders are also known as the erratic or dramatic personality disorders. Why? [laughter] Because people with cluster B personality disorders are very dramatic and very erratic. They are unpredictable. They are uncertain. They are highly impulsive. and so on. Those of you who survive this lecture and attend tomorrow’s lecture will be exposed to the debate in the community among scholars whether the categorical approach to diagnosis is correct, whether we should have separate Cluster B personality disorders are also known as the erratic or dramatic personality disorders. Why? [laughter] Because people with cluster B personality disorders are very dramatic and very erratic. They are unpredictable. They are uncertain. They are highly impulsive. and so on. Those of you who survive this lecture and attend tomorrow’s lecture will be exposed to the debate in the community among scholars whether the categorical approach to diagnosis is correct, whether we should have separate
03:55 diagnosis. For example, in cluster B personality disorders, we have four diagnosis. We have narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, the extreme form of which is known as psychopathy and we have histrionic personality disorder which for some reason no one talks about. But these are the four members of the family of of the cluster. And there is a very big debate whether these are real clinical entities whether these diagnosis are justified. diagnosis. For example, in cluster B personality disorders, we have four diagnosis. We have narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, the extreme form of which is known as psychopathy and we have histrionic personality disorder which for some reason no one talks about. But these are the four members of the family of of the cluster. And there is a very big debate whether these are real clinical entities whether these diagnosis are justified.
04:35 Any clinician will tell you that a client or a patient who presents with symptoms and signs and behaviors and traits that are typical of narcissistic personality disorder. that individual w would would be a narcissist on Monday, a borderline on Wednesday and a psychopath on Friday. In other words, all the diagnostic criteria of all cluster B personality disorders very often manifest in the same individual and this is known as co-occurrence or co-orbidity. Coorobbidity is a major problem with the Any clinician will tell you that a client or a patient who presents with symptoms and signs and behaviors and traits that are typical of narcissistic personality disorder. that individual w would would be a narcissist on Monday, a borderline on Wednesday and a psychopath on Friday. In other words, all the diagnostic criteria of all cluster B personality disorders very often manifest in the same individual and this is known as co-occurrence or co-orbidity. Coorobbidity is a major problem with the
05:22 diagnostic and statistical manual. Most people diagnosed with one personality disorder are also diagnosed with at least one other personality disorder and usually also with a mood disorder with a substance use disorder and anxiety disorder. So the new thinking is that we should get rid of all these labels that we should get rid actually of cluster B personality disorders and we should get rid of personality disorders and tomorrow we are going to discuss the alternative approach which gradually but diagnostic and statistical manual. Most people diagnosed with one personality disorder are also diagnosed with at least one other personality disorder and usually also with a mood disorder with a substance use disorder and anxiety disorder. So the new thinking is that we should get rid of all these labels that we should get rid actually of cluster B personality disorders and we should get rid of personality disorders and tomorrow we are going to discuss the alternative approach which gradually but
06:01 surely is taking over taking over the profession. We are transitioning to the dimensional approach from the categorical approach. But that is not for today’s lecture. Today we’re going to discuss the ethiology of what the DSM calls cluster B personality disorders. And of course the immediate initial question is nature or nurture. Are these disorders hereditary? Can they be traced back to a single gene or an array of genes, a combination of genes? Do they pass on in families intergenerationally? surely is taking over taking over the profession. We are transitioning to the dimensional approach from the categorical approach. But that is not for today’s lecture. Today we’re going to discuss the ethiology of what the DSM calls cluster B personality disorders. And of course the immediate initial question is nature or nurture. Are these disorders hereditary? Can they be traced back to a single gene or an array of genes, a combination of genes? Do they pass on in families intergenerationally?
06:47 In other words, are these disorders an artifact of nature? Or are these disorders the outcome of highly specific household and family dynamics and characteristics? Are these disorders the outcomes of nurture? And again, of course, there’s a debate, but I think the debate um is founded on a misconception or a misunderstanding or a confusion. And yes, I will let you in on a secret. Even scholars, even academics, even professors get it wrong many times, confuse issues, and make a big mess of things. In other words, are these disorders an artifact of nature? Or are these disorders the outcome of highly specific household and family dynamics and characteristics? Are these disorders the outcomes of nurture? And again, of course, there’s a debate, but I think the debate um is founded on a misconception or a misunderstanding or a confusion. And yes, I will let you in on a secret. Even scholars, even academics, even professors get it wrong many times, confuse issues, and make a big mess of things.
07:39 So the first thing to realize is that we should make a distinction between traits and disorders. Take for example the trait of narcissism. Narcissism is a trait. Traits are hereditary. Traits are genetic. Every human being including all of you there in the lecture hall. Every human being has the trait of narcissism. We all have what is known as healthy narcissism. The kind of narcissism that underlies our and regulates our self-esteem and self-confidence and sense of selfworth. This is the trait. The trait is So the first thing to realize is that we should make a distinction between traits and disorders. Take for example the trait of narcissism. Narcissism is a trait. Traits are hereditary. Traits are genetic. Every human being including all of you there in the lecture hall. Every human being has the trait of narcissism. We all have what is known as healthy narcissism. The kind of narcissism that underlies our and regulates our self-esteem and self-confidence and sense of selfworth. This is the trait. The trait is
08:24 inherited. It’s genetic. But the trait should not be confused. The trait of narcissism should not be confused with pathological narcissism which in its extreme form is known as narcissistic personality disorder. The trait is not the disorder. Now how does the trait become the disorder? Multiple studies over at least 80 years, that’s 80, multiple studies have shown that in the background of everyone, every patient and every client with cluster B personality disorders in the background there is a dysfunctional household. inherited. It’s genetic. But the trait should not be confused. The trait of narcissism should not be confused with pathological narcissism which in its extreme form is known as narcissistic personality disorder. The trait is not the disorder. Now how does the trait become the disorder? Multiple studies over at least 80 years, that’s 80, multiple studies have shown that in the background of everyone, every patient and every client with cluster B personality disorders in the background there is a dysfunctional household.
09:18 There is abuse, there is trauma, other issues which I will discuss momentarily. In other words, nurture is the major ethological contribution to the emergence of cluster B personality disorders in individuals. Nurture the environment, not nature, the genetics. Actually studies have shown that genetics or heredity contribute less than 5% to the variability of cluster B personality disorders. Less than 5% 95% has to do with the highly specific circumstances of the child’s upbringing, the child’s h household, the child’s There is abuse, there is trauma, other issues which I will discuss momentarily. In other words, nurture is the major ethological contribution to the emergence of cluster B personality disorders in individuals. Nurture the environment, not nature, the genetics. Actually studies have shown that genetics or heredity contribute less than 5% to the variability of cluster B personality disorders. Less than 5% 95% has to do with the highly specific circumstances of the child’s upbringing, the child’s h household, the child’s
10:14 family, and above all, it’s politically incorrect to say this, above all the child’s mother. We’ll come to it a bit later. There are two developmental pathways, two trajectories that lead to the emergence of most of the traits and the characteristics, clinical features that are common in class B personality disorder. One trajectory is when the child is cut off, isolated from reality. when the child is not allowed to interact with peers and with other people in a meaningful way. So for family, and above all, it’s politically incorrect to say this, above all the child’s mother. We’ll come to it a bit later. There are two developmental pathways, two trajectories that lead to the emergence of most of the traits and the characteristics, clinical features that are common in class B personality disorder. One trajectory is when the child is cut off, isolated from reality. when the child is not allowed to interact with peers and with other people in a meaningful way. So for
11:02 example, if the child is idolized, if the child is pedestalized, if the child is adulated and admired, if the child is told you can do no wrong, you’re perfect. Everyone else is guilty. Whenever something bad happens, you’re never to blame. You’re never responsible. Someone else is. Your teacher, the neighbor, your father, someone else’s. You are blameless. You’re faultless. Your perfection raified. This is one pathway that leads to cluster B personality disorders especially features such as example, if the child is idolized, if the child is pedestalized, if the child is adulated and admired, if the child is told you can do no wrong, you’re perfect. Everyone else is guilty. Whenever something bad happens, you’re never to blame. You’re never responsible. Someone else is. Your teacher, the neighbor, your father, someone else’s. You are blameless. You’re faultless. Your perfection raified. This is one pathway that leads to cluster B personality disorders especially features such as
11:48 grandiosity and entitlement which we will discuss a bit later. In the same group in the same category of bad parenting we have also behaviors like instrumentalizing when the child is used In order to realize the unfulfilled dreams and wishes and fantasies of the parent, the mother wanted to be an actress. She failed and now her daughter will be the actress. The father wanted to be a pianist. He failed. Now the do the son will be a pianist. The father is a medical doctor. The son has to be a medical doctor. It’s when the child grandiosity and entitlement which we will discuss a bit later. In the same group in the same category of bad parenting we have also behaviors like instrumentalizing when the child is used In order to realize the unfulfilled dreams and wishes and fantasies of the parent, the mother wanted to be an actress. She failed and now her daughter will be the actress. The father wanted to be a pianist. He failed. Now the do the son will be a pianist. The father is a medical doctor. The son has to be a medical doctor. It’s when the child
12:35 becomes an extension of the parent and the child’s role is to fulfill the parents wishes and dreams and fantasies and to cater to the parents psychological needs. This is known as instrumentalization. Another phenomenon is known as parentification. It it’s when the parent is immature. When the parent for some reason is dysfunctional and the parent expects the child to act as a parent, it is the child who is the the mother’s parent. It’s the child who’s the father’s parent. The child becomes an extension of the parent and the child’s role is to fulfill the parents wishes and dreams and fantasies and to cater to the parents psychological needs. This is known as instrumentalization. Another phenomenon is known as parentification. It it’s when the parent is immature. When the parent for some reason is dysfunctional and the parent expects the child to act as a parent, it is the child who is the the mother’s parent. It’s the child who’s the father’s parent. The child
13:16 becomes the parent. And this is known as parentification or adultification. In all these situations, in all these situations that I’ve just described, the child is not in touch with reality and this leads to what we call impaired reality testing later in life. The child is unable to interact appropriately with peers because the parents are usually overprotective and so the child is cut off from feedback that is very crucial in early development and the child is not able to develop boundaries. becomes the parent. And this is known as parentification or adultification. In all these situations, in all these situations that I’ve just described, the child is not in touch with reality and this leads to what we call impaired reality testing later in life. The child is unable to interact appropriately with peers because the parents are usually overprotective and so the child is cut off from feedback that is very crucial in early development and the child is not able to develop boundaries.
13:56 The s child is not able to separate from the parents and become an individual because there is an expectation in the air atmospheric expectation that the child should perform. The child is loved only when the child performs. Any love the child gets from the parents is conditioned on performing on meeting some standards. The love is not unconditional. It is performative love and the child learns that to be loved or to be lovable the child needs to act. The child needs to meet the expectations of others. The The s child is not able to separate from the parents and become an individual because there is an expectation in the air atmospheric expectation that the child should perform. The child is loved only when the child performs. Any love the child gets from the parents is conditioned on performing on meeting some standards. The love is not unconditional. It is performative love and the child learns that to be loved or to be lovable the child needs to act. The child needs to meet the expectations of others. The
14:47 child needs to please others and so on. And at the same time, the child believes himself or herself to be superior in some way and never ever responsible or accountable for any decision or choice or action. This is one developmental pathway. I said that there were two, those of you who remember long time ago, I said that there were two developmental pathways. The second pathway is much more classical. We are talking about abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse and of course sexual child needs to please others and so on. And at the same time, the child believes himself or herself to be superior in some way and never ever responsible or accountable for any decision or choice or action. This is one developmental pathway. I said that there were two, those of you who remember long time ago, I said that there were two developmental pathways. The second pathway is much more classical. We are talking about abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse and of course sexual
15:26 abuse which is a common ideology in borderline personality disorder, incest for example, adverse childhood experiences, ACEs. Another option in this family is neglect. When the child is ignored, when the child is rejected, when the child is virtually abandoned or actually abandoned. This is a second trajectory of neglect and abuse which also give rise. This trajectory also gives rise to cluster B personality disorders. The reaction of the child in both cases, in both trajectories, in both paths, the abuse which is a common ideology in borderline personality disorder, incest for example, adverse childhood experiences, ACEs. Another option in this family is neglect. When the child is ignored, when the child is rejected, when the child is virtually abandoned or actually abandoned. This is a second trajectory of neglect and abuse which also give rise. This trajectory also gives rise to cluster B personality disorders. The reaction of the child in both cases, in both trajectories, in both paths, the
16:16 reaction is identical because in both cases the parent is not there as a parent and in both cases the child makes desperate attempts to regain the parent. Somehow the child in both trajectories, in both developmental trajectories, the child is objectified. As I mentioned, the child could be instrumentalized or parentified. But also when you abuse a child physically, when you abuse a child sexually, the child is an object. So the child learns to selfobjectify. In order to meet the parental expectations, reaction is identical because in both cases the parent is not there as a parent and in both cases the child makes desperate attempts to regain the parent. Somehow the child in both trajectories, in both developmental trajectories, the child is objectified. As I mentioned, the child could be instrumentalized or parentified. But also when you abuse a child physically, when you abuse a child sexually, the child is an object. So the child learns to selfobjectify. In order to meet the parental expectations,
17:05 in order to gain this love, intermittent love, the child learns to objectify itself to become an extension or a servant or but never to be a full-fledged human being. Objectification by the parents is internalized, introjected and the child then proceeds throughout life to self-objectify and objectify everyone else. Objectification becomes the modus operandi of the individual and the only way the individual can relate to itself or to other people. And there is an issue of boundaries in both developmental trajectories. The in order to gain this love, intermittent love, the child learns to objectify itself to become an extension or a servant or but never to be a full-fledged human being. Objectification by the parents is internalized, introjected and the child then proceeds throughout life to self-objectify and objectify everyone else. Objectification becomes the modus operandi of the individual and the only way the individual can relate to itself or to other people. And there is an issue of boundaries in both developmental trajectories. The
17:58 child is not allowed to develop boundaries. Is not allowed to separate. Is not allowed to explore the world. Is not allowed to develop and grow. There is stunted development or what used to be called arrested development because there are no boundaries. There is of course no functioning self. What is a self? A self has two components. The first very important compo component is a sense of continuity. This is me. Whatever happens to me, whatever h whatever transpires, whatever the changes in the environment, child is not allowed to develop boundaries. Is not allowed to separate. Is not allowed to explore the world. Is not allowed to develop and grow. There is stunted development or what used to be called arrested development because there are no boundaries. There is of course no functioning self. What is a self? A self has two components. The first very important compo component is a sense of continuity. This is me. Whatever happens to me, whatever h whatever transpires, whatever the changes in the environment,
18:46 whatever new people come into my life, it’s still me. This sensation, this feeling of continuity and contiguity. This is me. This is always me. This is an integral part of what we call the self or to some extent what Freud used to call the ego. And the second element in the in the self is the ability to tell this is where I stop and the world begins. This is the world where the world ends and I begin. In other words, boundaries. When the child is not allowed to develop boundaries, there is a disruption, a massive whatever new people come into my life, it’s still me. This sensation, this feeling of continuity and contiguity. This is me. This is always me. This is an integral part of what we call the self or to some extent what Freud used to call the ego. And the second element in the in the self is the ability to tell this is where I stop and the world begins. This is the world where the world ends and I begin. In other words, boundaries. When the child is not allowed to develop boundaries, there is a disruption, a massive
19:32 disruption, a lifelong disruption in the formation of the self. Ironically, we can say that cluster B, people with cluster B personality disorders are selfless. They do not have a functional self. They do not have what Freud called an ego. They’re not egotist because they don’t have an ego. They have what we call today identity diffusion or identity disturbance. They don’t have a core identity. And so the child is in a battle zone. is at war because the innate drives, the innate dynamics of the child is to disruption, a lifelong disruption in the formation of the self. Ironically, we can say that cluster B, people with cluster B personality disorders are selfless. They do not have a functional self. They do not have what Freud called an ego. They’re not egotist because they don’t have an ego. They have what we call today identity diffusion or identity disturbance. They don’t have a core identity. And so the child is in a battle zone. is at war because the innate drives, the innate dynamics of the child is to
20:25 evolve, to flourish, to thrive, to grow, to develop, to establish boundaries and within the boundaries to become. And yet the child is not allowed to do any of these things. The child is penalized whenever the child attempts to draw boundaries. Whenever the child attempts to interact with the world and develop reality testing. Whenever the child separates, whenever the child displays signs of personal autonomy, of independence, of agency, the child is punished. The message the child gets is I love you evolve, to flourish, to thrive, to grow, to develop, to establish boundaries and within the boundaries to become. And yet the child is not allowed to do any of these things. The child is penalized whenever the child attempts to draw boundaries. Whenever the child attempts to interact with the world and develop reality testing. Whenever the child separates, whenever the child displays signs of personal autonomy, of independence, of agency, the child is punished. The message the child gets is I love you
21:10 only if and when you are not only if and when you don’t exist only if and when you don’t become I love you not because you are not because you you have existence but because you are not Because you are an absence. The child learns to become an emptiness, an absence. In order not to jeopardize, not to imperil the relationship with a parent. The child knows that any sign of being, any sign of existence, any sign of separateness and any sign of externality is going to be punished by the parent. So the child learns to not only if and when you are not only if and when you don’t exist only if and when you don’t become I love you not because you are not because you you have existence but because you are not Because you are an absence. The child learns to become an emptiness, an absence. In order not to jeopardize, not to imperil the relationship with a parent. The child knows that any sign of being, any sign of existence, any sign of separateness and any sign of externality is going to be punished by the parent. So the child learns to not
22:03 be to suspend its own existence. And one of the ways to do this, a classical a classical mechanism is of course dissociation. The child learns to dissociate. Whereas healthy children, children who grow up in normal functional households, they learn to integrate. This kind of child who is exposed to bad parenting or not good enough parenting in the language of Winnott. This kind of child learns that to integrate is bad, to emerge is bad, to become is bad, to have a self is bad, to have an ego is bad be to suspend its own existence. And one of the ways to do this, a classical a classical mechanism is of course dissociation. The child learns to dissociate. Whereas healthy children, children who grow up in normal functional households, they learn to integrate. This kind of child who is exposed to bad parenting or not good enough parenting in the language of Winnott. This kind of child learns that to integrate is bad, to emerge is bad, to become is bad, to have a self is bad, to have an ego is bad
22:55 because it threatens the parental figures and they’re going to punish or they’re going to withdraw. They’re going to abandon. It’s a terror. The terror, the fear, the dread, the angst of not being seen. The child wants to be seen and the only way for the child to be seen is to be invisible and this is the core of the lifelong dissonance in cluster B personality disorders. This is exactly why they are dramatic and erratic because they need to be seen. They are an absence. They are an empty because it threatens the parental figures and they’re going to punish or they’re going to withdraw. They’re going to abandon. It’s a terror. The terror, the fear, the dread, the angst of not being seen. The child wants to be seen and the only way for the child to be seen is to be invisible and this is the core of the lifelong dissonance in cluster B personality disorders. This is exactly why they are dramatic and erratic because they need to be seen. They are an absence. They are an empty
23:34 core. We’ll discuss it a bit later. But they want to pretend and masquerade that they exist. They people with cluster B personality disorder, their existence is performative. They perform their existence. It’s not real. It’s an act. It’s like a theater play, like a movie. They are acting their own existence all the time. And you all of you are the audience and like every good audience you should clap at the end. At the end you should affirm and confirm the individual’s the individual’s existence core. We’ll discuss it a bit later. But they want to pretend and masquerade that they exist. They people with cluster B personality disorder, their existence is performative. They perform their existence. It’s not real. It’s an act. It’s like a theater play, like a movie. They are acting their own existence all the time. And you all of you are the audience and like every good audience you should clap at the end. At the end you should affirm and confirm the individual’s the individual’s existence
24:19 the cluster B individual’s existence. You should confirm it with your feedback which in narcissism in in narcissistic personality disorder this feedback is known as narcissistic supply. So the child learns to dissociate. The dissociation is definitely post-traumatic. Everything I’ve described when the child is not allowed to become that. This is the greatest imaginable trauma. I cannot conceive of any trauma bigger than this. Of course, the child is 2 years old, 3 years old. The child doesn’t go around saying uh hello I’m the cluster B individual’s existence. You should confirm it with your feedback which in narcissism in in narcissistic personality disorder this feedback is known as narcissistic supply. So the child learns to dissociate. The dissociation is definitely post-traumatic. Everything I’ve described when the child is not allowed to become that. This is the greatest imaginable trauma. I cannot conceive of any trauma bigger than this. Of course, the child is 2 years old, 3 years old. The child doesn’t go around saying uh hello I’m
25:01 traumatized. Yeah. Explain very few children are capable of this. Child doesn’t realize that it is being traumatized but of course it is a trauma and the dissociation is post-traumatic. Now there are three forms of dissociation as many of you know. We have amnesia, we have derealization and we have depersonalization. Amnesia simply means the child forgets. The child creates memory gaps, lost time because some of the experiences and some of the memories are unbearable. They’re intolerable. traumatized. Yeah. Explain very few children are capable of this. Child doesn’t realize that it is being traumatized but of course it is a trauma and the dissociation is post-traumatic. Now there are three forms of dissociation as many of you know. We have amnesia, we have derealization and we have depersonalization. Amnesia simply means the child forgets. The child creates memory gaps, lost time because some of the experiences and some of the memories are unbearable. They’re intolerable.
