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1. 00:00 that's for Okay one minute one minute one minute allow me to record okay okay yeah
2. 00:09 okay i'm recording great thank you so much for the opportunity uh for having me for the
3. 00:16 interview yeah um I have been following your work for a while now and uh it has truly been an inspiration uh to me and all that I'm doing so I just want to thank you for for that
4. 00:28 thank you um I have so many questions doctor um first of all
5. 00:35 um when talking about the theology of pathological narcissism you talk about
6. 00:41 um Andre Green's concept the dead mother i was wondering if you could elaborate a
7. 00:48 little bit on on this and why uh is narcissism linked to the mother or the
8. 00:56 mother function mhm it is the mother that is the most
9. 01:02 crucial in the first 36 months of life the father has a minimal role after 36
10. 01:09 months of life the father enters the picture and the father becomes the main
11. 01:15 agent of socialization so the father teaches the child skills social scripts sexual
12. 01:22 scripts um and the father becomes a role model and and so on but in the initial 36
13. 01:30 months of life it is the mother that by far is the most crucial especially in
14. 01:37 the first 18 months because the mother is the only person the child inter
15. 01:43 interacts with on a regular basis still even in western industrialized society that is the fact and because the child defines
16. 01:54 itself in contradistinction to the mother the child uses the mother as a
17. 02:00 way to discover its own boundaries and to form a self to create or constellate
18. 02:07 or integrate a sense of self so the mother is there in a multiplicity of of
19. 02:14 critical functions initially the child identifies mother with the world the child doesn't see any difference between
20. 02:21 itself and mother and the world so there is what used to be called the symbiotic phase
21. 02:28 it is through mother that the child gains knowledge of of the world and it is through the mother's gaze that the child realizes its own separateness the which in itself is a major trauma and then the child separates from
22. 02:45 the mother initially and the self begins to form if the mother fails in at any stage of this hypers sensitive process then we have a disruption in the formation of the self we have severe attachment
23. 03:02 problems we have emotional dysregulation we have cognitive
24. 03:08 distortions they are all directly traceable to maternal failure or what Andre Green calls dead
25. 03:15 mother the dead mother is a mother who is emotionally absent either because she is
26. 03:23 depressed or because she's narcissistic it's a mother who is unable to cater to the basic needs of the
27. 03:30 child both physical and psychological so there is neglect and abandonment involved very often or the opposite it's a mother who is overprotective
28. 03:43 doineering a mother who idolizes the the child and um because she idolizes the child she places the child on a pedestal and she
29. 03:54 she actually does not allow the child to interact with reality or with peers
30. 04:01 in both cases we are talking about mothers who refuse to provide the
31. 04:07 appropriate feedback mothers who don't allow the child to create boundaries to and to separate from them in a way which is non-threatening
32. 04:18 mhm so there are many ways there are many types of failure and many types of abuse it is not true that abuse is only physical or verbal or sexual
33. 04:29 abuse can be as I mentioned overprotectiveness abuse can be when you
34. 04:35 parentify the child when you use the child as your own parent abuse can be when you
35. 04:41 instrumentalize the child when you use the child to realize your own frustrated fantasies and wishes and so on so there
36. 04:48 many many ways to abuse the child yeah a good mother or what Winnott Donard
37. 04:54 Wikott called the good enough mother is a mother who simultaneously provides a child with acceptance and warmth and compassion and
38. 05:05 a holding environment but at the same time encourages the part the child to walk
39. 05:11 away encourages the child to separate and to become an individual divided from
40. 05:17 her so mother pushes the child away not aggressively but by um rendering herself
41. 05:25 a secure base so that the child says to itself I can walk away from mommy and
42. 05:32 there will be no punishment for that there will be no consequences to it i can explore the world and it's a mother
43. 05:39 who supports the child's grandiosity to some extent because she encourages the child to venture forth venture out into
44. 05:48 the environment and to actually assume autonomy personal autonomy independence
45. 05:54 and agency even though the child is only one and a half years old or two years old there's a lot of grandiosity here
46. 06:01 but the mother encourages this it's not a surprise that the vast majority of mothers fail actually
47. 06:09 because it's a lot to ask for it's a balancing delicate balancing act so it's
48. 06:15 a lot to ask for and this raises the issue whether children should not be raised by
49. 06:21 biological mothers but should be raised by expert mothers we have an amazing
50. 06:27 experiment actually uh the kibbutim in Israel in the kibbutim in Israel kib
51. 06:33 kibuts a kibbutz is a a commune a communal um kind of settlement so in the
52. 06:40 kibbut same for a few decades children were not raised with biological parents
53. 06:47 children were raised centrally by expert mothers expert nannies psychologists and
54. 06:55 and so on so forth they saw their mothers the children saw their mothers even as infants even as
55. 07:02 newborn they saw the mothers once a week for a few hours and this is a major experiment
56. 07:09 because it involves well over 100,000 children and what we discovered is these
57. 07:16 children are the most functional and most mentally healthy in Israeli society
58. 07:23 they reach they are they constitute the elites they have much better academic attainments and accomplishments their marital life is much more stable they are much more mentally healthy and these are 100,000
59. 07:39 people who were not raised by biological mothers it's a a very thoughtprovoking
60. 07:48 that's amazing yeah yeah that's Yeah um I was also wondering about the the
61. 07:56 different cycles of abuse you you talk about um the cycle from narcissistic
62. 08:03 abuse but what are the key differences between the cycle of abuse uh from a
63. 08:10 narcissist and a for example a psychopath um and a borderline
64. 08:17 let's start with the easy one the easy one is a psychopath the psychopath wants something from you he wants your money he wants to have sex with you he wants you to introduce him to someone he wants you know he wants something from you
65. 08:29 psychopath is goal focused or goal oriented so once the goal is
66. 08:35 accomplished or attained the psychopath would walk away the abuse is utterly instrumental and therefore the abuse is
67. 08:43 limited in time limited in space and very laser focused