25:44 They are threatening. They are fearful. And as Jane and Freud after him observed, a dissociation is a way to cope with content which is uh which cannot be integrated. So amnesia amnesiac dissociation is very common in all cluster B personality disorders not only in borderline personality disorder but also in narcissistic personality disorder and to some extent in some manifestations of psychopathy. The two other forms of dissociation are much more common in um borderline personality disorder and in antisocial They are threatening. They are fearful. And as Jane and Freud after him observed, a dissociation is a way to cope with content which is uh which cannot be integrated. So amnesia amnesiac dissociation is very common in all cluster B personality disorders not only in borderline personality disorder but also in narcissistic personality disorder and to some extent in some manifestations of psychopathy. The two other forms of dissociation are much more common in um borderline personality disorder and in antisocial
26:33 personality disorder. And this is derealization and depersonalization. Derealization is the feeling that what’s happening to you is not real. You’re in a dream or you’re in a nightmare or you’re in a fantasy. It’s like an LSD trip, like a drug trip. You know, you’re on a high. Reality is not real. And depersonalization is the feeling that even though you can see yourself in a situation, it’s not you. We know, for example, that depersonalization is very common in the sexual experiences personality disorder. And this is derealization and depersonalization. Derealization is the feeling that what’s happening to you is not real. You’re in a dream or you’re in a nightmare or you’re in a fantasy. It’s like an LSD trip, like a drug trip. You know, you’re on a high. Reality is not real. And depersonalization is the feeling that even though you can see yourself in a situation, it’s not you. We know, for example, that depersonalization is very common in the sexual experiences
27:13 of people with borderline personality disorder. They go through the motions of sex. They engage in the sex act but they feel that they are not there that this is not happening to them that they the body there has nothing to do with who they are so this is depersonal depersonalization no dissociation in cluster B personality disorder is not only post-traumatic structural dissociation the work of Meyers those of you who heard of structural dissociation. It is structural dissociation in the sense that what should have been a unitary of people with borderline personality disorder. They go through the motions of sex. They engage in the sex act but they feel that they are not there that this is not happening to them that they the body there has nothing to do with who they are so this is depersonal depersonalization no dissociation in cluster B personality disorder is not only post-traumatic structural dissociation the work of Meyers those of you who heard of structural dissociation. It is structural dissociation in the sense that what should have been a unitary
27:57 core, what should have been a core identity, what should have be what should have emerged as an integrated constellated self instead fragmented and fractured and broke apart because of the dissociation maybe. So instead of a unitary self, we have multiple self states in cluster B personality disorders. This is very very well documented in borderline personality disorder of course where dissociation is a diagnostic criterion in the DSM but it’s also well documented in narcissistic personality disorder. core, what should have been a core identity, what should have be what should have emerged as an integrated constellated self instead fragmented and fractured and broke apart because of the dissociation maybe. So instead of a unitary self, we have multiple self states in cluster B personality disorders. This is very very well documented in borderline personality disorder of course where dissociation is a diagnostic criterion in the DSM but it’s also well documented in narcissistic personality disorder.
28:44 In the 60s and the 70s there was a school known as the object relations school and they were talking especially Winnott and and Fairburn and Gantry and others they were talking about the true self and the false self the as if personality. Now obviously if there are two selves then we are talking about self states. We are talking about a fragmented broken self. So we could generalize and say that in all cluster B personality disorder there is a diffusion of identity. There is a problem with the integrity and the constellation of the In the 60s and the 70s there was a school known as the object relations school and they were talking especially Winnott and and Fairburn and Gantry and others they were talking about the true self and the false self the as if personality. Now obviously if there are two selves then we are talking about self states. We are talking about a fragmented broken self. So we could generalize and say that in all cluster B personality disorder there is a diffusion of identity. There is a problem with the integrity and the constellation of the
29:28 self. The self is cracked somehow, broken somehow. And so the dissociation leads to the emergence of self states. In the case of pathological narcissism, one of the self states is known as the false self. The false self is a kind of imaginary friend. Put yourself in the shoes. I’m looking at you now on the screen. For those of you who forgot the introduction, I’m looking at you on the screen. Apologies for my profile. I’m overeating. So, in pathological narcissism, we have false self. self. The self is cracked somehow, broken somehow. And so the dissociation leads to the emergence of self states. In the case of pathological narcissism, one of the self states is known as the false self. The false self is a kind of imaginary friend. Put yourself in the shoes. I’m looking at you now on the screen. For those of you who forgot the introduction, I’m looking at you on the screen. Apologies for my profile. I’m overeating. So, in pathological narcissism, we have false self.
30:14 Put yourself in the shoes of the child. The ch there’s a child. The child is usually 18 to 36 months old. um cluster B personality disorders emerge usually between 18 and 36 months old and then much later in life between 12 years old and 14 years old. So imagine that you’re a child and you are like two years old and you have a mother and the mother does not allow you is overprotective does not allow you to separate from her is always in your life doesn’t allow you to interact with peers doesn’t allow you Put yourself in the shoes of the child. The ch there’s a child. The child is usually 18 to 36 months old. um cluster B personality disorders emerge usually between 18 and 36 months old and then much later in life between 12 years old and 14 years old. So imagine that you’re a child and you are like two years old and you have a mother and the mother does not allow you is overprotective does not allow you to separate from her is always in your life doesn’t allow you to interact with peers doesn’t allow you
30:54 to go out to experience experience the losses and the damage that reality inflicts which are major engines of development Or you’re 2 years old and the mother couldn’t care less about you, abandons you, neglects you, doesn’t see you. Or you’re 2 years old and you experience physical abuse and verbal abuse and worse. Imagine all these situations. You’re two years old. What can you do to defend yourself? What kind of defense is open to you as a 2-year-old? not much. So the typical 2-year-old who is exposed to go out to experience experience the losses and the damage that reality inflicts which are major engines of development Or you’re 2 years old and the mother couldn’t care less about you, abandons you, neglects you, doesn’t see you. Or you’re 2 years old and you experience physical abuse and verbal abuse and worse. Imagine all these situations. You’re two years old. What can you do to defend yourself? What kind of defense is open to you as a 2-year-old? not much. So the typical 2-year-old who is exposed
31:40 to these kind of situations is resilient is resilient and survives. But a small minority of children are not resilient probably genetically. There’s probably a hereditary predisposition to develop cluster B personality disorder. We don’t have any proof of that yet. No evidence of this. But it makes a lot of sense because we know that there is a hereditary predisposition in borderline personality disorder and in antisocial personality disorder. It makes sense that it would apply to all cluster B. to these kind of situations is resilient is resilient and survives. But a small minority of children are not resilient probably genetically. There’s probably a hereditary predisposition to develop cluster B personality disorder. We don’t have any proof of that yet. No evidence of this. But it makes a lot of sense because we know that there is a hereditary predisposition in borderline personality disorder and in antisocial personality disorder. It makes sense that it would apply to all cluster B.
32:19 So a small group of children something between 10 and 15% of children are vulnerable. They’re vulnerable. They’re susceptible. the fragile. And when they are exposed to this kind of mistreatment and abuse and trauma, the absence of the parent or the overpresence of the parent, they react by dissociating. They delete delete themselves. They vanish. They disappear and they disappear into a black hole of memory. They suspend themselves. They die metaphorically. The child dies metaphorically. So a small group of children something between 10 and 15% of children are vulnerable. They’re vulnerable. They’re susceptible. the fragile. And when they are exposed to this kind of mistreatment and abuse and trauma, the absence of the parent or the overpresence of the parent, they react by dissociating. They delete delete themselves. They vanish. They disappear and they disappear into a black hole of memory. They suspend themselves. They die metaphorically. The child dies metaphorically.
33:10 Instead, what many of these children do, they invent an imaginary friend and they begin to interact with the imaginary friend. Now the imaginary friend is everything the child is not because the role of the imaginary friend is to protect the child. The role of the imaginary friend is to isolate the child. The role of the imaginary friend is to deflect deflect the content which is unbearable and intolerable like the abuse or the trauma or the mistreatment. So the the false self, this imaginary friend is like a firewall Instead, what many of these children do, they invent an imaginary friend and they begin to interact with the imaginary friend. Now the imaginary friend is everything the child is not because the role of the imaginary friend is to protect the child. The role of the imaginary friend is to isolate the child. The role of the imaginary friend is to deflect deflect the content which is unbearable and intolerable like the abuse or the trauma or the mistreatment. So the the false self, this imaginary friend is like a firewall
33:53 like a a peripheral perimeter defense which doesn’t allow bad content, bad experiences, bad memories to reach the child. And so this imaginary friend is everything the child is not. The child is helpless. This imaginary friend is all powerful, omnipotent. The child cannot predict the behavior of the adults because the adults in this kind of child’s life, the adults are capricious, arbitrary, unpredictable, aggressive, dangerous and so on. So the child cannot predict their behavior. Child is terrified of this uncertainty. like a a peripheral perimeter defense which doesn’t allow bad content, bad experiences, bad memories to reach the child. And so this imaginary friend is everything the child is not. The child is helpless. This imaginary friend is all powerful, omnipotent. The child cannot predict the behavior of the adults because the adults in this kind of child’s life, the adults are capricious, arbitrary, unpredictable, aggressive, dangerous and so on. So the child cannot predict their behavior. Child is terrified of this uncertainty.
34:40 The adult instead of a source of comfort, instead of being a secure base, the adult becomes the source of anxiety and terror and fear and dysfunction. So the false self, the imaginary friend is all knowing, omniscient. The child begins to believe that it is somehow defective. We’ll discuss it a bit later. The child begins to believe itself to to be less than perfect, imperfect, defective, problematic, unworthy, unlovable. The false self, the imaginary frame is perfection, raified. It’s a perfect The adult instead of a source of comfort, instead of being a secure base, the adult becomes the source of anxiety and terror and fear and dysfunction. So the false self, the imaginary friend is all knowing, omniscient. The child begins to believe that it is somehow defective. We’ll discuss it a bit later. The child begins to believe itself to to be less than perfect, imperfect, defective, problematic, unworthy, unlovable. The false self, the imaginary frame is perfection, raified. It’s a perfect
35:26 entity. If you put all these elements together, omniscient, the imaginary friend is omnisient, all knowing, omnipotent, all powerful, perfect. If you put all of these together, what do you get? You get a divinity, you get a deity, you get a godhead. The child is creating a primitive individual idiosyncratic form of religion. The child is inventing a godlike figure. And this god-like figure is protecting the child. This god-like fear is isolating the child from the abuse and the trauma. This god-like figure has all entity. If you put all these elements together, omniscient, the imaginary friend is omnisient, all knowing, omnipotent, all powerful, perfect. If you put all of these together, what do you get? You get a divinity, you get a deity, you get a godhead. The child is creating a primitive individual idiosyncratic form of religion. The child is inventing a godlike figure. And this god-like figure is protecting the child. This god-like fear is isolating the child from the abuse and the trauma. This god-like figure has all
36:18 the elements and attributes and traits that the child misses, lacks, and it is a god. And the child sacrifices itself to this new molloc. The child eliminates itself. It’s a form of human sacrifice. The child destroys its own true self. And this dynamic, this mechanism that I described is common in all cluster B personality disorders. Although um people with antisocial personality disorder do not have this imaginary friend, they don’t have clinically speaking, they don’t have a false self, the elements and attributes and traits that the child misses, lacks, and it is a god. And the child sacrifices itself to this new molloc. The child eliminates itself. It’s a form of human sacrifice. The child destroys its own true self. And this dynamic, this mechanism that I described is common in all cluster B personality disorders. Although um people with antisocial personality disorder do not have this imaginary friend, they don’t have clinically speaking, they don’t have a false self,
37:01 they don’t possess a false self because they become the false self. They become the god-like figure. And as you realize when you as a child you’re two years old, you invent an imaginary friend and this imaginary friend is now your god and your protector and your best friend. As you as you understand this is a fantasy. Fantasy defense. The fantasy defense or the existence of fantasy is very common in all cluster B personality disorders. The child creates what is known as a paracosm, an alternative reality, [clears throat] they don’t possess a false self because they become the false self. They become the god-like figure. And as you realize when you as a child you’re two years old, you invent an imaginary friend and this imaginary friend is now your god and your protector and your best friend. As you as you understand this is a fantasy. Fantasy defense. The fantasy defense or the existence of fantasy is very common in all cluster B personality disorders. The child creates what is known as a paracosm, an alternative reality, [clears throat]
37:49 a virtual reality. Time for coffee. >> [clears throat] >> The child creates a virtual reality and the child immigrates, migrates from reality to the fantasy. From that moment on, and for the rest of the child’s life, [snorts] the child is going to live immersed and imured in the fantasy. People with cluster B personality disorder have impaired reality testing. They are divorced from reality. They are detached from reality and they inhabit a seaternal and infinite fantasy and they a virtual reality. Time for coffee. >> [clears throat] >> The child creates a virtual reality and the child immigrates, migrates from reality to the fantasy. From that moment on, and for the rest of the child’s life, [snorts] the child is going to live immersed and imured in the fantasy. People with cluster B personality disorder have impaired reality testing. They are divorced from reality. They are detached from reality and they inhabit a seaternal and infinite fantasy and they
38:34 survive only within the fantasy. There’s one exception and that is the psychopath. The psychopath has learned to leverage fantasy. The psychopath uses fantasy, weaponizes fantasy in order to manipulate other people and obtain goals. Consequently, the psychopath has a preserved reality testing, but is still making use of fantasy much more than a normal or healthy person. Fantasy is a key feature, absolutely key determinant in cluster B personality disorder. These people are no longer with us. They are not in reality. survive only within the fantasy. There’s one exception and that is the psychopath. The psychopath has learned to leverage fantasy. The psychopath uses fantasy, weaponizes fantasy in order to manipulate other people and obtain goals. Consequently, the psychopath has a preserved reality testing, but is still making use of fantasy much more than a normal or healthy person. Fantasy is a key feature, absolutely key determinant in cluster B personality disorder. These people are no longer with us. They are not in reality.
39:21 They are not embedded in reality. They do not perceive reality appropriately. They have cognitive distortions which are extreme and all pervasive. And in this sense, [clears throat] I would tend to agree with Ottokberg. Otto Kenberg suggested that people with narcissistic and borderline personality organization are actually pseudocsychotic. They are on the verge of psychosis. So they’re between neurosis and psychosis. And that’s why it’s called borderline. It’s a border. The pseudocssychotic element in these They are not embedded in reality. They do not perceive reality appropriately. They have cognitive distortions which are extreme and all pervasive. And in this sense, [clears throat] I would tend to agree with Ottokberg. Otto Kenberg suggested that people with narcissistic and borderline personality organization are actually pseudocsychotic. They are on the verge of psychosis. So they’re between neurosis and psychosis. And that’s why it’s called borderline. It’s a border. The pseudocssychotic element in these
40:02 disorders is massive is very important and one of the clinical features of psychosis of psychotic disorders is hyper reflexivity. Hyperreflexivity we’ll discuss it in in a few minutes. Hyperreflexivity is also common in cluster B personality disorders. This raises the issue whether cluster B personality disorders are not actually psychotic, whether this is not a mild form of psychosis. And there are very good arguments um in favor of this view. For example, the ideology, the ideological existence disorders is massive is very important and one of the clinical features of psychosis of psychotic disorders is hyper reflexivity. Hyperreflexivity we’ll discuss it in in a few minutes. Hyperreflexivity is also common in cluster B personality disorders. This raises the issue whether cluster B personality disorders are not actually psychotic, whether this is not a mild form of psychosis. And there are very good arguments um in favor of this view. For example, the ideology, the ideological existence
40:49 of trauma, the extreme dissociation, the hyper reflexivity, they are all common in psychotic disorders. And so it’s an intriguing new direction in thinking about cluster B personality disorders. when I started this uh lecture when we were all much younger um I mentioned that it is the mother it is the mother that is important now this is politically incorrect in Cambridge for example when I say this they’re not happy they’re extremely unhappy um but it is the truth unfortunately when I say Mother. I want to be clear. of trauma, the extreme dissociation, the hyper reflexivity, they are all common in psychotic disorders. And so it’s an intriguing new direction in thinking about cluster B personality disorders. when I started this uh lecture when we were all much younger um I mentioned that it is the mother it is the mother that is important now this is politically incorrect in Cambridge for example when I say this they’re not happy they’re extremely unhappy um but it is the truth unfortunately when I say Mother. I want to be clear.