68. 08:49 the borderline's abuse is reactive the borderline is highly disregulated she
69. 08:56 has what we call emotional react reactivity and she's triggered
70. 09:02 frequently by external factors and internal factors
71. 09:08 so for example she could be triggered by abandonment and rejection but and shame and humiliation
72. 09:15 but she could also be triggered by her own anticipation of possible abandonment it
73. 09:22 hasn't happened yet but she would be triggered so there are so many thousands of factors that trigger border lines they are volatile they're explosive they are and so the
74. 09:35 borderline's abuse is a byproduct is a side effect of internal psy psychonamics
75. 09:41 internal psychological processes that the border borderline has no control over absolutely no control we now know
76. 09:49 that these are associated with brain abnormalities and with hereditary
77. 09:55 hereditary genetic components yes so this is the border lines abuse which could be horrible border lines abuse could be shattering and devastating and life transforming end up being broken
78. 10:06 and damaged by the borderline and it's all true but the
79. 10:12 borderline is out of control is is in many ways I think not
80. 10:20 responsible you can't say the same about the narcissist the narcissist abuse is
81. 10:26 also goal oriented and in this sense the narcissist is highly antisocial but the goal in the case of
82. 10:33 the narcissist is self aggrandisement or what we call in clinical psychology
83. 10:39 self-enhancement the goal in the case of the narcissist is to butress and augment a totally
84. 10:47 inflated fantastic counterfactual self-image or self-concept mhm a piece
85. 10:54 of fiction a myth a personal mythology personal religion actually where the narcissist is God a deity mhm and to accomplish this the narcissist
86. 11:05 creates what is known as a shared fantasy first described by Sander in 1989 he creates a shared fantasy and
87. 11:12 then he coerces you or entices you baits you into the shared fantasy and your
88. 11:19 role within the shed fantasy is like a the same like a prop in a theater production or like an actor in a in a s
89. 11:27 in a movie that's your role and you are supposed to provide the narcissist with
90. 11:33 what I call the four S's two of the four S's actually you're supposed to provide sex supply narcissistic or sadistics about 2 to 3% of all narcissists are
91. 11:44 sades so they enjoy your pain and discomfort you're supposed to provide safety in
92. 11:51 other words you're supposed to be there regardless of the egregiousness of the abuse you're supposed to stick around
93. 11:58 you're supposed to be there so that you're supposed to provide object constancy and um sex of course so two of
94. 12:06 the four you're supposed to provide that is your role and within the the shed fantasy the abuse in the case of narcissist is one major function and that is to test you to see how far the narcissist
95. 12:23 can go and how submissive and subjugated you are the narcissist exaggerates the
96. 12:31 abuse renders it egregious pushes the envelope all the time testing you
97. 12:38 um and if you stick around then you are a good mother you're a good maternal
98. 12:44 figure the narcissist can trust you your love is unconditional so the narcissist's goal
99. 12:50 orientation is about preserving the shared fantasy within which the narcissist is a godlike divine deity
100. 12:58 entity so it has nothing to do with with a psychopathy a psychopath may come up with a fantasy and he would use the fantasy to
101. 13:10 gaslight you he would use the fantasy to challenge your ability to gauge and evaluate reality what is known as reality testing it would impair your reality testing gaslighting is therefore
102. 13:23 a psy a psychopathic behavior not a narcissistic behavior
103. 13:29 and it is part and parcel of the psychopath's highly limited goal oriented laser focused abuse the
104. 13:36 narcissist abuse is much more dangerous because in order to become a figment
105. 13:43 within the shared fantasy in order to fit into the shared fantasy you need to suspend your own
106. 13:50 existence you need to disappear into the shared fantasy and reappear inside the shared
107. 13:57 fantasy as some kind of internal object the narcissist demands of you to negate
108. 14:03 yourself to vanish to lose your personal autonomy your independence your agency
109. 14:10 your your your critical thinking your friendships your family your job your
110. 14:17 everything you are required to vanish this is a simulation of the symbiotic
111. 14:24 phase between a baby and his mother in effect the whole thing is a recreation of early childhood conflicts but the price you pay within the narcissist shared fantasy is the
112. 14:36 ultimate price because you end up losing yourself you end up deprived of a core
113. 14:43 identity you end up doubting who you are whereas with a psychopath you lose some money or you have a one night stand or whatever and
114. 14:54 it pisses you off you're angry you're disgusted you're but that's the extent of the psychopath's abuse and with a borderline she can hurt you a lot she
115. 15:06 can damage you she can break you apart yeah it's all true but ultimately you do know you do realize that she's mentally ill and there is an element of capacity to forgive you are able to forgive the borderline and this ability to forgive
116. 15:22 restores you somehow you're not able to forgive the narcissist because we know
117. 15:28 that narcissists are in total control of their behaviors we know for example that when we change the narcissist environment the behaviors of the narcissist change change dramatically we
118. 15:40 know for example that narcissists in prison are not narcissistic at all
119. 15:46 they're not haughty or arrogant they're not contemptuous they're not aggressive they're nice they're kind so they're
120. 15:53 capable of not being narcissist in this narcissism was a kind of choice behavioral choice you know so it's
121. 16:00 difficult to forgive the narcissist very difficult for having you know hurt you
122. 16:06 to that extent for having negated you eliminated you in a way and this is these are the differences
123. 16:12 okay thank you there's often talk about um narcissistic abuse in terms of for example the narcissist and the victim
124. 16:24 that is supposed to be a normal healthy person right but I was
125. 16:30 wondering is it possible uh that a relationship forms between for example
126. 16:37 two narcissists or two two people with a different personality disorder and what
127. 16:43 would that look like it's pretty common actually narcissists and border lines are known to form to
128. 16:52 form diads and couples habitually um my late lamented good friend John
129. 16:58 Lkar has written the book about it in 1982 not long ago the borderline
130. 17:04 narcissistic couple so narcissists provide the borderline with a feeling of safety and
131. 17:12 stability the narcissist is a rock is a presence is supremely
132. 17:18 self-confident and he interfaces he he positions himself between the borderline
133. 17:25 and reality so he becomes the border lines reality test testing or reality interface on the one hand and the
134. 17:32 borderline provides adgulation admiration idealization and so on narcissist loves it it's exactly what he
135. 17:39 expects his his partner to to provide in the shared fantasy so they are perfect
136. 17:47 fit that's a common combination narcissists team team up especially
137. 17:53 romantically only when they are of different types so a an in um uh overt narcissist
138. 18:02 is likely could end up I'm sorry to could end up with a covert narcissist
139. 18:09 but two overt narcissists too grandio overt narcissists are unlikely to form a couple similarly a somatic narcissist would team up with a cerebral narcissist a
140. 18:21 cerebral narcissist is a narcissist who obtains supply narcissistic supply using his intellect whereas a somatic
141. 18:28 narcissist obtain supply using his body so they're a perfect match the cerebral is asexual or not asexual but hyposexual or nonsexual not exactly asexual but
142. 18:40 nonsexual whereas the somatic is hypersexual so it's a perfect fit and
143. 18:47 Somatic finds sex outside the the the couple and
144. 18:53 the cerebral has no problem with it because he's not into sex um on the other hand the somatic benefits from the cerebral's intellect and the cere cerebral feels safe and protected with
145. 19:04 the somatic there is a vicarious acquisition of narcissistic supply
146. 19:11 uh so a covert narcissist who is essentially a collapsed narcissist it's a narcissist who is unable to obtain
147. 19:18 supply a covert narcissist would obtain supply through the overt partner the
148. 19:24 overt partner is like a hunter overt partner goes out there and brings back the bacon brings back the narcissistic supply to the covert narcissist so yes
149. 19:35 actually and psychopaths form diets very frequently two psychopaths and they do
150. 19:42 this as a collaborate collaborative project so psychopaths team up even in a
151. 19:48 romantic couple they team up to do something together because psychopaths are goal oriented and that's why we have
152. 19:55 Bonnie and Clyde okay two psychopaths who are into something together robbery or murder or you name it so yes there's very frequent
153. 20:06 couple or diad among psychopaths um much less frequent are diets or
154. 20:13 couples that involve same type narcissist or same type psychopath or that's extremely rare even border lines for example don't form couples with each
155. 20:24 other that's extremely rare because a borderline would not provide another borderline with a sense of safety and
156. 20:30 stability and a secure place and and so it will not last long
157. 20:38 there's also the issue of comorbidity uh you often talk about um
158. 20:44 that a person can have a narcissistic personality personality disorder and
159. 20:50 also for example a borderline personality disorder so I can only imagine what that looks like h could you explain a little bit about that yeah it's a delicious
160. 21:01 combination i agree first of all let us be clear these diagnosis narcissistic personality disorder borderline etc they're limited to North
161. 21:12 America they are the outcomes of the diagnostic and statistical manual which
162. 21:18 is a book whose latest edition which is the text revision of
163. 21:25 the fifth edition 2022 this edition is actually copy paste of an earlier edition published in the year 2000 25 years of study and research in
164. 21:38 any discipline uh render the knowledge
165. 21:45 obsolete so 90% of the information in the DSM is wrong i'm not exaggerating it's information from the year 1999 or from
166. 21:56 the year 1998 it's dead on arrival it's not used so DSM is good for insurance
167. 22:04 and the pharmaceutical industry but it's not a good diagnostic manual
168. 22:10 anymore although in the fifth edition there was an attempt to
169. 22:16 rewrite some of the diagnostic criteria of a few of the personality disorders so
170. 22:22 this is known as the alternative models you have an alternative model for borderline alternative model for
171. 22:28 narcissism and so on but the problem is much deeper the problem is that today we
172. 22:34 believe it's more or less the mainstream that there is a single personality
173. 22:40 disorder only one and that each patient with this single personality disorder
174. 22:49 emphasizes accentuates manifests certain
175. 22:55 traits so if you combine these traits in one way that would be the equivalent of
176. 23:01 narcissistic personality disorder if you combine other traits another way you would have borderline what used to be
177. 23:07 borderline mhm the manual the diagnostic manual that is used by 80% of humanity
178. 23:14 is the international classification of diseases the ICD edition 11 dated
179. 23:22 2022 and in the ICD there is no narcissistic personality disorder
180. 23:29 there's no such diagnosis what the ICD does the ICD lists traits these are called trait
181. 23:37 domains the ICD has trait domains and what you do as a clinician or as a diagnostician or as a therapist when they when you're confronted with a patient or a client what you do you take
182. 23:50 these trait domains and you combine them to create the exact profile of the person you're
183. 23:58 facing it's a Lego Lego approach these are like Lego bricks and you take this
184. 24:04 so for example if I would come across a malignant narcissist a malignant narcissist is a narcissist who is also a
185. 24:11 psychopath who is also a sadist right someone you would like to marry probably so if you come across a
186. 24:19 malignant narcissist with a DSM you would diagnose him with narcissistic personality disorder combid
187. 24:26 comb with antisocial personality disorder and sadism although sadism is not in the DSM okay that's one approach the other approach if I'm using the ICD
188. 24:39 not the DSM I would identify the traits of this individual i would see that this
189. 24:45 individual is dissociative which is another name for antisocial i would see that this person is ananchancic as anastia in other words
190. 24:56 has obsess obsessive compulsive features i would see that this person is prone to conflict
191. 25:03 antagonistic i would take all these traits and I will combine them and I
192. 25:09 will create a painting a picture clinical picture unique to this individual this is a much more flexible much more realistic much more helpful
193. 25:21 approach because any clinician would tell you when you meet someone and they
194. 25:28 present to you with borderline two days later they become narcissist 4 days later they show a bit of psychopathy the next week they're
195. 25:39 borderline again and in between they're histrionic and they're trying to seduce you
196. 25:46 so it's clear that these distinctions are totally artificial and they create several massive problems one of which is coorbidity it's very common for a
197. 25:58 patient to be diagnosed with four seven 10 mental health