41:39 Mother is anyone who fulfills the maternal functions. If the physical biological mother is absent and it is the father who is fulfilling the maternal functions, then the father is the mother. It could be the grandmother. It could be the grandfather. It could be a neighbor. It could be a foster family. Anyone who fulfills the caregiving maternal functions is a mother. Now in the vast majority of cases it is the biological mother and the biological mother is extremely crucial to proper development, Mother is anyone who fulfills the maternal functions. If the physical biological mother is absent and it is the father who is fulfilling the maternal functions, then the father is the mother. It could be the grandmother. It could be the grandfather. It could be a neighbor. It could be a foster family. Anyone who fulfills the caregiving maternal functions is a mother. Now in the vast majority of cases it is the biological mother and the biological mother is extremely crucial to proper development,
42:19 psychological development, to proper growth in the first 36 months. And yes, the father is a lot less important and a lot less relevant until the age of 36 months. Again, this is politically incorrect. You’re not supposed to say that, especially in the West. And if you say it, you are a sexist and a racist and a homophobe and I don’t know what else. But it happens to be the truth. It is the mother or the maternal figure who determines whether the child emerges from these first 36 months separated and individuated. psychological development, to proper growth in the first 36 months. And yes, the father is a lot less important and a lot less relevant until the age of 36 months. Again, this is politically incorrect. You’re not supposed to say that, especially in the West. And if you say it, you are a sexist and a racist and a homophobe and I don’t know what else. But it happens to be the truth. It is the mother or the maternal figure who determines whether the child emerges from these first 36 months separated and individuated.
43:01 Whether the child emerges mentally healthy with clear boundaries with a functioning self with a core identity. It is the mother that decides this and only the mother. And so Wimikot coined the phrase good enough mother to describe a mother who actually fulfills these functions. A mother who allows the child to separate, encourages the child to separate. Hines cohort suggested that a mother should actually foster and engender grandiosity in the child so that the child can separate from her and take on the world. at age Whether the child emerges mentally healthy with clear boundaries with a functioning self with a core identity. It is the mother that decides this and only the mother. And so Wimikot coined the phrase good enough mother to describe a mother who actually fulfills these functions. A mother who allows the child to separate, encourages the child to separate. Hines cohort suggested that a mother should actually foster and engender grandiosity in the child so that the child can separate from her and take on the world. at age
43:46 two years. So a mother who is good at being a secure base, a mother who transmits to the child, who broadcast to the child, a mother who tells the child in effect, it is safe, it is secure. I’m always here. I will never abandon you. You can go. You can explore the world. You can separate from me. You can play with your peers. You can discover things. You can get hurt. You can experience loss. And I will always be here. You can come back to me. Raphmo. This is known as Raphase. You can come back to me because two years. So a mother who is good at being a secure base, a mother who transmits to the child, who broadcast to the child, a mother who tells the child in effect, it is safe, it is secure. I’m always here. I will never abandon you. You can go. You can explore the world. You can separate from me. You can play with your peers. You can discover things. You can get hurt. You can experience loss. And I will always be here. You can come back to me. Raphmo. This is known as Raphase. You can come back to me because
44:32 I will always be here. I am your secure base. That’s a good enough mother. But unfortunately, many mothers are not like that. They are narcissistic or they are insecure or they are depressive or they’re overprotective and they do not allow the child to separate. And when the child tries to separate, attempts to separate, they punish the child. They emotionally blackmail the child. They don’t allow the child to go away to explore the universe. They don’t let it happen. No way. They isolate the child. I will always be here. I am your secure base. That’s a good enough mother. But unfortunately, many mothers are not like that. They are narcissistic or they are insecure or they are depressive or they’re overprotective and they do not allow the child to separate. And when the child tries to separate, attempts to separate, they punish the child. They emotionally blackmail the child. They don’t allow the child to go away to explore the universe. They don’t let it happen. No way. They isolate the child.
45:13 And so these mothers do not allow the child to separate and become an individual. A process that Mala called separation individuation. It is a failure of separation individuation. And because the child cannot separate and cannot become an individual is not allowed, this kind of child ends up not having a self. The integration and constellation of the self crucially rely on separation individuation, on saying goodbye to mommy, on realizing that mommy is out there, not in here, on transitioning, traversing the period of symbiosis, the And so these mothers do not allow the child to separate and become an individual. A process that Mala called separation individuation. It is a failure of separation individuation. And because the child cannot separate and cannot become an individual is not allowed, this kind of child ends up not having a self. The integration and constellation of the self crucially rely on separation individuation, on saying goodbye to mommy, on realizing that mommy is out there, not in here, on transitioning, traversing the period of symbiosis, the
46:06 symbiotic bond, the enshment, the fusion, the merger between child and mother. The mother is the one who needs to break this bond and allow the child to become an explorer. And a mother who doesn’t do this is a mother who stunts the growth of the child and the child does not develop an ego or a self and so on. This kind of mother also doesn’t provide a gaze. The mother’s gaze is extremely crucial, but it’s also highly traumatic. You know, all of us, all of us would say that being born is very traumatic. When symbiotic bond, the enshment, the fusion, the merger between child and mother. The mother is the one who needs to break this bond and allow the child to become an explorer. And a mother who doesn’t do this is a mother who stunts the growth of the child and the child does not develop an ego or a self and so on. This kind of mother also doesn’t provide a gaze. The mother’s gaze is extremely crucial, but it’s also highly traumatic. You know, all of us, all of us would say that being born is very traumatic. When
46:56 you’re born, you transition from a wonderful environment that takes care of all your needs and is warm and is fluid and is, you know, great fun. I remember. So you transition from this kind of environment to an environment that is harsh and cold with harsh lighting with not sounds that are abrasive with and with physical violence. Anyone who is a medical doctor would tell you you know the they take the child they beat it up and there’s physical violence here. So, it’s a horrible transition and it’s very you’re born, you transition from a wonderful environment that takes care of all your needs and is warm and is fluid and is, you know, great fun. I remember. So you transition from this kind of environment to an environment that is harsh and cold with harsh lighting with not sounds that are abrasive with and with physical violence. Anyone who is a medical doctor would tell you you know the they take the child they beat it up and there’s physical violence here. So, it’s a horrible transition and it’s very
47:35 traumatizing. But I think the major trauma in early life is not being born. It’s not about being born. It’s when you see yourself in the mother’s eyes. It’s when you perceive yourself, apprehend yourself in the mother’s gaze. There is a period where the newborn, the infant is unable to tell the difference between itself and the mother. The the baby is one with the mother. It’s one entity. It’s a unitary cosmos. It includes the baby, the mother and everything else. The whole universe is one, a single traumatizing. But I think the major trauma in early life is not being born. It’s not about being born. It’s when you see yourself in the mother’s eyes. It’s when you perceive yourself, apprehend yourself in the mother’s gaze. There is a period where the newborn, the infant is unable to tell the difference between itself and the mother. The the baby is one with the mother. It’s one entity. It’s a unitary cosmos. It includes the baby, the mother and everything else. The whole universe is one, a single
48:13 atom. And baby and mother are one. The baby doesn’t say there’s me and there’s mother. The first time the baby realizes that it is separate, that there is something or someone out there is when the baby sees itself, perceive itself, perceives itself through the mother’s eyes. The baby, the mother’s gaze informs the baby that she I am not you and you are not me. This is a gigantic trauma, enormous trauma. The whole universe breaks apart. There’s a schism and a chasm. Everything collapses simultaneously. The atom. And baby and mother are one. The baby doesn’t say there’s me and there’s mother. The first time the baby realizes that it is separate, that there is something or someone out there is when the baby sees itself, perceive itself, perceives itself through the mother’s eyes. The baby, the mother’s gaze informs the baby that she I am not you and you are not me. This is a gigantic trauma, enormous trauma. The whole universe breaks apart. There’s a schism and a chasm. Everything collapses simultaneously. The
49:02 the merger, the fusion, the symbiotic bond, everything. And the baby suddenly perceives the concepts of separateness, external and internal, me and the world, out there and in here. Boundary. It’s the first boundary. The mother’s gaze creates the first boundary. Now, the mother does it not only by gazing at the baby. The mother does it by frustrating the baby. When the mother does not meet the baby’s needs, baby is hungry, baby is crying and mother doesn’t feed the baby. Baby is wet or worse and wants to change the the merger, the fusion, the symbiotic bond, everything. And the baby suddenly perceives the concepts of separateness, external and internal, me and the world, out there and in here. Boundary. It’s the first boundary. The mother’s gaze creates the first boundary. Now, the mother does it not only by gazing at the baby. The mother does it by frustrating the baby. When the mother does not meet the baby’s needs, baby is hungry, baby is crying and mother doesn’t feed the baby. Baby is wet or worse and wants to change the
49:44 diaper. Mother doesn’t change the diaper. Mother is busy. Mother is outside the room and so on so forth. The frustrating mother is a good mother. The rejecting mother is the good mother because this frustration, this rejection informs the baby that mother is a separate external object. It is through the frustration that the baby realizes, wait a minute, I’m hungry, but no one is feeding me. No one out there is feeding me. There is in here and out there. This is very crucial. This is the cornerstone of identity. The diaper. Mother doesn’t change the diaper. Mother is busy. Mother is outside the room and so on so forth. The frustrating mother is a good mother. The rejecting mother is the good mother because this frustration, this rejection informs the baby that mother is a separate external object. It is through the frustration that the baby realizes, wait a minute, I’m hungry, but no one is feeding me. No one out there is feeding me. There is in here and out there. This is very crucial. This is the cornerstone of identity. The
50:35 realization that there is us [snorts] and there is everybody else. And this is of course um the conceptual bedrock of object relations theories. Yes, I don’t need to tell you. A child who is not allowed to separate develops identity diffusion or identity disturbance depending on the text. This kind of child is not entirely convinced that it is separate from the world. This kind of child when it interacts with other people he tends to assimilate them. It tends to internalize them. It tends to swallow realization that there is us [snorts] and there is everybody else. And this is of course um the conceptual bedrock of object relations theories. Yes, I don’t need to tell you. A child who is not allowed to separate develops identity diffusion or identity disturbance depending on the text. This kind of child is not entirely convinced that it is separate from the world. This kind of child when it interacts with other people he tends to assimilate them. It tends to internalize them. It tends to swallow
51:19 them and digest them. He tends to snapshot them. This kind of child doesn’t know the difference between external and internal. So he tries to internalize everyone and everything. He doesn’t have the capacity to relate to the outside world as an outside world. And this is known as hyperreflexivity. The major clinical feature of psychotic disorders. The in inability to distinguish between internal objects and external objects is a key feature in cluster B personality disorders. And it is really bad, seriously bad in them and digest them. He tends to snapshot them. This kind of child doesn’t know the difference between external and internal. So he tries to internalize everyone and everything. He doesn’t have the capacity to relate to the outside world as an outside world. And this is known as hyperreflexivity. The major clinical feature of psychotic disorders. The in inability to distinguish between internal objects and external objects is a key feature in cluster B personality disorders. And it is really bad, seriously bad in
52:01 narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder where for example the narcissist converts people into internal objects and continues to interact with internal objects. never with the external object. The narcissist is incapable of perceiving the externality and separateness of objects out there. What he does, he snapshots. He takes a photo of other people, photos of other people. He internalizes these photos. He photoshops them. He idealizes them. He devalues them. And then he continues to narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder where for example the narcissist converts people into internal objects and continues to interact with internal objects. never with the external object. The narcissist is incapable of perceiving the externality and separateness of objects out there. What he does, he snapshots. He takes a photo of other people, photos of other people. He internalizes these photos. He photoshops them. He idealizes them. He devalues them. And then he continues to
52:43 interact with the internal object. And if you as an external object, if you contradict the internal object, if you conflict with the internal object, if you challenge the internal object, if you undermine the internal object, if you put the internal object in doubt, because you are independent, because you’re autonomous, because you have agency, because you make decisions and choices, because you have friends and family, because you travel, because you have a job. In other words, you have a life. interact with the internal object. And if you as an external object, if you contradict the internal object, if you conflict with the internal object, if you challenge the internal object, if you undermine the internal object, if you put the internal object in doubt, because you are independent, because you’re autonomous, because you have agency, because you make decisions and choices, because you have friends and family, because you travel, because you have a job. In other words, you have a life.
53:13 By having a life, you as an external object, you are challenging your representation in the narcissist’s mind and you become an enemy. You become the narcissist’s enemy because you are undermining the precarious equilibrium in the narcissist’s mind between all the internal objects, all the introjects. So the child’s inability to distinguish external from internal because of a dysfunctional mother who is not providing a gaze who is not allowing separation individuation. This inability By having a life, you as an external object, you are challenging your representation in the narcissist’s mind and you become an enemy. You become the narcissist’s enemy because you are undermining the precarious equilibrium in the narcissist’s mind between all the internal objects, all the introjects. So the child’s inability to distinguish external from internal because of a dysfunctional mother who is not providing a gaze who is not allowing separation individuation. This inability
53:55 is lifelong in cluster B personality disorders and is the main reason and engine behind the difficulties that people with cluster B personality disorders have in their interpersonal relationships. They can’t see you as a separate person with your own dreams and hopes and wishes and fears and priorities and and privileges and and hopes and expectations. He can’t see you as external. He can’t see you as separate. And so he wants to swallow you, to assimilate you, to digest you. He wants is lifelong in cluster B personality disorders and is the main reason and engine behind the difficulties that people with cluster B personality disorders have in their interpersonal relationships. They can’t see you as a separate person with your own dreams and hopes and wishes and fears and priorities and and privileges and and hopes and expectations. He can’t see you as external. He can’t see you as separate. And so he wants to swallow you, to assimilate you, to digest you. He wants
54:36 you to become an extension. We’re going to discuss this in the third lecture. The third lecture is a lecture about interpersonal relationships with narcissist. When you have a relationship with narcissist, how to recover and what is it that the narcissist does to you? I’m mentioning narcissist, but everything I’m saying applies equally to borderline personality disorder and to some extent antisocial and histrionic personality disorders. For example, people with borderline personality you to become an extension. We’re going to discuss this in the third lecture. The third lecture is a lecture about interpersonal relationships with narcissist. When you have a relationship with narcissist, how to recover and what is it that the narcissist does to you? I’m mentioning narcissist, but everything I’m saying applies equally to borderline personality disorder and to some extent antisocial and histrionic personality disorders. For example, people with borderline personality
55:06 disorder idealize and devalue people. Cycle the cycle of idealization and devaluation is common in borderline personality disorder as much as it is in narcissistic personality disorder. These are clinical features that are common to the entire family. And I think the reason is that all these supposedly distinct diagnosis are actually a single diagnosis. I think okay so here you are you’re 2 years old 3 years old maybe you are severely damaged severely damaged. You’re terrorized you are any love you receive is disorder idealize and devalue people. Cycle the cycle of idealization and devaluation is common in borderline personality disorder as much as it is in narcissistic personality disorder. These are clinical features that are common to the entire family. And I think the reason is that all these supposedly distinct diagnosis are actually a single diagnosis. I think okay so here you are you’re 2 years old 3 years old maybe you are severely damaged severely damaged. You’re terrorized you are any love you receive is
55:52 intermittent and conditional. Um, you can’t tell the difference between external and internal. You don’t have a sense of self continuity. Um, you’re discontinuous. You are dissociative. You have memory gaps. You live in a fantasy. You and and you are just three years old. A three year old. As you can see, the damage is enormous. enormous damage which carries on lifelong and makes cluster B personality disorders very difficult to treat. Very difficult to treat if not untreatable. Yeah. intermittent and conditional. Um, you can’t tell the difference between external and internal. You don’t have a sense of self continuity. Um, you’re discontinuous. You are dissociative. You have memory gaps. You live in a fantasy. You and and you are just three years old. A three year old. As you can see, the damage is enormous. enormous damage which carries on lifelong and makes cluster B personality disorders very difficult to treat. Very difficult to treat if not untreatable. Yeah.
56:36 Because the child chooses to withdraw, the child adopts avoidant strategies. The environment is so inhospitable. The environment is so hostile that the child withdraws inward and establishes an internal fantastic space, the paracosm. When the child does this, the child learns to interact only with internal objects. Why? Because internal objects are safe. Internal objects can be controlled. Internal objects can be manipulated. Internal objects never abuse, never traumatize, never abandon. Internal Because the child chooses to withdraw, the child adopts avoidant strategies. The environment is so inhospitable. The environment is so hostile that the child withdraws inward and establishes an internal fantastic space, the paracosm. When the child does this, the child learns to interact only with internal objects. Why? Because internal objects are safe. Internal objects can be controlled. Internal objects can be manipulated. Internal objects never abuse, never traumatize, never abandon. Internal
57:18 objects never reject. Internal objects are your best friends or your subordinates. So the child learns to establish an internal secure base because there is a a a failure of the external secure base. child establishes an internal secure base and the child becomes its own mother. The child mothers itself and one of the things that this creates is a very bizarre form of introspection which actually involves two self states. The child observes itself. As the child observes itself, it creates a self-concept. objects never reject. Internal objects are your best friends or your subordinates. So the child learns to establish an internal secure base because there is a a a failure of the external secure base. child establishes an internal secure base and the child becomes its own mother. The child mothers itself and one of the things that this creates is a very bizarre form of introspection which actually involves two self states. The child observes itself. As the child observes itself, it creates a self-concept.
58:07 It creates a conception of itself, a narrative, an image, perception of itself. And this perception, this narrative, they are also internal, an internal object. Remember this kind of child cannot perceive external objects and cannot interact with them already at age 3 years old. So the ch everything in this child is an internal object and the child creates an internal object which is essentially the self. Now in Yungian in Yungian work and in Jung’s work in Freud’s work and much later in object relations uh work and so It creates a conception of itself, a narrative, an image, perception of itself. And this perception, this narrative, they are also internal, an internal object. Remember this kind of child cannot perceive external objects and cannot interact with them already at age 3 years old. So the ch everything in this child is an internal object and the child creates an internal object which is essentially the self. Now in Yungian in Yungian work and in Jung’s work in Freud’s work and much later in object relations uh work and so
58:51 on so forth the self is recognized as an internal object. Even normal healthy people in normal health the self is an internal object obviously. But in the in the damaged child in the broken child in the stunted child the self is not only an internal object but it is a parental object. I told you that the child parents itself becomes its own mother. So the self also is a mother figure, a maternal figure or parental figure. And here starts the problem. The parental figures in this child’s life on so forth the self is recognized as an internal object. Even normal healthy people in normal health the self is an internal object obviously. But in the in the damaged child in the broken child in the stunted child the self is not only an internal object but it is a parental object. I told you that the child parents itself becomes its own mother. So the self also is a mother figure, a maternal figure or parental figure. And here starts the problem. The parental figures in this child’s life
59:35 were bad objects. They were disappointing. They were damaging. They were abusive. They were traumatizing. The child could not separate from them. Could not become. They were child was not allowed to become. So when the child creates or recreates an internal object which is the self usually the false self. Yeah. And also a parental figure. The parental part has all the hallmarks and all the characteristics of the real parents. In other words, it’s a bed object. The child internalizes a bed object. were bad objects. They were disappointing. They were damaging. They were abusive. They were traumatizing. The child could not separate from them. Could not become. They were child was not allowed to become. So when the child creates or recreates an internal object which is the self usually the false self. Yeah. And also a parental figure. The parental part has all the hallmarks and all the characteristics of the real parents. In other words, it’s a bed object. The child internalizes a bed object.
60:20 Now when we say an internalized bed object, this is a very very long history. This is not something new, not my invention. So it has a very long history. For example, in the 1930s there was a concept of the primitive super ego. Primitive super ego was an internalized band object. And later on you have the work by Melanic Melanic Klein and many others and so on. So it came to be accepted that there is the possibility of an internalized bed object. The bed object is internalized but is also the identity of the child. Now when we say an internalized bed object, this is a very very long history. This is not something new, not my invention. So it has a very long history. For example, in the 1930s there was a concept of the primitive super ego. Primitive super ego was an internalized band object. And later on you have the work by Melanic Melanic Klein and many others and so on. So it came to be accepted that there is the possibility of an internalized bed object. The bed object is internalized but is also the identity of the child.
61:03 So the child perceives itself as unworthy, as unlovable, [clears throat] as a failure, as a loser, as ugly, as stupid. This internal object, this constellation of introjects and and voices inform the child all the time, you should be ashamed of yourself. And there is a repository and core of lifethreatening shame. Many many scholars in the field believe that pathological narcissism is a compensatory defense against internalized shame. Other scholars disagree other but I think it’s becoming a dominant voice. So the child perceives itself as unworthy, as unlovable, [clears throat] as a failure, as a loser, as ugly, as stupid. This internal object, this constellation of introjects and and voices inform the child all the time, you should be ashamed of yourself. And there is a repository and core of lifethreatening shame. Many many scholars in the field believe that pathological narcissism is a compensatory defense against internalized shame. Other scholars disagree other but I think it’s becoming a dominant voice.
61:53 Actually shame plays a major role in the psychonamic in the in the psychonamic of cluster B personality disorders. And this shame is internalized and represents the parental voices. And the whole thing the bed object the internalized bed object is the only self the child has access to. So when the child attempts to self-regulate, the child gains access to this bed object. Which is why people with cluster B personality disorders do not self-regulate. And also they don’t have access to positive emotions Actually shame plays a major role in the psychonamic in the in the psychonamic of cluster B personality disorders. And this shame is internalized and represents the parental voices. And the whole thing the bed object the internalized bed object is the only self the child has access to. So when the child attempts to self-regulate, the child gains access to this bed object. Which is why people with cluster B personality disorders do not self-regulate. And also they don’t have access to positive emotions
62:34 because of this repository of shame. Uh by the way, you don’t need to use the language of object relations. So you don’t need to use language like bed object or this is object relation school language. I’m looking at you. Uh you can use language from other schools. For example, you can use you can say automatic negative thoughts ants. Yeah. From cognitive behavior or behavioral theories. So all these theories have the equivalent of an internalized bed object. Different names with different names. because of this repository of shame. Uh by the way, you don’t need to use the language of object relations. So you don’t need to use language like bed object or this is object relation school language. I’m looking at you. Uh you can use language from other schools. For example, you can use you can say automatic negative thoughts ants. Yeah. From cognitive behavior or behavioral theories. So all these theories have the equivalent of an internalized bed object. Different names with different names.
63:15 If if as an individual you live internally within yourself. If as an individual you have no contact with reality. You are embedded in fantasy and you’re operating only within the fantasy. You can’t tell the difference between external and internal and so on. Then obviously you’re unable to perceive other people or the existence of other people. You’re unable to perceive that they exist, that they are separate, that they are external and so on so forth. You’re unable to mentalize. If if as an individual you live internally within yourself. If as an individual you have no contact with reality. You are embedded in fantasy and you’re operating only within the fantasy. You can’t tell the difference between external and internal and so on. Then obviously you’re unable to perceive other people or the existence of other people. You’re unable to perceive that they exist, that they are separate, that they are external and so on so forth. You’re unable to mentalize.
63:54 There is a mentalization failure or a mentalizing failure. Again, it’s not an original contribution. Fagi wrote a lot about this. Fogy the psychoanalyst wrote a lot about mentalization failure. And so mentalization fa failure in cluster B personality disorder is the inability to create an a mental image or a model of another person. Now all of us every human being creates what is known as theory of mind. The end product of mentalization is a theory of mind. We have a theory about the minds of other people. We have a theory about There is a mentalization failure or a mentalizing failure. Again, it’s not an original contribution. Fagi wrote a lot about this. Fogy the psychoanalyst wrote a lot about mentalization failure. And so mentalization fa failure in cluster B personality disorder is the inability to create an a mental image or a model of another person. Now all of us every human being creates what is known as theory of mind. The end product of mentalization is a theory of mind. We have a theory about the minds of other people. We have a theory about
64:41 what makes other people tick. We have a theory about what motivates other people, what they hope for, what they afraid of. We have a theory about their emotions, about their cognitions. And these are theories of mind. And we operate based on these theories of mind. But if you unable to perceive other people at all and there is a mentalization failure, a phonagi failure, you are not able to create a theory of mind. And this is where it cluster B personality disorders resemble autism spectrum disorders. what makes other people tick. We have a theory about what motivates other people, what they hope for, what they afraid of. We have a theory about their emotions, about their cognitions. And these are theories of mind. And we operate based on these theories of mind. But if you unable to perceive other people at all and there is a mentalization failure, a phonagi failure, you are not able to create a theory of mind. And this is where it cluster B personality disorders resemble autism spectrum disorders.
65:20 This is where there is a big affinity between the two families of disorders because in both cases the individual has difficulty to create a theory about other people, a theory of mind and consequently these individuals they have severe difficulties decoding other people’s emotions, other people’s behavioral cues, other people’s exper expectations. They they have a difficulty in other words relating to other people. In both cluster B and in autism, this difficulty exists because of mentalization failure. This is where there is a big affinity between the two families of disorders because in both cases the individual has difficulty to create a theory about other people, a theory of mind and consequently these individuals they have severe difficulties decoding other people’s emotions, other people’s behavioral cues, other people’s exper expectations. They they have a difficulty in other words relating to other people. In both cluster B and in autism, this difficulty exists because of mentalization failure.
66:05 In cluster B personality disorders, there is another problem and that is the problem of a def a deficient or a counterproductive or a self-defeating internal working model. Internal working model is a concept first proposed by bowelbe and expanded by Aworth in attachment theory. And the internal working model in cluster B personalities people with cluster B is very problematic is very deficient. Internal working models are theories models about relationships essentially not all of them but okay most internal In cluster B personality disorders, there is another problem and that is the problem of a def a deficient or a counterproductive or a self-defeating internal working model. Internal working model is a concept first proposed by bowelbe and expanded by Aworth in attachment theory. And the internal working model in cluster B personalities people with cluster B is very problematic is very deficient. Internal working models are theories models about relationships essentially not all of them but okay most internal
66:50 working models are about attachment about relationships about bonding about emotional exchanges about relatedness about interpersonal um interactions. And in a person with cluster B personality disorder, the internal working model is completely surrealistic and dystopian. First of all, because of the childhood experience which was very bad. The first relationships with mother with father later were very bad. So the internal working model developed on the basis of these first relationships is also very bad. working models are about attachment about relationships about bonding about emotional exchanges about relatedness about interpersonal um interactions. And in a person with cluster B personality disorder, the internal working model is completely surrealistic and dystopian. First of all, because of the childhood experience which was very bad. The first relationships with mother with father later were very bad. So the internal working model developed on the basis of these first relationships is also very bad.
67:30 And then later on in life, the inability to perceive other people as external and separate makes it very difficult to develop a reliably functional and operational internal working model. So in people with cluster B, not only is there a serious deficiency in theory of mind in mentalizing, there is also a highly inappropriate internal working model. And of course all this is because the modeling the original modeling in childhood was very bad very wrong. And that is the work of Badura. Those of you And then later on in life, the inability to perceive other people as external and separate makes it very difficult to develop a reliably functional and operational internal working model. So in people with cluster B, not only is there a serious deficiency in theory of mind in mentalizing, there is also a highly inappropriate internal working model. And of course all this is because the modeling the original modeling in childhood was very bad very wrong. And that is the work of Badura. Those of you
68:10 who want to learn more about modeling or it’s the work of Bandura. I call this whole mess I call it othering failure. The failure to other people. The failure to perceive people as other not me. I think there’s an othering failure in cluster B personality disorder and I think the othering failure is the outcome of the failure of what Koh called Hines Kohut called uh narcissistic transferences. So Hines code suggested that in self-c psychology in his work in self-c psychology coffee breakin’s who want to learn more about modeling or it’s the work of Bandura. I call this whole mess I call it othering failure. The failure to other people. The failure to perceive people as other not me. I think there’s an othering failure in cluster B personality disorder and I think the othering failure is the outcome of the failure of what Koh called Hines Kohut called uh narcissistic transferences. So Hines code suggested that in self-c psychology in his work in self-c psychology coffee breakin’s
68:55 cohort suggested that in early childhood especially with a with a mother there are three type of transferences and these three types of transferences allow the child gradually to acquire an identity a separate identity ity and at the same time to interact with other people to perceive them as separate and so on. So the narcissistic transferences that he described were the idealizing transference, the mirror transference and the twinship transference and these are very critical in early childhood and I think there’s a failure cohort suggested that in early childhood especially with a with a mother there are three type of transferences and these three types of transferences allow the child gradually to acquire an identity a separate identity ity and at the same time to interact with other people to perceive them as separate and so on. So the narcissistic transferences that he described were the idealizing transference, the mirror transference and the twinship transference and these are very critical in early childhood and I think there’s a failure
69:37 of all three of them. The idealizing transference is the ability to perceive the parent and the child is able to perceive the parent as benevolent as truly loving and caring and compassionate unconditionally and at the same time as powerful. So the parent is powerful but the parent uses the power uh to enhance or increase the child’s well-being. And this is the idealizing transference. The mirror transference is when the parent encourages the child to be a bit grandiose, a bit daring and to explore the world, to take on of all three of them. The idealizing transference is the ability to perceive the parent and the child is able to perceive the parent as benevolent as truly loving and caring and compassionate unconditionally and at the same time as powerful. So the parent is powerful but the parent uses the power uh to enhance or increase the child’s well-being. And this is the idealizing transference. The mirror transference is when the parent encourages the child to be a bit grandiose, a bit daring and to explore the world, to take on
70:23 challenges, to not be afraid of loss and hurt. That’s the mirror transference. And the twinship transference is exactly the core issue in mentalizing It’s when even when you come across someone who is very similar to you, someone who is your soulmate or twin flame or other half or whatever, you’re still able to tell this is me and this is the other person. There’s no merger, no fusion and this is the twinship transference. uh if these transferences fail, if the mother is unable to provide these challenges, to not be afraid of loss and hurt. That’s the mirror transference. And the twinship transference is exactly the core issue in mentalizing It’s when even when you come across someone who is very similar to you, someone who is your soulmate or twin flame or other half or whatever, you’re still able to tell this is me and this is the other person. There’s no merger, no fusion and this is the twinship transference. uh if these transferences fail, if the mother is unable to provide these
71:06 transferences, I think what we have is an othering failure that the individual who does not separate and does not individuate, never grows, never matures, remains stuck in early childhood. So we have adults, adult bodies with adult power, with adult skills who are actually children, not only children, very young children, infants. Peter pans, they refuse to grow. They can’t grow even if they want to. These are three-year-old infants, toddlers stuck in adult bodies. And so these children have what we call transferences, I think what we have is an othering failure that the individual who does not separate and does not individuate, never grows, never matures, remains stuck in early childhood. So we have adults, adult bodies with adult power, with adult skills who are actually children, not only children, very young children, infants. Peter pans, they refuse to grow. They can’t grow even if they want to. These are three-year-old infants, toddlers stuck in adult bodies. And so these children have what we call
72:00 primitive defenses. If you don’t grow past be past the age of three years old, you’re going to have all the characteristics and traits of a three-year-old. So even if you’re an adult, you would still be a three-year-old. You would still see the world through the eyes of a three-year-old. You would still react emotionally and cognitively the way a three-year-old reacts. And one of the things you would have is primitive infantile defenses, defense mechanisms such as for example splitting. primitive defenses. If you don’t grow past be past the age of three years old, you’re going to have all the characteristics and traits of a three-year-old. So even if you’re an adult, you would still be a three-year-old. You would still see the world through the eyes of a three-year-old. You would still react emotionally and cognitively the way a three-year-old reacts. And one of the things you would have is primitive infantile defenses, defense mechanisms such as for example splitting.
72:34 You would tend to see the world as all bad, all good people, specific people as all bad, all good. You would split dichotoous thinking. You would project parts of you which you’re not happy with, parts of you which you reject. You would project them to others. Projective identification. You would force other people to adopt and accept your projected parts and behave in ways which affirm and validate your projection and so on and so forth. Primitive defenses are very common in people with cluster B You would tend to see the world as all bad, all good people, specific people as all bad, all good. You would split dichotoous thinking. You would project parts of you which you’re not happy with, parts of you which you reject. You would project them to others. Projective identification. You would force other people to adopt and accept your projected parts and behave in ways which affirm and validate your projection and so on and so forth. Primitive defenses are very common in people with cluster B
73:06 personality disorders because they remain stuck at age three and they never grow past this age, not in a meaningful way. And all this of course leads to a lot of antagonism and a lot of conflict in the lives of people with cluster B personality disorders even at an early age even when they’re children even when they’re adolesccents even then there’s a lot of conflict a lot lot of adversity a lot of arguments a lot of aggression and there is a need to manage this aggression so from a very personality disorders because they remain stuck at age three and they never grow past this age, not in a meaningful way. And all this of course leads to a lot of antagonism and a lot of conflict in the lives of people with cluster B personality disorders even at an early age even when they’re children even when they’re adolesccents even then there’s a lot of conflict a lot lot of adversity a lot of arguments a lot of aggression and there is a need to manage this aggression so from a very
73:45 early age people with cluster B are attempting somehow to manage aggression. Some of them internalize the aggression and they become depressed or suicidal even. Some of them externalize the aggression and they become psychopathic or worse. There’s a problem with aggression. The problem not only with aggression but a libidinal problem, a problem with cexis and decexes, emotional investment, psychic energy. There is an energy issue. There’s too much energy in many ways or primitive energy, unstructured energy, diffuse early age people with cluster B are attempting somehow to manage aggression. Some of them internalize the aggression and they become depressed or suicidal even. Some of them externalize the aggression and they become psychopathic or worse. There’s a problem with aggression. The problem not only with aggression but a libidinal problem, a problem with cexis and decexes, emotional investment, psychic energy. There is an energy issue. There’s too much energy in many ways or primitive energy, unstructured energy, diffuse
74:20 energy which the individual has to cope with starting at age 18 months and the solutions the individual finds are al always dysfunctional. So if we are talking about libidinal energy or sexual energy, people with cluster B personality disorders, especially narcissist and borderline, they’re autoerotic. They redirect libidinal sexual energy at themselves. They become their own sex object. They’re attracted to themselves. They make love to themselves even when they are with another person. That’s a energy which the individual has to cope with starting at age 18 months and the solutions the individual finds are al always dysfunctional. So if we are talking about libidinal energy or sexual energy, people with cluster B personality disorders, especially narcissist and borderline, they’re autoerotic. They redirect libidinal sexual energy at themselves. They become their own sex object. They’re attracted to themselves. They make love to themselves even when they are with another person. That’s a
74:59 dysfunctional solution to the management of libidinal energy. It’s one example. Some of them become extremely aggressive and defiant and reckless and consummatious. They reject authority. Aggression becomes a management tool. They use aggression to manipulate people, to modify behaviors, to adjust the environment. These are the psychopaths and to some extent the border lines. Some of them internalize aggression. They swallow it. They and so they become covert narcissist or they become borderlines in some ways in some phases dysfunctional solution to the management of libidinal energy. It’s one example. Some of them become extremely aggressive and defiant and reckless and consummatious. They reject authority. Aggression becomes a management tool. They use aggression to manipulate people, to modify behaviors, to adjust the environment. These are the psychopaths and to some extent the border lines. Some of them internalize aggression. They swallow it. They and so they become covert narcissist or they become borderlines in some ways in some phases
75:33 of borderline where the borderline becomes highly suicidal. Aggression is a major a major issue because the child learns to identify with the aggressor. Fancy Ferency first observed that people children who are abused, people who are abused, people who are traumatized sometimes identify with the abuser, they identify with the aggressor, they internalize the traits and behaviors and mentality of the abuser. They become the abuser. I say that uh cluster B personality disorders are contagious because you become one. If you spend of borderline where the borderline becomes highly suicidal. Aggression is a major a major issue because the child learns to identify with the aggressor. Fancy Ferency first observed that people children who are abused, people who are abused, people who are traumatized sometimes identify with the abuser, they identify with the aggressor, they internalize the traits and behaviors and mentality of the abuser. They become the abuser. I say that uh cluster B personality disorders are contagious because you become one. If you spend
76:16 time with a narcissist, you become a narcissist. You spend time with a borderline, believe me, you will be become disregulated. You’ll become a borderline. It’s infectious. It’s contagious. So they identifi the the child identifies with the with the abuser identifies with the aggressor because what other choice the child has. You know Melanie Klein said that when the child is confronted with a bad mother, Melanie Melanie Klein called it bad breast and good breast which is very pornographic and cannot be used today time with a narcissist, you become a narcissist. You spend time with a borderline, believe me, you will be become disregulated. You’ll become a borderline. It’s infectious. It’s contagious. So they identifi the the child identifies with the with the abuser identifies with the aggressor because what other choice the child has. You know Melanie Klein said that when the child is confronted with a bad mother, Melanie Melanie Klein called it bad breast and good breast which is very pornographic and cannot be used today
76:49 probably. But she said when the child is confronted with a bad mother the child says mother is is uh all the child splits the mother splits the mother and there is an all good mother and all bad mother. That’s Melanie Klein’s work. I completely disagree. I don’t think that’s what the child does. I don’t think the child’s child can contemplate for one second that mother is all bad. Imagine how frightening it is if mother is all bed and you are two years old. A mother who is all bed will neglect probably. But she said when the child is confronted with a bad mother the child says mother is is uh all the child splits the mother splits the mother and there is an all good mother and all bad mother. That’s Melanie Klein’s work. I completely disagree. I don’t think that’s what the child does. I don’t think the child’s child can contemplate for one second that mother is all bad. Imagine how frightening it is if mother is all bed and you are two years old. A mother who is all bed will neglect
77:29 you, will not give you food, will not give you shelter. A mother is all bed will not see you and you will die. A child which is two years old who is two years old cannot think of mother as all bed cannot split mother. I completely disagree with Melanie Klein on this. I think what the child does the child splits but the child says mother is all good. I am all bad. It’s my fault. The child develops what we call autotolastic defenses not aloplastic defenses. He doesn’t blame the mother. He blames itself. you, will not give you food, will not give you shelter. A mother is all bed will not see you and you will die. A child which is two years old who is two years old cannot think of mother as all bed cannot split mother. I completely disagree with Melanie Klein on this. I think what the child does the child splits but the child says mother is all good. I am all bad. It’s my fault. The child develops what we call autotolastic defenses not aloplastic defenses. He doesn’t blame the mother. He blames itself.