198. 26:04 issues uh that's a major problem and the even much bigger problem is what is known as polythetic problem polythetic problem is the following you have nine criteria to diagnose narcissistic
199. 26:16 personality disorder 1 2 3 4 5 Nine okay so here we come we are two patients
200. 26:23 patient number one satisfies meets criteria 1 2 3 4 5
201. 26:30 patient number two satisfies criteria 5 6 7 8 9 both of them are diagnosed with
202. 26:38 narcissistic personality disorder but the only thing they have in common is criterion
203. 26:44 five this is of course Mhm unsustainable it's bordering on idiotic i'm sorry to
204. 26:51 say the whole approach is stupid this categorical shopping list approach bullet list is completely not realistic counterfactual people are not lakes
205. 27:04 people are rivers people flow that's why we we say psycho dynamics we don't say
206. 27:11 psychoatics say psychonamic it's dynamic the whole thing is dynamic there are reactions to internal environment
207. 27:17 external environment and so on so when you psychorbidity narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorder this uses the categorical approach this assumes that
208. 27:28 there are clinical entities which are totally demarcated with differential diagnosis that's not the case that's not
209. 27:36 the case border people with what we used to call borderline personality disorder
210. 27:42 now we don't use this term in most of the world we don't use this term but okay people with this disorder they are
211. 27:49 for example a lot of grandiosity yes they are prone to fantasy exactly like the narcissist they are even in classical object relation schools it is believed
212. 28:02 that border lines have a false self exactly like the narcissist so the distinctions are very blurry very
213. 28:09 murky and and so this coorbidity is I believe an artifact not real is an
214. 28:17 artifact of our flawed problematic diagnostic system mhm i believe that you
215. 28:24 have people who are grandiose who are antisocial and who
216. 28:32 have severe problems regulating certain psychological processes and emotions cognitions moods and so on so forth and then it's only a
217. 28:44 question of measure we know for example that when narcissists are subjected to extreme
218. 28:51 humiliation stress and anxiety they become borderline we know that narcissists who
219. 28:57 are mortified narcissistic motification which is essentially public humiliation
220. 29:03 and shaming sudden unexpected we know that these narcissists start to
221. 29:09 emotionally disregulate and they become suicidal they become indistinguishable from borderline we know that the borderline when you push the borderline when you humiliate the borderline when
222. 29:21 you attack the borderline we know that the borderline becomes highly psychopathic actually there are studies
223. 29:28 scholars that claim that borderline personality disorder has a secondary psychopathic manifestation or phase and
224. 29:36 that this phase in this phase the borderline is reckless she's aggressive she's violent she's acting out she's a
225. 29:42 psychopath she's defined so it's it's all fluid and every
226. 29:50 patient who has a personality disorder has all these elements and many more for example narcissists and border lines are
227. 29:56 also paranoid they have paranoid ideation and they have skits phases where they
228. 30:02 avoid reality avoid the environment they're skits in in that at
229. 30:08 that moment so it's all wrong to demarcate it's everyone has everything everyone has the
230. 30:15 potential for it the only question is is your personality functional and
231. 30:21 relatively organized if not then you have everything you have narcissism you have
232. 30:28 psychopath you have borderline you have schizoid you're paranoid you have schizotipal you name it all is there
233. 30:39 um here the the topic of uh the malignant narcissist it's like uh people
234. 30:46 really like to talk about that i was wondering uh what would distinguish a
235. 30:53 malignant narcissist from a classical narcissist is it only um a matter of
236. 31:00 sadism and psychopathy is there more to be um explained there
237. 31:09 a malignant narcissist is someone who uses psychopathic traits and behaviors to obtain supply and to establish and preserve the shared fantasy in other words whereas a classical narcissist
238. 31:21 would use persuasion charm superficial charm would use uh love bombing would
239. 31:29 you would use language essentially classic narcissist would leverage language basically the malignant narcissist would would try to accomplish exactly the same malignant narcissist
240. 31:41 would want to establish a fantasy and within the fantasy to obtain supply and be considered grandio and inflated and
241. 31:47 so on but he would use the malignant toes would use coercion
242. 31:53 aggression projection of power threats he would threaten so he he uses
243. 31:59 psychopathic methods psychopathic strategies he has psychopathic traits and dynamics he's for example defiant he's reckless he is consummatious he hates authority he would use all this to
244. 32:12 obtain classical narcissistic goals additionally the malignant narcissist
245. 32:18 does enjoy inflicting pain on people there he derives he has he has what I
246. 32:25 called what phrase that I coined sadistic supply he derives narcissistic
247. 32:31 supply he's elated he's euphoric he's he feels omnipotent and so on he deres all
248. 32:37 this by torturing people by hurting these are the difference classic
249. 32:44 narcissist is not sadistic that's wrong that's nonsense online classic narcissists are not sadistic malignant narcissists are psychopaths are very commonly sadistic um and they're of course sadists who are not narcissists are not
250. 33:00 psychopaths so they're just sadis okay thank you for clarifying that uh
251. 33:06 there's so much information about this that sometimes it gets confusing but that's that's perfect um there's also
252. 33:14 one topic you talk about that really intrigues me that is uh the inverted narcissist because it almost seems contradictory to me you know because as I understand it it shows also codependent traits um so could you
253. 33:31 explain a little bit about the inverted narcissist yeah I think the best uh the best metaphor is the sun and the moon the moon the moon has a light but it's
254. 33:44 not the moon's light it's the light of the sun reflected off the moon so the
255. 33:51 moon reflects the sun's light the moon is the inverted narcissist the inverted narcissist teams up with an overt grandio narcissist the overt grandios narcissist
256. 34:03 shines the overt grandio narcissist obtains attention adulation recognition
257. 34:09 admiration and so on and the inverted narcissist basks in this borrowed
258. 34:16 vicarious glory she and she the fact that the overt narcissist obtains supply
259. 34:24 is her supply if he becomes famous and she is his wife for example then she's
260. 34:30 the wife of a famous person it reminds me that in Germany in the 19th century the wives of doctors the wives