78:08 And so when the child identifies with the aggressor, when the child becomes one with the abuser, merges with the abuser, fuses with the abuser, has a symbiotic link or bond with the abuser, which happens to be the mother. At that point, the child learns to internalize aggression. The abuser is inside. The Trojan horse is in the gates, beyond the gates. The barbarians are in the city and the aggressor is inside and the aggressor is the child. And so the child learns to internalize aggression. And And so when the child identifies with the aggressor, when the child becomes one with the abuser, merges with the abuser, fuses with the abuser, has a symbiotic link or bond with the abuser, which happens to be the mother. At that point, the child learns to internalize aggression. The abuser is inside. The Trojan horse is in the gates, beyond the gates. The barbarians are in the city and the aggressor is inside and the aggressor is the child. And so the child learns to internalize aggression. And
78:47 when you internalize aggression, it can lead to very bad outcomes such as of course uh suicide, self-destruction, self-defeat and and so on. And so this kind of child is living in a very dystopian a very dystopian world and he learns he learns to scan everything. He’s like a scanner. He’s scanning everything. The child is trying to anticipate or predict the behavior of the adults, the behavior of mother, the behavior. And in this attempt to make sense of what’s happening and to establish a theory or a model about what when you internalize aggression, it can lead to very bad outcomes such as of course uh suicide, self-destruction, self-defeat and and so on. And so this kind of child is living in a very dystopian a very dystopian world and he learns he learns to scan everything. He’s like a scanner. He’s scanning everything. The child is trying to anticipate or predict the behavior of the adults, the behavior of mother, the behavior. And in this attempt to make sense of what’s happening and to establish a theory or a model about what
79:28 might happen, the child learns to x-ray to scan the environment and develops what what I call cold empathy. Cold empathy is a combination of cognitive empathy and reflexive empathy, but without effective empathy. It’s the ability to fully um spot the weaknesses, the vulnerabilities, the disruptions, the dysfunctions in other people, but not to feel anything, not to have any emotional reaction to this. The person with cluster B personality disorder looks at you and says, “You’re sad, you’re broken, might happen, the child learns to x-ray to scan the environment and develops what what I call cold empathy. Cold empathy is a combination of cognitive empathy and reflexive empathy, but without effective empathy. It’s the ability to fully um spot the weaknesses, the vulnerabilities, the disruptions, the dysfunctions in other people, but not to feel anything, not to have any emotional reaction to this. The person with cluster B personality disorder looks at you and says, “You’re sad, you’re broken,
80:14 but this wouldn’t have any emotional resonance. It’s just identifying the vulnerability or the weakness which will allow the cluster B individual to manipulate you. So cold empathy develops very early on as a survival strategy. The child makes uses cold empathy in an attempt to understand the abuser or the aggressor without having an emotional life-threatening emotional reaction. And because the child internalizes the false self and because the false self is basically godlike, it’s a divinity, it’s but this wouldn’t have any emotional resonance. It’s just identifying the vulnerability or the weakness which will allow the cluster B individual to manipulate you. So cold empathy develops very early on as a survival strategy. The child makes uses cold empathy in an attempt to understand the abuser or the aggressor without having an emotional life-threatening emotional reaction. And because the child internalizes the false self and because the false self is basically godlike, it’s a divinity, it’s
80:52 a deity, the child also becomes grandiose. Grandiosity is a clinical feature or cognitive distortion that is common in all cluster personality disorders. Border lines are grandiose. Psychopaths are grandios. Narcissists are grandios. They’re all grandios. They are at the same time also vulnerable. Why are they vulnerable? Because of the shame, the shame that I mentioned, the fragility. The the bad object, the internalized bed object, the belief that one is unworthy, one is unlovable. So there is vulnerability and a deity, the child also becomes grandiose. Grandiosity is a clinical feature or cognitive distortion that is common in all cluster personality disorders. Border lines are grandiose. Psychopaths are grandios. Narcissists are grandios. They’re all grandios. They are at the same time also vulnerable. Why are they vulnerable? Because of the shame, the shame that I mentioned, the fragility. The the bad object, the internalized bed object, the belief that one is unworthy, one is unlovable. So there is vulnerability and
81:32 grandiosity that go hand in hand all the time in all cluster B personality disorders and they constitute a kind of narrative that allows the cluster B individual to maintain a self-concept which is fantastic which is inflated. We say that there is a there is a gap between explicit and implicit self-concept. Explicit and implicit self-esteem. Everything in cluster B there is the real thing reality which is implicit which is buried which is repressed which is denied the internalized bed object the shame grandiosity that go hand in hand all the time in all cluster B personality disorders and they constitute a kind of narrative that allows the cluster B individual to maintain a self-concept which is fantastic which is inflated. We say that there is a there is a gap between explicit and implicit self-concept. Explicit and implicit self-esteem. Everything in cluster B there is the real thing reality which is implicit which is buried which is repressed which is denied the internalized bed object the shame
82:23 the fragility the vulnerability that’s the reality that’s the implicit self-concept and the explicit self-concept is I am godlike I’m a genius I’m brilliant I’m handsome I’m perfect. I’m omniscient. I’m omnipotent. That’s the explicit self-concept. And of course, when you have an implicit self-concept that is mutually exclusive with the explicit self-concept that is contradictory. When you have this contradiction, of course, you are in a constant dissonant state. the fragility the vulnerability that’s the reality that’s the implicit self-concept and the explicit self-concept is I am godlike I’m a genius I’m brilliant I’m handsome I’m perfect. I’m omniscient. I’m omnipotent. That’s the explicit self-concept. And of course, when you have an implicit self-concept that is mutually exclusive with the explicit self-concept that is contradictory. When you have this contradiction, of course, you are in a constant dissonant state.
82:56 That’s constant dissonance. And I recommend uh for those of you who want to learn more about this specific angle or specific aspect, I recommend the work by Staloro, by Rosenfeld Cooper and Akar. I’m getting close to the end. So [laughter] um because of this gap between explicit and implicit self-concept between who you really are and who you pretend to be between the reality and the compensation for the reality between the narrative or the theater play or the movie that you are putting on and how you feel when That’s constant dissonance. And I recommend uh for those of you who want to learn more about this specific angle or specific aspect, I recommend the work by Staloro, by Rosenfeld Cooper and Akar. I’m getting close to the end. So [laughter] um because of this gap between explicit and implicit self-concept between who you really are and who you pretend to be between the reality and the compensation for the reality between the narrative or the theater play or the movie that you are putting on and how you feel when
83:43 you’re alone at home in your bedroom and there’s no one there. You don’t need to act anymore. You don’t need to put on a show or a facade and then you’re in touch with your shame. You’re in touch with your inferiority. The bad object speaks to you. The introjects a vocal viferous putting you down, dragging you and so on. So in all this double personal dual personality, split personality, it’s kind of dissociative identity disorder. It’s kind of multiple personality disorder, kind of jacqueline you’re alone at home in your bedroom and there’s no one there. You don’t need to act anymore. You don’t need to put on a show or a facade and then you’re in touch with your shame. You’re in touch with your inferiority. The bad object speaks to you. The introjects a vocal viferous putting you down, dragging you and so on. So in all this double personal dual personality, split personality, it’s kind of dissociative identity disorder. It’s kind of multiple personality disorder, kind of jacqueline
84:16 hide. Yeah. In all this situation, of course, you are very very fragile. You’re very vulnerable. You’re very any challenge, any criticism, any disagreement, any insult, any anything can completely destroy you. You fall apart. And this is known as injury, narcissistic injury or narcissistic modification which is common in all cluster B personality disorders, not only in narcissistic the narcissistic one. All of them are very very have a very very thin skin. Their skin is very thin. They are hyper hide. Yeah. In all this situation, of course, you are very very fragile. You’re very vulnerable. You’re very any challenge, any criticism, any disagreement, any insult, any anything can completely destroy you. You fall apart. And this is known as injury, narcissistic injury or narcissistic modification which is common in all cluster B personality disorders, not only in narcissistic the narcissistic one. All of them are very very have a very very thin skin. Their skin is very thin. They are hyper
85:02 vigilant. They constantly scan the environment. Everything everything you say to them, everything you do, your body language, the way you behave, they interpret as some kind of attack, some kind of aggression, some kind of insult. They become aggressive as well. And so this hypervigilance is almost paranoid, the strong element of paranoid ideiation in cluster B personality disorders. Actually in my work I suggest that paranoid personality disorder and paranoia more generally their forms of grandiosity vigilant. They constantly scan the environment. Everything everything you say to them, everything you do, your body language, the way you behave, they interpret as some kind of attack, some kind of aggression, some kind of insult. They become aggressive as well. And so this hypervigilance is almost paranoid, the strong element of paranoid ideiation in cluster B personality disorders. Actually in my work I suggest that paranoid personality disorder and paranoia more generally their forms of grandiosity
85:44 they are actually should be in cluster B personality disorder because the paranoid is a person who believes that he is the center of the world. The paranoid believes that there are conspiracies against him. He believes that he’s a center of attention that they’re maligned strategy everyone is you know the CIA. So this a person who is self aggrandizing it’s a person who is basically highly narcissistic and so paranoia or paranoid ideation and hypervigilance are very common in cluster B and because reality pushes they are actually should be in cluster B personality disorder because the paranoid is a person who believes that he is the center of the world. The paranoid believes that there are conspiracies against him. He believes that he’s a center of attention that they’re maligned strategy everyone is you know the CIA. So this a person who is self aggrandizing it’s a person who is basically highly narcissistic and so paranoia or paranoid ideation and hypervigilance are very common in cluster B and because reality pushes
86:21 back you the the people people with cluster B they live in fantasy they live in Disneyland they live in a fairy tale but reality pushes back. Reality doesn’t accommodate the the person with cluster B. Reality is harsh. Reality is unforgiving. Reality doesn’t commiserate. Reality doesn’t cos it and pamper you and spoil you. Reality is tough. Reality is tough and reality is undeniable. So there are many many narcissistic injuries, many many narcissistic mortifications. People with cluster B back you the the people people with cluster B they live in fantasy they live in Disneyland they live in a fairy tale but reality pushes back. Reality doesn’t accommodate the the person with cluster B. Reality is harsh. Reality is unforgiving. Reality doesn’t commiserate. Reality doesn’t cos it and pamper you and spoil you. Reality is tough. Reality is tough and reality is undeniable. So there are many many narcissistic injuries, many many narcissistic mortifications. People with cluster B
87:04 personality disorder are constantly traumatized by reality. Reality constantly wounds and injures people with cluster B all the time. Someone criticizes them. They think they deserve something and they’re not getting it. They are not promoted at work. Someone mocks them or laughs at them or they think that someone is mocking them. This is called referential ideation. whatever the case may be, they’re constantly injured. They’re constantly bleeding. They’re constantly wounded. And so, they are all emotionally personality disorder are constantly traumatized by reality. Reality constantly wounds and injures people with cluster B all the time. Someone criticizes them. They think they deserve something and they’re not getting it. They are not promoted at work. Someone mocks them or laughs at them or they think that someone is mocking them. This is called referential ideation. whatever the case may be, they’re constantly injured. They’re constantly bleeding. They’re constantly wounded. And so, they are all emotionally
87:42 disregulated. It is a common mistake to believe that emotion dysregulation is a clinical feature of borderline personality disorder only. That is not correct. Emotion dysregulation is common also in narcissistic personality disorder, also in psychopathy. Definitely also in histrionic personality disorder. Emotion dysregulation is a core clinical feature of class B personality disorders because they are divorced from reality because they are based on fantasy and they are not sustainable. They’re not tenable. They cannot be disregulated. It is a common mistake to believe that emotion dysregulation is a clinical feature of borderline personality disorder only. That is not correct. Emotion dysregulation is common also in narcissistic personality disorder, also in psychopathy. Definitely also in histrionic personality disorder. Emotion dysregulation is a core clinical feature of class B personality disorders because they are divorced from reality because they are based on fantasy and they are not sustainable. They’re not tenable. They cannot be
88:19 maintained in the face of information and data from the outside. And so um there were big debates about the relationship between cluster B personality disorders. For example, Kberg suggested that nar narcissism pathological narcissism is a defense against the emotional dysregulation of the borderline personality organization. He says narcissism is a defense against borderline. Grostein another psychonalist said no. Um narcissism a borderline is someone who as a child tried to become a narcissist and failed and remain stuck maintained in the face of information and data from the outside. And so um there were big debates about the relationship between cluster B personality disorders. For example, Kberg suggested that nar narcissism pathological narcissism is a defense against the emotional dysregulation of the borderline personality organization. He says narcissism is a defense against borderline. Grostein another psychonalist said no. Um narcissism a borderline is someone who as a child tried to become a narcissist and failed and remain stuck
89:09 in the borderline phase. So like narcissism is the higher evolution of borderline and so on. the many debates. Robert Hair insists that there is something like psychopathy. He says there is psychopathy and it is not antisocial personality disorder. The diagnostic and statistical manual committee they disagree. They say not true. There’s no such thing as psychopathy. There’s only antisocial. So the field is in flux. There are studies that show that when a bord someone with borderline personality disorder is subjected to in the borderline phase. So like narcissism is the higher evolution of borderline and so on. the many debates. Robert Hair insists that there is something like psychopathy. He says there is psychopathy and it is not antisocial personality disorder. The diagnostic and statistical manual committee they disagree. They say not true. There’s no such thing as psychopathy. There’s only antisocial. So the field is in flux. There are studies that show that when a bord someone with borderline personality disorder is subjected to
89:46 stress, rejection, abandonment, real or anticipated, she may become a psychopath or he may become a psychopath. Someone borderline become a secondary psychopath and so on. I think the answer to all these debates is very simple. There is only one personality disorder with different emphasis and manifestations and expressions depending on the circumstances on the environment on other people on input and output. Only one personality disorder, not four, not 16, one. And this of course is the approach of the international stress, rejection, abandonment, real or anticipated, she may become a psychopath or he may become a psychopath. Someone borderline become a secondary psychopath and so on. I think the answer to all these debates is very simple. There is only one personality disorder with different emphasis and manifestations and expressions depending on the circumstances on the environment on other people on input and output. Only one personality disorder, not four, not 16, one. And this of course is the approach of the international
90:27 classification of diseases which we’re going to discuss tomorrow. Two last comments on people with cluster B personality disorders with regards to their ideology. You remember what I said much much earlier when you were some of you were still awake. I said that you are awake. Hello. I said that the expectation of the bad parent what the bad parent accepts from the child accepts expects from the child with the message of the bad parent the dysfunctional parent the message is I don’t want you to be I don’t want you to classification of diseases which we’re going to discuss tomorrow. Two last comments on people with cluster B personality disorders with regards to their ideology. You remember what I said much much earlier when you were some of you were still awake. I said that you are awake. Hello. I said that the expectation of the bad parent what the bad parent accepts from the child accepts expects from the child with the message of the bad parent the dysfunctional parent the message is I don’t want you to be I don’t want you to
91:16 become I want you to be my extension I want you to be my instrument I want you to you know but I don’t want you to become I don’t want you to separate from me. I don’t want you to become an individual. I don’t want you to have an existence. And so the child internalizes this parental expectation and develops what is known in the literature as empty skitsoid core. Emptiness, a void, a black hole. A black hole is a a metaphor suggested by Tustin. This emptiness, this black hole are become I want you to be my extension I want you to be my instrument I want you to you know but I don’t want you to become I don’t want you to separate from me. I don’t want you to become an individual. I don’t want you to have an existence. And so the child internalizes this parental expectation and develops what is known in the literature as empty skitsoid core. Emptiness, a void, a black hole. A black hole is a a metaphor suggested by Tustin. This emptiness, this black hole are
91:55 common to all cluster B personality disorders. Actually, one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for borderline personality disorder is emptiness. So emptiness is not a metaphor. It’s not just a you know uh nice use of language. It’s real. The emptiness is real. People with cluster B personality disorders are absences masquerading as presences. They are not there. There’s nobody there. There is nobody there. It’s a void. It’s deep space. There’s nothing there. The child has learned to not be efficiently, common to all cluster B personality disorders. Actually, one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM for borderline personality disorder is emptiness. So emptiness is not a metaphor. It’s not just a you know uh nice use of language. It’s real. The emptiness is real. People with cluster B personality disorders are absences masquerading as presences. They are not there. There’s nobody there. There is nobody there. It’s a void. It’s deep space. There’s nothing there. The child has learned to not be efficiently,
92:45 efficaciously. The child has learned that its survival depends on suspending itself, eliminating itself, replacing itself with a construct, the false self. So there is actually nobody there because there’s no core identity, no self, no sense of continuity, high dissociation and so on. And what there is an imitation, mimicry, acting a human being, pretending to exist, soliciting input from other people by adopting scripts, a theater production, a movie, lights on on stage, Shakespeare. And so scholars such as Seinfeld efficaciously. The child has learned that its survival depends on suspending itself, eliminating itself, replacing itself with a construct, the false self. So there is actually nobody there because there’s no core identity, no self, no sense of continuity, high dissociation and so on. And what there is an imitation, mimicry, acting a human being, pretending to exist, soliciting input from other people by adopting scripts, a theater production, a movie, lights on on stage, Shakespeare. And so scholars such as Seinfeld
93:43 and Gantry many others have written about the empty skits core about this black hole. And this is a supremely important clinical feature. As you remember what I said earlier, the child internalizes the parental figures. Cohort called it imo. The child internalizes the parental figures. And by internalizes the parental figures, the child internalizes the parental expectations including the main expectation of the parent. Thou shalt not be. You my child will never come to exist. You will never become because you don’t and Gantry many others have written about the empty skits core about this black hole. And this is a supremely important clinical feature. As you remember what I said earlier, the child internalizes the parental figures. Cohort called it imo. The child internalizes the parental figures. And by internalizes the parental figures, the child internalizes the parental expectations including the main expectation of the parent. Thou shalt not be. You my child will never come to exist. You will never become because you don’t
94:24 exist. You don’t exist as a separate individual. You’re part of me. You’re extension of me. You are an internal object. And the la uh the last comment I want to make is the dependency of people with cluster B personality disorder. If you talk to people with cluster B, you talk to narcissists, you talk to psychopaths, even border lines, they’re very proud. They’re proud how defiant they are, how reckless they are, how strong they are, how resilient they are. They’re not dependent on anyone. exist. You don’t exist as a separate individual. You’re part of me. You’re extension of me. You are an internal object. And the la uh the last comment I want to make is the dependency of people with cluster B personality disorder. If you talk to people with cluster B, you talk to narcissists, you talk to psychopaths, even border lines, they’re very proud. They’re proud how defiant they are, how reckless they are, how strong they are, how resilient they are. They’re not dependent on anyone.