261. 34:37 of medical doctors they were called fra doctor they were not doctors they were
262. 34:44 they could have been you know housewives or servants or whatever but because the husband was a doctor you had to call her fra miss the doctor so this is the
263. 34:56 inverted narcissist the inverted narcissist is a combination of codependent and um covert narcissist the
264. 35:03 inverted narcissist is a narcissist who is unable to obtain supply by herself i'm saying her because majority of invetes are women she's unable to obtain
265. 35:14 supply by herself because she's shy socially anxious or maybe has no skills or gifts she's simply plain not to say stupid she can't obtain
266. 35:25 supply whatever the reason may be maybe socially it's not acceptable because she's a woman in some societies she's
267. 35:32 not allowed to obtain supply it would be considered ostentatious and immoral or whatever the reason may be she cannot
268. 35:40 obtain supply but she is a narcissist so she is in a constant state of collapse
269. 35:46 collapse is when the narcissist cannot obtain supply on a regular basis so she's in state of collapse collapse is
270. 35:52 unbearable intolerable because it creates a borderline personality organization borderline like dynamics in
271. 35:59 the Narcissis suicidal ideiation depression emotional dysregulation it's unbearable so what this kind of person does she teams up with a successful
272. 36:10 narcissist a narcissist who's accomplished narcissist who can make it he succeeds and she's there with him
273. 36:19 enjoying his success and that gratifies her because she is dependent totally and
274. 36:27 crucially on her grandio overt narcissist because of this monopoly that
275. 36:35 her partner has on obtaining supply she becomes essentially addicted
276. 36:41 and that is the codependent element she becomes dependent on him for the supply
277. 36:47 it's like a relationship between junkie and pusher he provides her with the drugs she becomes dependent on him for
278. 36:53 the drugs and she cannot let him go she's terrified of abandonment she's needy she's clinging she manipulates him
279. 37:01 from the bottom manipulation for control from the bottom is when the codependent uses emotional blackmail emotional
280. 37:09 extortion to modify the behaviors of her target or her partner that's what the inverted narcissist does so another name for inverted narcissist is narcissist codependent that's another name for that so codependent who is a failed uh
281. 37:25 collapse narcissist and obtain supply through a narcissistic partner i think
282. 37:31 you're about to disappear again your connection is not very
283. 37:38 good okay so that's inverted narcissist is something I proposed in 1996 and today it is subsumed under the
284. 37:47 umbrella term covert narcissist covert narcissist is a pretty new development by the way for well over a hundred years
285. 37:54 we described only overt grandio narcissist in the late 80s there was a
286. 38:00 group of scholars Akar Cooper others and they came up with the idea of a vulnerable shy fragile narcissist and now it is
287. 38:12 considered to be one of two major types the overt grandio and the covert
288. 38:18 vulnerable narcissist again this categorization this this constant
289. 38:25 tendency to classify is good in physics i have a PhD in physics it's good in physics but it's
290. 38:32 not good in psychology because for example we know that all narcissists transition between types cerebral
291. 38:40 narcissist become somatic um overt narcissist become covert covert
292. 38:46 narcissist become overt there's no type constancy why this illusion that we have two types
293. 38:53 of narcissists because in clinical settings you are likely to come across
294. 38:59 collapsed narcissists only narcissists who fail narcissists who are unable to obtain
295. 39:05 supply they have a crisis they hit rock bottom they're you know they need you
296. 39:11 you're likely as a clinician as a therapist you're likely to meet mainly or only covert narcissists whereas
297. 39:18 academics uh they're likely to come across overt grandio narcissist so when an academic
298. 39:26 speaks to a clinician the clinician says narcissists are vulnerable they're fragile the narcissism is a compensation it's compensatory but the academic says "What are you talking about you're completely wrong narcissists are happy golucky they are self-confident they are
299. 39:42 egoonic it's all wrong." And they're arguing and they don't realize the covert narcissist that went to therapy used to be an overt narcissist who
300. 39:54 collapsed so there's a the collapse mediates the transition between types it's the same human being same individual they just don't realize it because they see it's it's as if you had
301. 40:05 two two scientists one of them is observing only larvae only larvae and the other one is
302. 40:13 observing only butterflies and then you they talk to each other and the first guy says you
303. 40:20 know all butterflies are round and they they they look like what are you talking about butterflies have wings it's the same entity the larvae the chrysalis and the butterfly they're the same it's one
304. 40:32 organism but different phases different stages of of the life cycle or
305. 40:38 development and unfortunately clinicians don't communicate well with academics and vice vice versa
306. 40:47 people often say that narcissists don't go to therapy is that a myth is that a
307. 40:53 lie depends again on on the phase yeah
308. 40:59 uh a narcissist in principle would not attend therapy because it's not conducive to maintaining the fantasy and the inflated grandio self concept it's admitting not only that something is wrong with you but it is admitting that you need help
309. 41:17 so if you need help you're not godlike it challenges the omnipotence not godlike so very unlikely however when
310. 41:25 the narcissist experiences motification humiliation and shaming which is abrupt
311. 41:31 unpredictable sudden when the narcissist hits rock bottom for example his wife
312. 41:38 threatens to divorce him or something in these situations narcissists are as likely to attend
313. 41:44 therapy as anyone else there is there are no studies that show that narcissists are more reluctant than
314. 41:51 psychotics or border lines or bipolars to attend therapy it's just the therapy
315. 41:58 is concentrated in a specific phase of life all narcissists without a single
316. 42:04 exception go through difficult periods life crisis collapse threats and so on
317. 42:10 and in these phases and only in these phases they are as likely to attend therapy as absolutely anyone else
318. 42:17 however it is true that there is a difference when it comes to narcissists whereas healthy people would
319. 42:26 go to therapy in order to feel better to function better to make some changes to transform
320. 42:33 themselves and so on the narcissist would go to therapy to restore his
321. 42:39 grandiosity and former self so the narcissist would expect you to be a mechanic something's wrong with the car