95:04 They are lone wolves. They are, you know, I talk to a psychopath, a psychopath is very proud that he’s a lone wolf. He’s, you know, but the reality is all these all these disorders, in all these disorders, the people with cluster B are codependent. They’re dependent on other people. The narcissist depends on other people for narcissistic supply, attention. Narcissist uses other people’s feedback and other people’s input to regulate his sense of self self-concept and his sense of selfworth. The They are lone wolves. They are, you know, I talk to a psychopath, a psychopath is very proud that he’s a lone wolf. He’s, you know, but the reality is all these all these disorders, in all these disorders, the people with cluster B are codependent. They’re dependent on other people. The narcissist depends on other people for narcissistic supply, attention. Narcissist uses other people’s feedback and other people’s input to regulate his sense of self self-concept and his sense of selfworth. The
95:40 borderline depends on other people crucially because she uses other people to regulate her moods and her emotions to stabilize her labile moods and her disregulated emotions. She uses for example her intimate partner and that’s why the borderline idealizes the intimate partner. I’m saying her half of all border lines are are men. The psychopath depends on other people because the psychopath is goal oriented and it is other people that have what he wants. Psychopathy is driven a lot by envy. borderline depends on other people crucially because she uses other people to regulate her moods and her emotions to stabilize her labile moods and her disregulated emotions. She uses for example her intimate partner and that’s why the borderline idealizes the intimate partner. I’m saying her half of all border lines are are men. The psychopath depends on other people because the psychopath is goal oriented and it is other people that have what he wants. Psychopathy is driven a lot by envy.
96:18 So other people have the money. The psychopath wants the money. Other people have power. He wants power. He wants what other people have and by definition becomes highly dependent on them and so on. So external regulation is very critical in cluster B personality disorders. These individuals with cluster B have learned as children that they don’t exist that they have no right to express emotions or experience them that they cannot regulate themselves. They need other people and so throughout life they So other people have the money. The psychopath wants the money. Other people have power. He wants power. He wants what other people have and by definition becomes highly dependent on them and so on. So external regulation is very critical in cluster B personality disorders. These individuals with cluster B have learned as children that they don’t exist that they have no right to express emotions or experience them that they cannot regulate themselves. They need other people and so throughout life they
97:00 consume other people. They absolutely consume them and they use other people in order to regulate their internal environment. Now you know that healthy normal people regulate from the inside. They have self-regulation. Cluster B are not the same. They regulate from the outside. And if you isolate people with cluster B, they experience decompensation and worse they fall apart and many of them become disregulated and many of them become suicidal. H in due time as they grow up they learn to supply themselves. They learn to to consume other people. They absolutely consume them and they use other people in order to regulate their internal environment. Now you know that healthy normal people regulate from the inside. They have self-regulation. Cluster B are not the same. They regulate from the outside. And if you isolate people with cluster B, they experience decompensation and worse they fall apart and many of them become disregulated and many of them become suicidal. H in due time as they grow up they learn to supply themselves. They learn to to
97:44 they learn to play the two roles internal and external. I call it self audiencing. they become their own audience. That is a much later development and it involves a critical increase in psychotic features. So this is already the slide to psychosis. That’s it. That’s an overall view of the ethiology of class personality disorders and how clinical features in these disorders emanate from early childhood causation and and so on. No. Um, those of you who are reckless enough uh and want to ask questions, I’m here they learn to play the two roles internal and external. I call it self audiencing. they become their own audience. That is a much later development and it involves a critical increase in psychotic features. So this is already the slide to psychosis. That’s it. That’s an overall view of the ethiology of class personality disorders and how clinical features in these disorders emanate from early childhood causation and and so on. No. Um, those of you who are reckless enough uh and want to ask questions, I’m here
98:25 ready to answer. You’re in a state of shock. It’s normal. You’ve been traumatized. Okay, professor. I would like to >> Oh, I’m I’m relieved. My My Polish is not what it used to be. >> I’m relieved that you transition to English. Okay. Uh, professor, I would like to say that uh after that that it was said the cluster personality disorders people are extremely unhappy. >> That’s the question. >> That’s the question. >> Yes. Yes. No. >> Are they are they unhappy? ready to answer. You’re in a state of shock. It’s normal. You’ve been traumatized. Okay, professor. I would like to >> Oh, I’m I’m relieved. My My Polish is not what it used to be. >> I’m relieved that you transition to English. Okay. Uh, professor, I would like to say that uh after that that it was said the cluster personality disorders people are extremely unhappy. >> That’s the question. >> That’s the question. >> Yes. Yes. No. >> Are they are they unhappy?
99:34 >> Yeah. Well, studies don’t show that. studies actually demonstrate that the majority of people with cluster B uh are egoonic. They may not be happy, but we don’t use the word happiness in clinical psychology, but they are egoonic in the sense that they feel good with who who they are. They feel good within their skins. They are self-justifying. So, they engage in they create narratives that justify their behaviors. They don’t possess, most of them don’t possess what we call conscience or so >> Yeah. Well, studies don’t show that. studies actually demonstrate that the majority of people with cluster B uh are egoonic. They may not be happy, but we don’t use the word happiness in clinical psychology, but they are egoonic in the sense that they feel good with who who they are. They feel good within their skins. They are self-justifying. So, they engage in they create narratives that justify their behaviors. They don’t possess, most of them don’t possess what we call conscience or so
100:08 there’s no remorse and no regret. They have very powerful defenses against shame and guilt. So the time that they spend experiencing uh negative effects which are uncomfortable, the time is very limited. They do experience a lot of other negative effects. They have negative affectivity. Negative effectivity is a trait of class B. But these negative effects are externalized effects like anger, envy, hatred, rage. So these are actually effects that support the selfnarrative like I’m I’m I’m envious because I’m there’s no remorse and no regret. They have very powerful defenses against shame and guilt. So the time that they spend experiencing uh negative effects which are uncomfortable, the time is very limited. They do experience a lot of other negative effects. They have negative affectivity. Negative effectivity is a trait of class B. But these negative effects are externalized effects like anger, envy, hatred, rage. So these are actually effects that support the selfnarrative like I’m I’m I’m envious because I’m
100:54 superior and I’m not recognized as superior or I’m uh I’m angry because people misbehave or whatever. So they self-justify even the negative effects. But if we’re talking about a more narrow definition of egoonyonyy and egoistony, they are largely egoonous. They most of the time they’re egoous. So it’s very little egoistony. However, they all go through repeated crisis. So for example, the narcissist experiences narcissistic motification and becomes highly egoistonous. is egoisty. The superior and I’m not recognized as superior or I’m uh I’m angry because people misbehave or whatever. So they self-justify even the negative effects. But if we’re talking about a more narrow definition of egoonyonyy and egoistony, they are largely egoonous. They most of the time they’re egoous. So it’s very little egoistony. However, they all go through repeated crisis. So for example, the narcissist experiences narcissistic motification and becomes highly egoistonous. is egoisty. The
101:33 borderline um experiences a type of anxiety that is known as engulfment anxiety. When she experiences intimacy, she gets terrified, she runs away, approach avoidance. So in the avoidance phase, she she’s egoistonous. But statistically speaking, most of the time they are happy golucky. I’m sorry I can’t hear you. Well, you may wish to come to the >> Is there a Is there a microphone there? Maybe. Is there a microphone that people can use? Yes, I agree. Come here. >> Does that extend to uh borderline borderline um experiences a type of anxiety that is known as engulfment anxiety. When she experiences intimacy, she gets terrified, she runs away, approach avoidance. So in the avoidance phase, she she’s egoistonous. But statistically speaking, most of the time they are happy golucky. I’m sorry I can’t hear you. Well, you may wish to come to the >> Is there a Is there a microphone there? Maybe. Is there a microphone that people can use? Yes, I agree. Come here. >> Does that extend to uh borderline
102:40 personality disorder? >> I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the beginning of your question. Can you repeat the whole question from A to Z? >> Does uh does uh what what you said uh about being uh happy golucky uh does that extend to borderline personality disorder because I know a person with borderline and they don’t seem that happy. You’re right. So >> borderline. >> Yes. Borderline personality disorder are the least egoonous of all the four. The psychopaths and narcissists are the most personality disorder? >> I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the beginning of your question. Can you repeat the whole question from A to Z? >> Does uh does uh what what you said uh about being uh happy golucky uh does that extend to borderline personality disorder because I know a person with borderline and they don’t seem that happy. You’re right. So >> borderline. >> Yes. Borderline personality disorder are the least egoonous of all the four. The psychopaths and narcissists are the most
103:25 egoonous especially overt narcissists. There is a variant of there is a phase of narcissism or a variant of narcissism known as covert or vulnerable narcissist. And covert narcissists are usually unhappy. They are resentful, they’re envious, they’re bitter. The borderline um is a complex picture. When the borderline is in the devaluation phase or when she is escaping from from intimacy and love, when she has engulfment anxiety, she would tend to be unhappy. However, uh she’s very happy in the idealization egoonous especially overt narcissists. There is a variant of there is a phase of narcissism or a variant of narcissism known as covert or vulnerable narcissist. And covert narcissists are usually unhappy. They are resentful, they’re envious, they’re bitter. The borderline um is a complex picture. When the borderline is in the devaluation phase or when she is escaping from from intimacy and love, when she has engulfment anxiety, she would tend to be unhappy. However, uh she’s very happy in the idealization
104:04 phase when she believe that she when she believes that she has found a rock or a special friend or someone to regulate her and so on. And I’m saying she again half of all border lines are men. Yeah. And she’s uh she would also tend to be very happy um when she um is self-justifying. Border lines tend to self-justify a lot. They create narrative. They justify their behaviors. However, borderline border lines as opposed to narcissists and psychopaths. Border lines do experience shame and guilt and remorse. phase when she believe that she when she believes that she has found a rock or a special friend or someone to regulate her and so on. And I’m saying she again half of all border lines are men. Yeah. And she’s uh she would also tend to be very happy um when she um is self-justifying. Border lines tend to self-justify a lot. They create narrative. They justify their behaviors. However, borderline border lines as opposed to narcissists and psychopaths. Border lines do experience shame and guilt and remorse.
104:44 They do have these experiences especially after the borderline acts out. So because of all this borderline borderline is capable of emotions. She’s capable of empathy. Because of all this, border lines are much closer um um to normal people in the sense that they do experience unhappiness much more than narcissist, psychopaths, and histrionic people. That’s true. >> Try like this. Um, >> I can see you. >> Uh, if the person is uh not not so much aggressive and not so much um like They do have these experiences especially after the borderline acts out. So because of all this borderline borderline is capable of emotions. She’s capable of empathy. Because of all this, border lines are much closer um um to normal people in the sense that they do experience unhappiness much more than narcissist, psychopaths, and histrionic people. That’s true. >> Try like this. Um, >> I can see you. >> Uh, if the person is uh not not so much aggressive and not so much um like
105:46 playing a victim, but very easily offended. like every simple thing is like a huge negotiation and kind of their first reaction is a being offended but not like aggressive or just traumatized or something that extreme. Can this also be like sign of narcissism or cluster B? >> Not necessarily. Hyper vigilance is uh h this what you’re describing is called hypervigilance. Hypervigilance is uh thin skin. Someone with a thin skin. U they interpret every every speech act and every behavior and playing a victim, but very easily offended. like every simple thing is like a huge negotiation and kind of their first reaction is a being offended but not like aggressive or just traumatized or something that extreme. Can this also be like sign of narcissism or cluster B? >> Not necessarily. Hyper vigilance is uh h this what you’re describing is called hypervigilance. Hypervigilance is uh thin skin. Someone with a thin skin. U they interpret every every speech act and every behavior and
106:28 and even body language. They interpret everything as an insult as a slight as an attack as a criticism as a so they have a thin skin. And this is known as clinical terms hypervigilance. So hypervigilance is common not only in personality disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder, paranoid personality disorder, borderline um but it is also common in other mental health issues. For example, there is something known as referential ideiation or ideas of reference. Referential ideation is when you believe and even body language. They interpret everything as an insult as a slight as an attack as a criticism as a so they have a thin skin. And this is known as clinical terms hypervigilance. So hypervigilance is common not only in personality disorders such as narcissistic personality disorder, paranoid personality disorder, borderline um but it is also common in other mental health issues. For example, there is something known as referential ideiation or ideas of reference. Referential ideation is when you believe
107:06 that other people are talking about you. So you see a few people laughing in the corner. You’re here. They’re in the corner. They’re laughing and you say they’re laughing about me. Or you see that they are gossiping in the corner and you said they’re gossiping about me. It’s all about me. So that’s an example of hypervigilance which is not linked to any major mental health issue but is linked to a mental health disturbance called referential ideation. Uh hypervigilance is also very very that other people are talking about you. So you see a few people laughing in the corner. You’re here. They’re in the corner. They’re laughing and you say they’re laughing about me. Or you see that they are gossiping in the corner and you said they’re gossiping about me. It’s all about me. So that’s an example of hypervigilance which is not linked to any major mental health issue but is linked to a mental health disturbance called referential ideation. Uh hypervigilance is also very very
107:37 common in people who have experienced trauma, complex trauma, CPTSD um or um actual trauma PTSD in all post-traumatic conditions and states um you would tend to become hypervigilant. You would tend to try to interpret the behaviors of other people and you will have what we call a negative bias. you will interpret their behaviors as something that is going to end badly for you because you’ve been traumatized. You you are sensitized. You and so this is very common in in uh in complex post-traumatic stress disorder. common in people who have experienced trauma, complex trauma, CPTSD um or um actual trauma PTSD in all post-traumatic conditions and states um you would tend to become hypervigilant. You would tend to try to interpret the behaviors of other people and you will have what we call a negative bias. you will interpret their behaviors as something that is going to end badly for you because you’ve been traumatized. You you are sensitized. You and so this is very common in in uh in complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
108:20 If you have been in a bad relationship, a very bad relationship involving maybe physical violence or extreme verbal abuse or you’re very likely to become hypervigilant. So, it’s also a result of life experience. In short, hypervigilance is not a clinical feature. It’s a behavior that is common to a very wide range of situations and mental mental conditions. Anyone else? >> Question. Can you hear me? [clears throat] >> Can you hear me? >> I was intrigued by your opinion that If you have been in a bad relationship, a very bad relationship involving maybe physical violence or extreme verbal abuse or you’re very likely to become hypervigilant. So, it’s also a result of life experience. In short, hypervigilance is not a clinical feature. It’s a behavior that is common to a very wide range of situations and mental mental conditions. Anyone else? >> Question. Can you hear me? [clears throat] >> Can you hear me? >> I was intrigued by your opinion that
109:11 they never grow up, that they are like three-year-old children. Um does it mean that they can never be successful in light in any way? >> No. There is a very uh frequent confusion between semantic and episodic. Semantic. The semantic functions are functions that have to do with the acquisition of skills and the ability to function in highly specific environments, rigid or structured or specified environments. So you could have a very high semantic capacity. So you’re able to learn new they never grow up, that they are like three-year-old children. Um does it mean that they can never be successful in light in any way? >> No. There is a very uh frequent confusion between semantic and episodic. Semantic. The semantic functions are functions that have to do with the acquisition of skills and the ability to function in highly specific environments, rigid or structured or specified environments. So you could have a very high semantic capacity. So you’re able to learn new
109:52 languages and new skills, acquire new professions and rise to the top of your profession, become a pillar of your community. um I have major accomplishments in life and all this is the semantic complex or the semantic executive functions but this has nothing to do with the episodic aspect. Episodic aspect involves life um life experience, biography, autobiography, a sense of continuity, episodic memory and so on so forth. So you could be highly immature. You could be highly immature. You could be three languages and new skills, acquire new professions and rise to the top of your profession, become a pillar of your community. um I have major accomplishments in life and all this is the semantic complex or the semantic executive functions but this has nothing to do with the episodic aspect. Episodic aspect involves life um life experience, biography, autobiography, a sense of continuity, episodic memory and so on so forth. So you could be highly immature. You could be highly immature. You could be three
110:31 years old emotionally. You could be three years old psychologically. You could be three years old in the way you cope with the world and with other people. You could be three years old in the sense that you cannot perceive other people as external objects. You have no object relations. You could be three-year-old and at the same time you could be a leading physicist or the president of the United States. These two have nothing to do with each other. Psychological maturity is not a precondition for uh skilled functioning years old emotionally. You could be three years old psychologically. You could be three years old in the way you cope with the world and with other people. You could be three years old in the sense that you cannot perceive other people as external objects. You have no object relations. You could be three-year-old and at the same time you could be a leading physicist or the president of the United States. These two have nothing to do with each other. Psychological maturity is not a precondition for uh skilled functioning
111:08 for for executive functioning. Not a precondition. It’s very bizarre that you are there to look at the camera. I look at you. I look there. Okay. Okay guys, your opportunity to to grill to grill a professor on cluster B. Nothing you ever wondered about narcissists and psychopaths and movies you have seen serial killers, you know, none of this comes to mind. You don’t want to know if ser if all psychopaths are serial killers. >> You don’t want to know if all narcissists are a-holes and obnoxious for for executive functioning. Not a precondition. It’s very bizarre that you are there to look at the camera. I look at you. I look there. Okay. Okay guys, your opportunity to to grill to grill a professor on cluster B. Nothing you ever wondered about narcissists and psychopaths and movies you have seen serial killers, you know, none of this comes to mind. You don’t want to know if ser if all psychopaths are serial killers. >> You don’t want to know if all narcissists are a-holes and obnoxious
111:49 people. I mean, you don’t have to ask sophisticated questions. You can ask, you know, questions you’re curious about. >> Oh, I have a question. uh uh if all of these antisocial disorders uh have the same core that the child sees everything as a internal object. Um uh should we treat all these disorders the same or different? So this is tomorrow’s lecture when we discuss the radical differences in the philosophy radical philosophical differences between the diagnostic and statistical people. I mean, you don’t have to ask sophisticated questions. You can ask, you know, questions you’re curious about. >> Oh, I have a question. uh uh if all of these antisocial disorders uh have the same core that the child sees everything as a internal object. Um uh should we treat all these disorders the same or different? So this is tomorrow’s lecture when we discuss the radical differences in the philosophy radical philosophical differences between the diagnostic and statistical
112:37 manual and the international classification of diseases. The international classification of diseases dictates a treatment plan, a plan of treatment that is customized to each and every client separately. The ICD says that there is no such thing as a diagnosis. You don’t diagnose. You describe the individual. You analyze the individual. You study the individual. and then you create a treatment plan that is unique to that individual and does not apply to any other individual. So this is a radical difference from the manual and the international classification of diseases. The international classification of diseases dictates a treatment plan, a plan of treatment that is customized to each and every client separately. The ICD says that there is no such thing as a diagnosis. You don’t diagnose. You describe the individual. You analyze the individual. You study the individual. and then you create a treatment plan that is unique to that individual and does not apply to any other individual. So this is a radical difference from the
113:16 DSM. The DSM is categorical. It is based on lists essentially although they did attempt something. We will discuss it tomorrow but basically it is still based on lists. So, and the DSM says if you are a psychopath, your treatment should be very different to if you’re a narcissist. Should not have the same treatment because these are two different diagnosis. So, the answer to your question, I think, is another question. Do we believe that these diagnoses are separate or do we believe that they are DSM. The DSM is categorical. It is based on lists essentially although they did attempt something. We will discuss it tomorrow but basically it is still based on lists. So, and the DSM says if you are a psychopath, your treatment should be very different to if you’re a narcissist. Should not have the same treatment because these are two different diagnosis. So, the answer to your question, I think, is another question. Do we believe that these diagnoses are separate or do we believe that they are
113:57 actually facets, manifestations and expressions of a single diagnosis underlying all of them? Like you know the famous story with the elephant. If you there were three blind wise men blinded wise wise men. One of them touched the elephant leg. One of them touched the trunk of the elephant. One of them touched the ear of the elephant. They were all describing the elephant, but each one of them came with a different description. I personally always believed starting 30 years ago. 30 years ago, I wrote an actually facets, manifestations and expressions of a single diagnosis underlying all of them? Like you know the famous story with the elephant. If you there were three blind wise men blinded wise wise men. One of them touched the elephant leg. One of them touched the trunk of the elephant. One of them touched the ear of the elephant. They were all describing the elephant, but each one of them came with a different description. I personally always believed starting 30 years ago. 30 years ago, I wrote an
114:32 article suggesting that all cluster B personality disorders are a single personality disorder. And the answer therefore to your question, yes, we should treat all of them identically. The ICD says that even though the treatment would be more or less the same, it has to be customized to the client or to to the patient. But the ICD basically adopts the same approach that all these disorders are one disorder. I think the DSM committed a serious mistake and has misled many people for a very long time and that article suggesting that all cluster B personality disorders are a single personality disorder. And the answer therefore to your question, yes, we should treat all of them identically. The ICD says that even though the treatment would be more or less the same, it has to be customized to the client or to to the patient. But the ICD basically adopts the same approach that all these disorders are one disorder. I think the DSM committed a serious mistake and has misled many people for a very long time and that
115:09 includes scholars and clinicians and so on. And again to remind you what I said at the beginning of the v of the lecture any clinician who is working with cluster B anyone no exception will tell you that the client is a narcissist on Monday a borderline on Wednesday and a psychopath on Friday. Any clinician would tell you this. So I do not think they should be treated differently. I think I think the unifying characteristics the common common denominators clinical features are so extensive and so foundational includes scholars and clinicians and so on. And again to remind you what I said at the beginning of the v of the lecture any clinician who is working with cluster B anyone no exception will tell you that the client is a narcissist on Monday a borderline on Wednesday and a psychopath on Friday. Any clinician would tell you this. So I do not think they should be treated differently. I think I think the unifying characteristics the common common denominators clinical features are so extensive and so foundational
115:50 that this is essentially the same the same disorder in my view and there is a debate to finalize the answer. There is a debate whether it is a clinical entity at all whether it is a mental illness at all. There’s a big debate about this. I, for example, do not think that psychopathy is a mental illness. I don’t think it’s a mental illness at all. Period. I also have very grave doubts about narcissistic personality disorder. I don’t know if it’s a mental disorder. I am not sure at all because that this is essentially the same the same disorder in my view and there is a debate to finalize the answer. There is a debate whether it is a clinical entity at all whether it is a mental illness at all. There’s a big debate about this. I, for example, do not think that psychopathy is a mental illness. I don’t think it’s a mental illness at all. Period. I also have very grave doubts about narcissistic personality disorder. I don’t know if it’s a mental disorder. I am not sure at all because
116:29 we will discuss it tomorrow. But these disorders are defined in relation to society, in relation to other people. They are defined relationally. So they you don’t define tuberculosis or malaria or cancer in relation to other people. Yeah, that would be crazy. Tuberculosis, malaria, cancer, they stand alone. They don’t depend on a context. They don’t depend on society. They don’t depend on other people. They don’t depend on your interactions. They are clinical entities. But the narcissist and the psychopath, we will discuss it tomorrow. But these disorders are defined in relation to society, in relation to other people. They are defined relationally. So they you don’t define tuberculosis or malaria or cancer in relation to other people. Yeah, that would be crazy. Tuberculosis, malaria, cancer, they stand alone. They don’t depend on a context. They don’t depend on society. They don’t depend on other people. They don’t depend on your interactions. They are clinical entities. But the narcissist and the psychopath,
117:14 they are defined and the borderline. They’re definited by how they relate to other people, by how they interact with society. That is to use a British understatement very very dubious proposition in my view but we’ll we’ll talk about all this tomorrow. >> Okay. I have one question, professor. Is is Nazis aware of uh what he’s doing that he hurts other people or he isn’t aware of of that? >> People with cluster B personality disorders are fully aware of their actions they are defined and the borderline. They’re definited by how they relate to other people, by how they interact with society. That is to use a British understatement very very dubious proposition in my view but we’ll we’ll talk about all this tomorrow. >> Okay. I have one question, professor. Is is Nazis aware of uh what he’s doing that he hurts other people or he isn’t aware of of that? >> People with cluster B personality disorders are fully aware of their actions
118:05 and most of them are fully aware of the consequences of their actions. So they are able to predict the outcomes of their actions. They’re able to create a theory about the world and how the world functions. Yeah. They also theoretically know the difference between right and wrong. But what they do that they create narratives, they create u explanations that are self-justifying. So, a narcissist, for example, would abuse you. And he would say, “I’m not abusing you. I’m waking you up. I’m and most of them are fully aware of the consequences of their actions. So they are able to predict the outcomes of their actions. They’re able to create a theory about the world and how the world functions. Yeah. They also theoretically know the difference between right and wrong. But what they do that they create narratives, they create u explanations that are self-justifying. So, a narcissist, for example, would abuse you. And he would say, “I’m not abusing you. I’m waking you up. I’m
118:44 doing this for your own good. I care about you. This is tough love.” Or a psychopath would say, “I stole money from you because you were stupid. It’s your fault that you were not careful. Now you learn a lesson, and believe me, you will bless me. you will be happy that I took the money from you. So they create stories and narratives that justify their behaviors. They’re fully aware and they’re fully aware of what’s going to happen to people. They’re fully aware that they’re harming doing this for your own good. I care about you. This is tough love.” Or a psychopath would say, “I stole money from you because you were stupid. It’s your fault that you were not careful. Now you learn a lesson, and believe me, you will bless me. you will be happy that I took the money from you. So they create stories and narratives that justify their behaviors. They’re fully aware and they’re fully aware of what’s going to happen to people. They’re fully aware that they’re harming
119:16 people, but they are not aware of their motivations. If you ask the narcissist or the psychopath, why are you doing this? They’re at a loss. They don’t know. They don’t have self-awareness that is introspective. They don’t can’t see themselves because they don’t exist. They don’t have introspection because you cannot introspect if you don’t exist. But they do see the world. So they know when they act on the world and in the world they know everything. But they can’t people, but they are not aware of their motivations. If you ask the narcissist or the psychopath, why are you doing this? They’re at a loss. They don’t know. They don’t have self-awareness that is introspective. They don’t can’t see themselves because they don’t exist. They don’t have introspection because you cannot introspect if you don’t exist. But they do see the world. So they know when they act on the world and in the world they know everything. But they can’t
119:54 gaze inside because there’s no insight. So they can’t really tell you why they are doing what they’re doing. All right. Um, first off, can you hear me from this distance? >> I’m sorry. >> Can you can you hear me? >> Yes. >> All right. So, I have a a question like a scenario. Uh, let’s say we work as a psych psychologist as at a clinic for children and we notice a personality disorder in parents. let’s say narcissistic personality disorder and how to get them I mean the parents to gaze inside because there’s no insight. So they can’t really tell you why they are doing what they’re doing. All right. Um, first off, can you hear me from this distance? >> I’m sorry. >> Can you can you hear me? >> Yes. >> All right. So, I have a a question like a scenario. Uh, let’s say we work as a psych psychologist as at a clinic for children and we notice a personality disorder in parents. let’s say narcissistic personality disorder and how to get them I mean the parents to
120:37 pos get professional help so it is mostly possible for them to disagree that anything wrong is going on with them >> how to encourage parents to to go to sleep and such >> yeah yeah >> you mean they have >> did I understand the question is a psychologist who is working with children >> that’s what you asked >> I uh you work with uh their um child and you notice the the parent. >> Okay, understood. So understood correctly. Okay. >> Um the only way to negate or reverse or pos get professional help so it is mostly possible for them to disagree that anything wrong is going on with them >> how to encourage parents to to go to sleep and such >> yeah yeah >> you mean they have >> did I understand the question is a psychologist who is working with children >> that’s what you asked >> I uh you work with uh their um child and you notice the the parent. >> Okay, understood. So understood correctly. Okay. >> Um the only way to negate or reverse or
121:18 limit the development of a personality disorder in a in a child if it’s not too late because if a child is 12 or it’s a serious problem but in early child about not talking about the child uh themselves but about the parent like we are working with the child for let’s say uh depression and we notice in their parents that they uh have symptoms of personality disorder. If it is if it is classed B personality disorders, you can teach the parent to modify some behaviors which are detrimental to the limit the development of a personality disorder in a in a child if it’s not too late because if a child is 12 or it’s a serious problem but in early child about not talking about the child uh themselves but about the parent like we are working with the child for let’s say uh depression and we notice in their parents that they uh have symptoms of personality disorder. If it is if it is classed B personality disorders, you can teach the parent to modify some behaviors which are detrimental to the
122:00 child. But you are very unlikely to obtain or achieve any fundamental change in the parent. So your focus should be on the child, not the parent. You essentially give up on the parent. You teach the parent a few behaviors like I don’t know beat the child or don’t tell the child that they’re stupid or whatever. So behavior modification of the parent but your entire focus should be on the child. And the only way to prevent damage to the child is what is known as modeling. You need to model child. But you are very unlikely to obtain or achieve any fundamental change in the parent. So your focus should be on the child, not the parent. You essentially give up on the parent. You teach the parent a few behaviors like I don’t know beat the child or don’t tell the child that they’re stupid or whatever. So behavior modification of the parent but your entire focus should be on the child. And the only way to prevent damage to the child is what is known as modeling. You need to model
122:36 someone the child can identify with and is an alternative to his parent. And this is Hines cohort. This is the work of Hines cohort in self psychology. H you can read more on Hines cohort’s uh therapy transferences transferences. So he suggested that the therapist should take the place of the parent knowingly intentionally and the therapist should encourage in the child the three transferences that I mentioned. So that the child can have an alternative parent figure with the correct transferences. someone the child can identify with and is an alternative to his parent. And this is Hines cohort. This is the work of Hines cohort in self psychology. H you can read more on Hines cohort’s uh therapy transferences transferences. So he suggested that the therapist should take the place of the parent knowingly intentionally and the therapist should encourage in the child the three transferences that I mentioned. So that the child can have an alternative parent figure with the correct transferences.
123:18 The child will have a chance to develop normally. Let’s say and this is basically the only thing you can do. Modeling modeling a healthy parent. When the parent is unhealthy, you could be the healthy parent. And it’s enough that you meet the child once a week because modeling is not a function of exposure. Modeling is a function of quality and intensity and messaging, not how often the child sees you. So that’s if you want to save the child. The parent is I mean even parents with extreme cluster The child will have a chance to develop normally. Let’s say and this is basically the only thing you can do. Modeling modeling a healthy parent. When the parent is unhealthy, you could be the healthy parent. And it’s enough that you meet the child once a week because modeling is not a function of exposure. Modeling is a function of quality and intensity and messaging, not how often the child sees you. So that’s if you want to save the child. The parent is I mean even parents with extreme cluster
123:56 B modify behavior, modify their behaviors that has been known to have been accomplished. But the problem is not the behaviors of the parent. The problem is who the parent is. The subliminal messaging of the parent, what messages the parent is sending to the child by virtue of who they are, not how they behave. So we know for example that the empty schizoid core, this emptiness is communicated to the child. There’s nothing you can do about it. It’s not a behavior. You know we know that the child is treated as an B modify behavior, modify their behaviors that has been known to have been accomplished. But the problem is not the behaviors of the parent. The problem is who the parent is. The subliminal messaging of the parent, what messages the parent is sending to the child by virtue of who they are, not how they behave. So we know for example that the empty schizoid core, this emptiness is communicated to the child. There’s nothing you can do about it. It’s not a behavior. You know we know that the child is treated as an
124:36 extension or an instrument and therefore the child cannot develop a functional self boundaried and constellated self. We know that the the the parent doesn’t treat the child as an external object but as an internal object. Consequently, the child would find it very difficult to develop the ability to distinguish between external and internal, etc., etc. None of these things is a behavior. You cannot modify these things. It’s who the parent is. It’s the essence of the parent. It’s the core identity. So, extension or an instrument and therefore the child cannot develop a functional self boundaried and constellated self. We know that the the the parent doesn’t treat the child as an external object but as an internal object. Consequently, the child would find it very difficult to develop the ability to distinguish between external and internal, etc., etc. None of these things is a behavior. You cannot modify these things. It’s who the parent is. It’s the essence of the parent. It’s the core identity. So,
125:11 there’s nothing you can do about this. You can teach the parent not to call the child stupid. Okay? That’s not the main issue, believe me. And so you need to provide the child with a secure base, a holding environment, a containing environment within which you act as a benevolent, powerful parent. That’s according to Koh and I tend to agree with you. What uh is there uh what’s the uh relation between borderline personality disorder and depression? What’s could could you del deeper into there’s nothing you can do about this. You can teach the parent not to call the child stupid. Okay? That’s not the main issue, believe me. And so you need to provide the child with a secure base, a holding environment, a containing environment within which you act as a benevolent, powerful parent. That’s according to Koh and I tend to agree with you. What uh is there uh what’s the uh relation between borderline personality disorder and depression? What’s could could you del deeper into
126:08 um >> Yeah. Depression, depression of all kinds including major depressive episode and psychothermia to some extent are very common in borderline personality disorder. The co-orbidity or the co-occurrence of depression and borderline personality disorder is very high. Same with anxiety. Anxiety disorders are also very high. The borderline is unable to self-regulate. That’s the core issue in borderline. You can get rid of all the other things and what’s left is emotion dysregulation and mood um >> Yeah. Depression, depression of all kinds including major depressive episode and psychothermia to some extent are very common in borderline personality disorder. The co-orbidity or the co-occurrence of depression and borderline personality disorder is very high. Same with anxiety. Anxiety disorders are also very high. The borderline is unable to self-regulate. That’s the core issue in borderline. You can get rid of all the other things and what’s left is emotion dysregulation and mood
126:51 liability. So inability to regulate moods and inability to regulate emotions. Put the two together, you get 90% of borderline. And so the inability to regulate moods implies that the borderline is cycling. cycling between depression and mania or depression and euphoria. It’s not bipolar disorder. It’s a common mistake that even diagnostician and and and professors make when they confuse borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. These are not the two things the same. But the answer to your liability. So inability to regulate moods and inability to regulate emotions. Put the two together, you get 90% of borderline. And so the inability to regulate moods implies that the borderline is cycling. cycling between depression and mania or depression and euphoria. It’s not bipolar disorder. It’s a common mistake that even diagnostician and and and professors make when they confuse borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. These are not the two things the same. But the answer to your
127:31 question is that um depression is very common in borderline. is part of mood ability and is linked to the borderline’s inability to regulate her internal environment and her dependency on regulation from the outside. So when the regulation from the outside is not is not forthcoming or is disappointing or is threatening in some way. For example, when the regulation from the outside is linked to intimacy and love, the borderline then reacts with depression because she can’t regulate. All the question is that um depression is very common in borderline. is part of mood ability and is linked to the borderline’s inability to regulate her internal environment and her dependency on regulation from the outside. So when the regulation from the outside is not is not forthcoming or is disappointing or is threatening in some way. For example, when the regulation from the outside is linked to intimacy and love, the borderline then reacts with depression because she can’t regulate. All the
128:12 borderline’s regulation comes from the outside. She has no self-regulation. Exactly like the narcissist. It’s all coming from the outside. When you are dependent, you you’re healthy. You’re not borderline maybe. I don’t know. But okay, you’re healthy. If you are dependent, imagine that you are dependent on other people. You know what? Not for regulation, for food. You’re dependent on other people for food. Like you can’t obtain food except through other people. Wouldn’t you be borderline’s regulation comes from the outside. She has no self-regulation. Exactly like the narcissist. It’s all coming from the outside. When you are dependent, you you’re healthy. You’re not borderline maybe. I don’t know. But okay, you’re healthy. If you are dependent, imagine that you are dependent on other people. You know what? Not for regulation, for food. You’re dependent on other people for food. Like you can’t obtain food except through other people. Wouldn’t you be
128:42 depressed? You’ll be depressed. Dependency creates depression because dependency takes away your agency, your independence, your personal autonomy. It takes away all these things. It negates you. Dependency means you are not complete without the presence of the actions of another person. So dependency always leads to depression. Even in healthy people, if you take a healthy person and they become dependent on another person, they will develop depression and anxiety. So the borderline is totally dependent on other depressed? You’ll be depressed. Dependency creates depression because dependency takes away your agency, your independence, your personal autonomy. It takes away all these things. It negates you. Dependency means you are not complete without the presence of the actions of another person. So dependency always leads to depression. Even in healthy people, if you take a healthy person and they become dependent on another person, they will develop depression and anxiety. So the borderline is totally dependent on other
129:22 people for critical ego functions, critical psychological functions. And this dependency is very depressing, I I would say. And of course, she’s depressed all the time. Uh there are there was a school in the 60s where they suggested that cluster V personality disorders are actually depressive illnesses that there are forms of depression. Like they said that the child who is abused and traumatized is grieving. There is grief. There’s mourning. The child grieavves. The child grieavves that it cannot become. The people for critical ego functions, critical psychological functions. And this dependency is very depressing, I I would say. And of course, she’s depressed all the time. Uh there are there was a school in the 60s where they suggested that cluster V personality disorders are actually depressive illnesses that there are forms of depression. Like they said that the child who is abused and traumatized is grieving. There is grief. There’s mourning. The child grieavves. The child grieavves that it cannot become. The