322. 42:46 you have to fix the car but it should be the same car don't dare to change the car car is the same the narcissist uh
323. 42:55 says for example I always used to get what I wanted you know his superficial
324. 43:01 charm his magnetism his charisma i always but lately I keep failing could
325. 43:07 you tell me how to how to go back to that state that I always got what I wanted could you fix me so it's about fixing not about transformation is about the restoration of the initial state of the boundary state not about personal
326. 43:24 improvement or betterment or Okay um you often say that the the covert narcissist is is worse than the overt
327. 43:38 um in what what way would it be worse what's the difference for example in a
328. 43:44 relationship a covert narcissist is full of rage it's very very similar to the borderline borderline is a rage disorder model personality disord disorder the anger is
329. 43:57 disproportionate inappropriate and uncontrollable same applies to the covert narcissist the covert narcissist
330. 44:03 is full seething with anger rage paranoid ideiation all kinds
331. 44:11 of conspiracy theories bitterness resentment he wants to kill and destroy
332. 44:18 everything and everyone and because he's unable to express it in socially acceptable ways in other words unable to
333. 44:25 sublimate this this effect he becomes passive aggressive he becomes u
334. 44:33 underhanded he he he would sabotage you he would undermine you he would poison
335. 44:40 you not physically maybe but he's toxic you see the overt narcissist
336. 44:46 coming the overt narcissist are clowns basically they announce their they announce their
337. 44:52 progress you see them coming and they're pretty straightforward about what they expect from you because they believe
338. 44:59 that they are entitled to whatever it is that they are demanding from you they demand certain things and they think you
339. 45:05 should give it to them it's your fault if you don't you should be punished if you don't but it's all
340. 45:11 straightforward we call it in in philosophy overt text the text is overt
341. 45:17 it's an open text you don't have to deconstruct the text there's nothing underneath it's what you see is what you
342. 45:24 get that's absolutely not the case with the covert narcissist the text in this
343. 45:30 case is hidden and not only don't you have access to the text but you are punished
344. 45:38 you're punished because you don't have access to the text the covert narcissist denies you access to who he truly is
345. 45:45 what he really wants how he you know his fantasies his dreams he denies you access to all these because it's humiliating to admit that you're a constant failure he denies you access to
346. 45:56 this then he reframes reality he says "I I didn't get a promotion at work because
347. 46:03 my colleagues envy me and they conspire against me." So he creates this paranoid conspiracy theories with within which you fit you're part of them and then he
348. 46:14 punishes you and you don't know why you have no idea why he punishes you and he doesn't even punish you openly it's not a negotiating process a bargaining process he doesn't come and say "Listen
349. 46:25 you didn't do this you didn't do that i'm going to punish you." It comes out of nowhere it's surreptitious it's
350. 46:32 hidden it's subtle you can't prove it in most cases it's so this is really bad
351. 46:38 it's like slow motion in toxicity
352. 46:44 slow motion toxicity and there's no end to it the covert narcissist in principle
353. 46:51 can become overt if the circumstances change and the environment changes so a covert can transition from one
354. 46:57 environment to another and when he transitions to the other environment he becomes overt
355. 47:03 we saw it in colonialism where white people who were scum they were criminals and garbage the trash of society when they immigrated to
356. 47:15 Africa they became masters they became suddenly you know the elite this trash
357. 47:22 human trash became the elite so in you see a situation where covert narcissist
358. 47:29 when they change environment can become overt narcissist okay so this happens but as long as the covert is embedded in
359. 47:36 his environment for example in his family with his workplace and so on they will do everything in their power to
360. 47:43 punish you by destroying you and everything you care
361. 47:49 for everything you hold dear everything you love it's um sabotage simply the most fitting word is sabotage
362. 48:01 there's also the the matter of decompensation um sometimes you say that
363. 48:07 uh when a narcissist a narcissist decompensates he becomes a primary
364. 48:13 psychop um and also that happens or can happen for the borderline or even for
365. 48:19 the psychopath uh how how do you explain that process what what happens sir
366. 48:26 that's just a minor correction when an overt when an overt narcissist decompensates he becomes a borderline
367. 48:33 okay and when a covert narcissist compensates he becomes a primary psychopath okay which which is another
368. 48:39 reason why covert narcissists are much more dangerous um
369. 48:45 decompensation is a theorized concept we didn't measure we didn't never capture
370. 48:52 the conversation in laboratory yeah but it's a theoretical construct theoretical dynamic where s where a person is subjected to enormous stress anxiety and
371. 49:03 tension challenges and crisis and so on and becomes overwhelming the person's capacity to cope is overwhelmed the person basically shuts down and
372. 49:16 shuts down and initially by shutting down defense mechanisms because psychological defense mechanisms are the interface between us and the world that's why most psychological defense
373. 49:28 mechanisms are ego functions they're functions of the ego because the ego is the
374. 49:34 interface the ego interacts with reality mediates reality in Freud's work of
375. 49:40 course that these are metaphors let it be clear there's no such thing as ego or super
376. 49:46 ego these are metaphors but useful metaphors i find them useful so there is something that interacts with reality
377. 49:53 why not call it ego yeah and the functions of ego many of them are known
378. 50:00 as defense mechanisms so the ego shuts down because reality becomes intolerable
379. 50:06 unbearable the ego is deactivated disabled because the ego is in touch with reality and keeps bringing pain keeps bringing frustration the more
380. 50:17 you interact with reality the more unhappy you are the more hurt you are the more so you stop you cut yourself
381. 50:23 off reality the only way to do this you disable the ego like turning a key in the switch disable the ego and all the
382. 50:29 functions stop and all the most of the defense mechanism stop this is called decompensation
383. 50:35 now when you decompensate you still have to function and you still have to interact with reality but you cannot
384. 50:43 continue to inter interact with reality the way you were because it didn't work
385. 50:49 the way you were proved to be dysfunctional problematic painful so you cannot continue the same way what you do instead you adopt another selfate this is the work of Philip Brome you adopt another self And in the case of for example the the
386. 51:08 overt narcissist the grandio narcissist the grandio narcissism is decompensated
387. 51:15 disabled and what is left behind is a borderline
388. 51:21 otto Kernberg who is the father of the field suggested that pathological
389. 51:27 narcissism is a defense against a borderline personality organization so
390. 51:33 initially there's borderline and it's painful it's disregulated it's horrible it's volatile
391. 51:40 it's terrifying and the individual a child actually creates pathological
392. 51:46 narcissism which is a kind of primitive religion with the with the divinity the
393. 51:52 false self imaginary friend if you wish and they protect against the borderline dynamics but when you take away the
394. 51:59 narcissism what is left the borderline dynamics so when you take away the narcissism exposed is the borderline
395. 52:06 behind like the wizard of o exposed similarly in covert
396. 52:12 narcissism the covert narcissist is passive aggressive defiant cautumacious hates authority mhm
397. 52:21 um and so if you take away the covert side the acting if you wish the
398. 52:27 pretensions the faking if you take that away in the compensation process what's left behind is the
399. 52:35 aggression unbridled undisguised aggression when the covert is covert the
400. 52:42 aggression is passive passive aggression but when you take away the covert side
401. 52:48 the covert camouflage what is left is just the aggression aggression is a good definition of psychopathy okay so you
402. 52:55 have a psychopath and so on and so forth every every personality
403. 53:01 disorder has a post collapse um post collapse post the compensation
404. 53:10 uh manifestation which is another personality disorder i actually gave a lecture recent I gave a lecture a few
405. 53:18 years ago sorry in um McGill University not a lecture a colloquium I gave a
406. 53:24 colloquium in McGill University and I proposed a periodic table like Mandel
407. 53:30 you know the y periodic table of personality disorders so that each personality disorder transitions to another personality disorder when there's a collapse when there is a
408. 53:41 crisis when there is the compensation there is transition from this personality disorder to this and from this to this exactly like the elements
409. 53:48 in nature so that's more or less the the picture okay thank you so much one one last thing uh yes I'm sorry just to so in my model all personality
410. 54:02 disorder disorders come in pairs not one but always
411. 54:09 two always two so that the second one is the default of the first one in case of collapse narcissism comes with borderline covert narcissism with psychopathy psychopathy with narcissism
412. 54:22 when the psychopath collapses he becomes narcissist he becomes grandio he he develops a fantasy we see it a lot in prisons when psychopaths are challenged or humiliated and so on they become extreme narcissists they are super
413. 54:38 grandiose they are godlike there are so in my theory there there are pairs of
414. 54:45 personalities or diads or duality of personality disorders you don't have a single one ever but always there is a
415. 54:52 fallback option a default option in case you fail with the primary you have the secondary
416. 54:58 that makes so much sense okay um doctor we are 1 hour in i don't know if you have time for a couple more questions yes with pleasure yes call me call me sir okay thank you sir
417. 55:13 um I understand that uh narcissistic personality disorder uh is not treatable
418. 55:20 but I was wondering about uh what happens with a narcissistic style is
419. 55:26 there hope for people that have a narcissistic style well there's two questions actually um narcissistic Yeah narcissistic
420. 55:37 personality disorder um is not treatable but narcissistic
421. 55:43 behaviors can be modified mhm we have had a lot of success with specific
422. 55:49 treatment modalities um including schema therapy and so on transactional analysis and so on we've
423. 55:56 had a lot of success with 10 15 treatment modalities in modifying narcissistic
424. 56:02 behaviors when you give the narcissist the right incentive the narcissist is very likely to alter modify behaviors although the behavior modification never
425. 56:13 persists and you need to do it all over again it's again you know but still you can
426. 56:21 let me give you a simple example you can leverage the narcissist's grandiosity in order to induce behavior modification in the narcissist for example you can tell the narcissist I
427. 56:32 don't believe you can do that even you I I don't think you can do that and just
428. 56:38 to prove to you how wrong you are and is capable of doing it he will change his behavior so you Narcissists are children these are people whose mental age is 2
429. 56:49 three years old and so it's easy to manipulate them nasis are very gullible very manipulable so in therapy you can
430. 56:57 modify behaviors but you cannot touch the core okay n I keep saying we call it
431. 57:03 narcissistic personality disorder the only way to fix it is to get rid of the personality can you ever do that we still don't know how to do that what is
432. 57:14 it personality implant what exactly you're going to do personality surgery it's nonsense the personality by
433. 57:21 definition is who you are so if who you are is disordered you're disordered for life end of story you can of course modify behaviors you can even modify certain dynamics for
434. 57:33 example dialectical behavior therapy has has had success in modifying certain
435. 57:40 borderline personality disorder dynamics so yeah you can but it's limited very
436. 57:47 limited um with regards to so this is with regards to narcissistic style is simply a set a set of behaviors
437. 58:01 um and traits that are subclinical in other words they don't amount to a
438. 58:07 clinical diagnosis so these are people who are obnoxious exploitative disempathic
439. 58:14 insensitive hyper hypervigilant hyper sensitive to criticism ISM aggressive
440. 58:20 and so on so forth and therapy or intervention treatment
441. 58:27 modalities of this and that kind can definitely be very useful and helpful in
442. 58:33 this mhm so for example in anger management classes we come across many narcissists
443. 58:41 and psychopaths more their proportion in anger management classes is much higher than in the general population and yet anger management is
444. 58:54 very successful it's one of the most successful interventions in clinical psychology um
445. 59:01 DBT is very successful so uh we know that if you if you are dealing with a
446. 59:08 person who has only narcissistic style this person doesn't have the impediments
447. 59:14 and obstacles to change in narcissistic personality disorder you don't have a functioning
448. 59:20 self because the formation of of the self was disrupted in early childhood