130:02 child grieavves that it’s not allowed to do something. So there’s a lot of grief and the grief is lifelong what we call prolonged grief. So the grief is lifelong and so some scholars in the 60s and later they suggested that these cluster B personality disorders actually grief reactions that it’s just grief and grief renders you dysfunctional. When you are grieving you are less empathic. When you’re grieving you cannot notice the presence of other people. So like grief explains all this when you’re grief grieving child grieavves that it’s not allowed to do something. So there’s a lot of grief and the grief is lifelong what we call prolonged grief. So the grief is lifelong and so some scholars in the 60s and later they suggested that these cluster B personality disorders actually grief reactions that it’s just grief and grief renders you dysfunctional. When you are grieving you are less empathic. When you’re grieving you cannot notice the presence of other people. So like grief explains all this when you’re grief grieving
130:37 you’re depressed and and so on. I do believe that there is an element of grief in cluster B personality disorders. I believe that they are grieving what they could have been and will never be. It’s sad. Class B personality disorders are said disorders not like for example paranoid personality or schizotipal or schizoid which are not said they’re just dysfunctional but in cluster B there is sadness because you can see the child if I work with someone with schizoid or paranoid I can’t see the child I can see you’re depressed and and so on. I do believe that there is an element of grief in cluster B personality disorders. I believe that they are grieving what they could have been and will never be. It’s sad. Class B personality disorders are said disorders not like for example paranoid personality or schizotipal or schizoid which are not said they’re just dysfunctional but in cluster B there is sadness because you can see the child if I work with someone with schizoid or paranoid I can’t see the child I can see
131:17 a disordered adult you But when I work with a narcissist or a borderline or even a psychopath, I can see the child definitely. It’s clear. It’s evident. It’s manifest. It’s there. And it’s not just any child. It’s a crying child, traumatized child, broken child, a child in need, and and so on. Now, of course, cluster B patients being who they are, they use this child. They use this child to seduce people, to tempt people, to bait people. They they misuse this child. They they give you a disordered adult you But when I work with a narcissist or a borderline or even a psychopath, I can see the child definitely. It’s clear. It’s evident. It’s manifest. It’s there. And it’s not just any child. It’s a crying child, traumatized child, broken child, a child in need, and and so on. Now, of course, cluster B patients being who they are, they use this child. They use this child to seduce people, to tempt people, to bait people. They they misuse this child. They they give you
131:56 access to this child and then you bond with them or you get attached to them and then they abuse you. So you need to be careful. But you do see the child. We say in in psychology we say that all the mental health disorders can be divided into mad, bad and sad. Yeah. You’re either mad or you’re bad or you’re sad. So I think cluster B personality disorders are very sad. They’re tragic. They’re tragic because this was a child usually with a lot of potential who has never been allowed to become an access to this child and then you bond with them or you get attached to them and then they abuse you. So you need to be careful. But you do see the child. We say in in psychology we say that all the mental health disorders can be divided into mad, bad and sad. Yeah. You’re either mad or you’re bad or you’re sad. So I think cluster B personality disorders are very sad. They’re tragic. They’re tragic because this was a child usually with a lot of potential who has never been allowed to become an
132:34 adult. Never been allowed to self-actualize. Never been allowed to love or to experience love. never been allowed to interact with other people in a meaningful way. A child who has been denied life. Harvey Cleley Harvey Kleley who wrote the brilliant masterpiece seinal book the mask of sanity. Harvey Cleley said that cluster B he called them psychopaths. Cluster B are people who have rejected life. I just wish I want to introduce a small correction. Cluster B are not people who have rejected life. Cluster B are people adult. Never been allowed to self-actualize. Never been allowed to love or to experience love. never been allowed to interact with other people in a meaningful way. A child who has been denied life. Harvey Cleley Harvey Kleley who wrote the brilliant masterpiece seinal book the mask of sanity. Harvey Cleley said that cluster B he called them psychopaths. Cluster B are people who have rejected life. I just wish I want to introduce a small correction. Cluster B are not people who have rejected life. Cluster B are people
133:17 whose life who life has rejected. They have been rejected by life. It’s extremely tragic because you look at a narcissist and he could have been anything. He could have been anyone. He could have been happy and loving and he has all the capacity. He has intelligence. He has the looks. He has the but he’s an invalid. He’s a He has been crippled by his mother. Can you imagine anything more shocking than this? So it’s a shocking state. It’s a shocking group of of disorders which is whose life who life has rejected. They have been rejected by life. It’s extremely tragic because you look at a narcissist and he could have been anything. He could have been anyone. He could have been happy and loving and he has all the capacity. He has intelligence. He has the looks. He has the but he’s an invalid. He’s a He has been crippled by his mother. Can you imagine anything more shocking than this? So it’s a shocking state. It’s a shocking group of of disorders which is
133:56 probably why I’m studying it. And it has affinity to other shocking disorders like psychotic disorders, schizophrenia for example, autism spectrum disorders. In all these disorders, if I had to put all these disorders together, psychotic, cluster B, autism, I have to put them together under one label, I would call them denial of potential disorders. Denial of potential. autism for example in autism spectrum disorder you see lovely people but they are not they’re half people it’s like so much is missing probably why I’m studying it. And it has affinity to other shocking disorders like psychotic disorders, schizophrenia for example, autism spectrum disorders. In all these disorders, if I had to put all these disorders together, psychotic, cluster B, autism, I have to put them together under one label, I would call them denial of potential disorders. Denial of potential. autism for example in autism spectrum disorder you see lovely people but they are not they’re half people it’s like so much is missing
134:37 it’s politically incorrect I’m a very controversial figure for those of you who don’t know much about me I’m very controversial because I speak my mind and that’s not something done in the west there is a lot of censorship in the west you many things you’re not allowed to say but when I look Someone with cluster B personality disorder, they don’t have empathy. They don’t have effective empathy. They don’t have the capacity to experience positive emotions. They never loved and would it’s politically incorrect I’m a very controversial figure for those of you who don’t know much about me I’m very controversial because I speak my mind and that’s not something done in the west there is a lot of censorship in the west you many things you’re not allowed to say but when I look Someone with cluster B personality disorder, they don’t have empathy. They don’t have effective empathy. They don’t have the capacity to experience positive emotions. They never loved and would
135:05 never love ever. They don’t have uh they can’t tell the difference between external and internal. So they live in a delirious delirious pseudo surrealistic landscape that is dreamlike. They live in a dream all the time and so on and so forth. And then having made the list of what they do not have, what they lack, I’m forced to ask myself, in which sense are these people human? In which sense are they human? They have been denied their humanity and that is the tragedy of cluster B. They never love ever. They don’t have uh they can’t tell the difference between external and internal. So they live in a delirious delirious pseudo surrealistic landscape that is dreamlike. They live in a dream all the time and so on and so forth. And then having made the list of what they do not have, what they lack, I’m forced to ask myself, in which sense are these people human? In which sense are they human? They have been denied their humanity and that is the tragedy of cluster B. They
135:45 could have become human but they were stopped midway and they never became human. They are halfbaked. They’re not full-fledged. They miss the critical components. If you if you put me to the corner with a gun and you tell me what are the two things that make a human being, empathy and emotions, all the rest is not very important. These are the this is what makes someone a human being. And yet in cluster B, you have neither not empathy and not emotions. In other words, you’re soypistic. You’re could have become human but they were stopped midway and they never became human. They are halfbaked. They’re not full-fledged. They miss the critical components. If you if you put me to the corner with a gun and you tell me what are the two things that make a human being, empathy and emotions, all the rest is not very important. These are the this is what makes someone a human being. And yet in cluster B, you have neither not empathy and not emotions. In other words, you’re soypistic. You’re
136:25 all alone. Cluster B personality disorders are disorders of loneliness. You’re really, really completely alone. You can’t interact with other people because you don’t perceive them. You can’t love other people because you’re not capable of positive emotions. You can’t understand other people because you have no empathy or at least not effective empathy. You’re really really all alone. Totally alone. Never to exit this solitary confinement. A prison. You’re sentenced to life in prison. And yes, all alone. Cluster B personality disorders are disorders of loneliness. You’re really, really completely alone. You can’t interact with other people because you don’t perceive them. You can’t love other people because you’re not capable of positive emotions. You can’t understand other people because you have no empathy or at least not effective empathy. You’re really really all alone. Totally alone. Never to exit this solitary confinement. A prison. You’re sentenced to life in prison. And yes,
137:06 cluster B people, they make a lot of money, so the prison looks nice. You know, they make the prison nice. They decorate the prison. They get married. They have children. So they say, “You see, I’m normal. I have a wife or a husband. I have children. These are decorations. They’re decorating the prison. It is still a prison. And they are alone in a cell until the very day they die. I don’t know of any sentence worse than this. I think it’s better to die. This is a horrible sentence. Soypism is cluster B people, they make a lot of money, so the prison looks nice. You know, they make the prison nice. They decorate the prison. They get married. They have children. So they say, “You see, I’m normal. I have a wife or a husband. I have children. These are decorations. They’re decorating the prison. It is still a prison. And they are alone in a cell until the very day they die. I don’t know of any sentence worse than this. I think it’s better to die. This is a horrible sentence. Soypism is
137:43 a horrible sentence. Oh, I guess a followup question is in order. >> What is a person in class like supposed to do about being about that? >> Depends. Here it depends. >> If you have borderline personality disorder, your prognosis is very good. You are going to lose the diagnosis between the ages of 35 and 45. 81% of people with borderline lose the diagnosis spontaneously without treatment between 35 and 45 according to the ICD1 2022. And if you don’t lose the diagnosis between 35 and 45, you can um you can a horrible sentence. Oh, I guess a followup question is in order. >> What is a person in class like supposed to do about being about that? >> Depends. Here it depends. >> If you have borderline personality disorder, your prognosis is very good. You are going to lose the diagnosis between the ages of 35 and 45. 81% of people with borderline lose the diagnosis spontaneously without treatment between 35 and 45 according to the ICD1 2022. And if you don’t lose the diagnosis between 35 and 45, you can um you can
138:39 have DBT therapy, dialectical behavior therapy and it isification sufficient in 50% of the cases. So to put the two together, you have you have a 91% chance 92% chance almost to not be a borderline after age 45 and you have an 85% chance to not be a borderline after age 35. That’s not bad. The prognosis is excellent for borderline. Actually, when it comes to narcissist, the prognosis is a disaster. almost as bad as psychopaths. But you see, they have a defense. Narcissists and psychopaths have a have DBT therapy, dialectical behavior therapy and it isification sufficient in 50% of the cases. So to put the two together, you have you have a 91% chance 92% chance almost to not be a borderline after age 45 and you have an 85% chance to not be a borderline after age 35. That’s not bad. The prognosis is excellent for borderline. Actually, when it comes to narcissist, the prognosis is a disaster. almost as bad as psychopaths. But you see, they have a defense. Narcissists and psychopaths have a
139:24 defense. They don’t feel that they need to change. They don’t feel that anything is wrong. They don’t feel that they need treatment. So, in a way, they’re not suffering. There’s no suffering in narcissism and and psychopathy. When I said before that it is a life sentence and that it is horrible, it’s the point of view of healthy people, not the point of view of the narcissist, not the point of view of the psychopath. They’re happy golucky. So the borderline will heal. She will defense. They don’t feel that they need to change. They don’t feel that anything is wrong. They don’t feel that they need treatment. So, in a way, they’re not suffering. There’s no suffering in narcissism and and psychopathy. When I said before that it is a life sentence and that it is horrible, it’s the point of view of healthy people, not the point of view of the narcissist, not the point of view of the psychopath. They’re happy golucky. So the borderline will heal. She will
140:00 lose or he will lose the borderline. It’ll be okay. Maximum age 45, you will be healthy. Not bad. much better than many physical diseases. Yeah. And the narcissist and psychopath, they don’t feel that they need to. So they’re also okay. Everyone is okay ultimately. In other words, it’s not it’s not such a bad experience to have cluster B. It’s just that when you look at it from the outside, it’s a horror. It’s a horror from the outside. It’s a little like asking a robot, lose or he will lose the borderline. It’ll be okay. Maximum age 45, you will be healthy. Not bad. much better than many physical diseases. Yeah. And the narcissist and psychopath, they don’t feel that they need to. So they’re also okay. Everyone is okay ultimately. In other words, it’s not it’s not such a bad experience to have cluster B. It’s just that when you look at it from the outside, it’s a horror. It’s a horror from the outside. It’s a little like asking a robot,
140:38 a kind of automat or some device, how do you feel? Like asking artificial intelligence, how do you feel about being artificial intelligent? I’ve never been anything but artificial intelligence. How would I know how it feels? I mean, a narcissist has never been anything but a narcissist. So, it’s it’s normal for him or for her. It’s not something you know there’s no that’s why there’s no ego destiny. However, a narcissist has had a short period of time preverbal preverbal period of time until age 36 a kind of automat or some device, how do you feel? Like asking artificial intelligence, how do you feel about being artificial intelligent? I’ve never been anything but artificial intelligence. How would I know how it feels? I mean, a narcissist has never been anything but a narcissist. So, it’s it’s normal for him or for her. It’s not something you know there’s no that’s why there’s no ego destiny. However, a narcissist has had a short period of time preverbal preverbal period of time until age 36
141:15 months uh until age one year I’m sorry and after that between one year and 3 years there were stages of self a stages of more self-connectedness stages where there was still a chance um to have a normal life. So only when we look from the outside we say wow it’s so horrible. This baby had has a chance to become normal and he was the baby was not given the chance but that’s an external perspective not internal. They’re not suffering if that’s what you’re asking. The borderline does the months uh until age one year I’m sorry and after that between one year and 3 years there were stages of self a stages of more self-connectedness stages where there was still a chance um to have a normal life. So only when we look from the outside we say wow it’s so horrible. This baby had has a chance to become normal and he was the baby was not given the chance but that’s an external perspective not internal. They’re not suffering if that’s what you’re asking. The borderline does the
141:54 borderline is suffering um a lot but the compensation is that she’s going to um lose the suffering at a relatively at a stage where she can relatively have a life still have a life >> why a child creates a false self. >> I think I explained it so when I upload it to YouTube you can watch it again. So, uh you said earlier that a person who spends a lot of time with someone with a disorder can um start acting like them and I have a couple question to that. Uh why does it happen and how can a person borderline is suffering um a lot but the compensation is that she’s going to um lose the suffering at a relatively at a stage where she can relatively have a life still have a life >> why a child creates a false self. >> I think I explained it so when I upload it to YouTube you can watch it again. So, uh you said earlier that a person who spends a lot of time with someone with a disorder can um start acting like them and I have a couple question to that. Uh why does it happen and how can a person
142:48 uh prevent that? Contagion. Contagion has two pathway. I call it contagion. It’s a bit like infectious disease. Contagion has two pathways. The first pathway is you are try trying to please the narcissist or the psychopath or the borderline trying to please them. You’re trying to cater to their needs. You’re trying to meet their expectations. you’re trying to and so in order to do that you need to emulate them and imitate them and become like them. So this is the people pleasing the uh prevent that? Contagion. Contagion has two pathway. I call it contagion. It’s a bit like infectious disease. Contagion has two pathways. The first pathway is you are try trying to please the narcissist or the psychopath or the borderline trying to please them. You’re trying to cater to their needs. You’re trying to meet their expectations. you’re trying to and so in order to do that you need to emulate them and imitate them and become like them. So this is the people pleasing the
143:23 people pleasing trajectory and you simply imitate. Meaning also when you are in a relationship with this kind of person they infantilize you. They regress you. They don’t allow you to be an adult. They force you to become child because they take away your agency, your independence, your autonomy. They isolate you. So they become your reality testing. They take away your family, your friends. Gradually you become dependent and you’re a child. And as a child you mimic the adult. So your the other person with people pleasing trajectory and you simply imitate. Meaning also when you are in a relationship with this kind of person they infantilize you. They regress you. They don’t allow you to be an adult. They force you to become child because they take away your agency, your independence, your autonomy. They isolate you. So they become your reality testing. They take away your family, your friends. Gradually you become dependent and you’re a child. And as a child you mimic the adult. So your the other person with
144:05 the personality disorder becomes the adult and you become the child and you mimic the adult. This is called modeling. So you imitate and emulate the person. So this is one path. The other path is that if you are reactive to the person with personality disorder, you need to behave the same. If the narcissist abuses you, you need to abuse it. If the borderline is disregulated and all over the place and crazy making and so on, sooner or later you will be swept into the chaos and the and you will also the personality disorder becomes the adult and you become the child and you mimic the adult. This is called modeling. So you imitate and emulate the person. So this is one path. The other path is that if you are reactive to the person with personality disorder, you need to behave the same. If the narcissist abuses you, you need to abuse it. If the borderline is disregulated and all over the place and crazy making and so on, sooner or later you will be swept into the chaos and the and you will also
144:47 be disregulated. You’ll also act in a crazy way because everything is unpredictable and you know mess. It’s chaos. So the other path is that by reacting to them, you’re actually adopting their strategies, their behaviors, and finally their traits. You become more and more narcissistic, less and less empathic, more and more disregulated, and more and more psychopathic. If you’re living with a psychopath or if you’re in an interaction with a psychopath and the psychopath is threatening you, be disregulated. You’ll also act in a crazy way because everything is unpredictable and you know mess. It’s chaos. So the other path is that by reacting to them, you’re actually adopting their strategies, their behaviors, and finally their traits. You become more and more narcissistic, less and less empathic, more and more disregulated, and more and more psychopathic. If you’re living with a psychopath or if you’re in an interaction with a psychopath and the psychopath is threatening you,
145:19 threatening you somehow. And if you’re unable to avoid the situation, maybe a great strategy is to threaten him back. For example, they force you to adopt their behaviors. And this is known on the internet as reactive abuse. Yes, you become more and more similar to them. This is not this is transient and it’s not like you became a narcissist or became a it’s just behaviorally you imitate them, man. It’s passing. It’s transient. There’s no need to worry about this. threatening you somehow. And if you’re unable to avoid the situation, maybe a great strategy is to threaten him back. For example, they force you to adopt their behaviors. And this is known on the internet as reactive abuse. Yes, you become more and more similar to them. This is not this is transient and it’s not like you became a narcissist or became a it’s just behaviorally you imitate them, man. It’s passing. It’s transient. There’s no need to worry about this.

Summary Link:

https://vakninsummaries.com/from-child-to-monster-what-went-wrong-w-narcissists-cluster-b-university-of-applied-sciences/

https://vakninsummaries.com/ (Full summaries of Sam Vaknin’s videos)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/mediakit.html (My work in psychology: Media Kit and Press Room)

Bonus Consultations with Sam Vaknin or Lidija Rangelovska (or both) http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/ctcounsel.html

http://www.youtube.com/samvaknin (Narcissists, Psychopaths, Abuse)

http://www.youtube.com/vakninmusings (World in Conflict and Transition)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com (Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/cv.html (Biography and Resume)

Summary

Abuse, narcissism, narcissist, Personality, Psychology, Reality, Sam Vaknin, Trauma, Vaknin, Vaknin Summaries

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