449. 59:26 you have an insecure attachment style severely insecure attachment style you have an inability to tell the difference between external and internal objects
450. 59:37 you are psychotic in this sense that's not some vakning that's autober you I mean the damage is severe
451. 59:45 severe you don't have any of this in people with narcissistic style they have
452. 59:51 a functioning self they can tell the difference between reality and fantasy they can tell the difference between external and internal they know exactly
453. 59:58 what they're doing they know the consequences of what they're doing they know why they're doing what they're doing it's much easier to work with them
454. 60:05 much easier to work with them they they don't reframe all the time they don't subject everything to the fantasy they
455. 60:11 don't coers they I mean they coers but it's not a integral part of the fantasy so it's much easier to work with them i think the critical key to success in with these people is the fact that
456. 60:23 they're grounded in reality mhm when you're grounded in reality that the clinician can construct a system of incentives system of incentives which
457. 60:34 would yield behavior modification when you're not grounded in reality and you have to work from within the
458. 60:41 fantasy it's a major problem because the fantasy usually is self-defeating and
459. 60:48 self-destructive by definition because it's divorced from reality how how self-efficacious can you be you can't be
460. 60:55 efficient when you're divorced from reality selfdefeating so if when you collaborate as a clinician with a with a
461. 61:01 narcissist fantasy you're actually collaborating or colluding with his own
462. 61:08 self-destruction there's a ethical dilemma here do you continue to pretend that the fantasy is real m is when you
463. 61:16 do as a clinician you are lying to your patient and you are but on the other hand if you control the fantasy head on
464. 61:23 nothing good will come out of it so it's narcissist untreatable whereas people with narcissistic style absolutely treatable with very good prognosis
465. 61:35 okay um some people try to go to couple therapy to
466. 61:42 uh sort of save the relationship would this be beneficial in any sense you can
467. 61:48 as I said you can modify the narcissist behaviors if he has abrasive behaviors unpleasant aggressive behaviors
468. 61:54 antisocial behaviors you can modify all these make life easier with a narcissist in a couple okay of course okay but
469. 62:01 it'll be shortterm let's say 2 months 3 months 6 months six months is a major accomplishment okay and you have to come
470. 62:08 back to couple therapy every few months for maintenance sessions and you never know when the narcissist
471. 62:15 is going to come up with a new fantasy because fantasies are not fixed people think that the sh fantasy is a fixed it's not fixed at all it's an evolving
472. 62:22 narrative it's reminiscent of a soap opera there's always a new chapter with something you know so a behavior
473. 62:29 modification which was induced by one fantasy could completely disappear once there's a new fantasy i'll give you an example in the initial phase of the shared fantasy the narcissist
474. 62:40 idealizes the intimate partner the narcissist creates an image of the
475. 62:46 intimate partner as a perfect being she can do no wrong she is drop deadad gorgeous she's hyper intelligent she's
476. 62:53 unprecedented she's amazing she's fascinating da da da so using this we
477. 62:59 can modify the narcissist's behavior but then later in the shared fantasy the narcissist devalues the intimate partner suddenly she's an enemy stupid ugly can
478. 63:12 do no right etc and as you can imagine owing to the change in perception of the
479. 63:18 intimate partner all the accomplishments of the initial couple therapy disappear
480. 63:25 because now the narcissist has an incentive to misbehave all the agreements all the therapeutic
481. 63:31 alliances all the contracts all the communication protocols I mean you can throw it to the garbage because the
482. 63:38 intimate partner has changed as far as a narcissist is concerned when you talk to the narcissist and says "Listen we had
483. 63:45 an agreement that you will never do this again why did you do this?" He would say "Because she changed she's no longer the
484. 63:53 same person she she's now my enemy she's conspiring against me she's hostile
485. 63:59 she's you know so it's a cysifian effort in the sense that every two months you
486. 64:06 have to sit with a narcissist and reinvent the wheel and maybe it's going to work maybe it's not going to work
487. 64:12 there's no couple with the narcissist so there's no couple therapy the narcissist is not in a couple you're not the
488. 64:19 narcissist's intimate partner narcissist don't do intimacy and they don't do partnership you are the narcissist's
489. 64:26 insignificant other you're a service provider your service provider and your
490. 64:32 main service is to preserve the fantasy and butress it and support it and it is
491. 64:38 up to the narcissist to rewrite and reframe the fantasy actually the fantasy
492. 64:44 is a life of its own but it's happening in the narcissist mind so it's out of your hands you know I hear I I listen to
493. 64:52 victims saying "If I only had done this if I only didn't do this if I only behaved this it's
494. 64:58 nonsense." The fantasy controls the narcissist it's an inexurable machinery
495. 65:04 set in motion by a trigger and from that moment on there's nothing you can do and
496. 65:11 nothing he can do and definitely nothing a clinician can do
497. 65:17 some victims get out of their relationship thinking they are the narcissist um how would you explain that what happens there they're possibly right because uh narcissism is contagious and the narcissist triggers in you exposure
498. 65:33 to narcissism triggers in you narcissistic defenses a reduction in empathy psychopathic behaviors so you
499. 65:41 become much more aggressive much less empathic much less compassionate much more conniving and conspiring and
500. 65:48 scheming much more much more narcissist so yeah you spend 10 years with a
501. 65:54 narcissist the only way to survive is to outnarize the narcissist there's no other way if you continue to be nice and
502. 66:02 kind and pleasant and empathic and so on your life expectancy will be considerably shortened trust me so yes
503. 66:10 there is influence there is contagion and the suspicion the feeling that victims have that they have lost their
504. 66:18 earthwile identity their previous identity they say I don't recognize myself i don't believe I've done this i
505. 66:24 can't believe I've done this i They're shocked they're shocked because they've acquired a new identity it's a process
506. 66:31 known as entrainment yes it's not a conspiracy theory it's actually a branch
507. 66:37 in neuroscience entrainment is is the use of repetitive rhythmical sounds to
508. 66:44 induce a synchronization of two or more brains the narcissist's verbal abuse is usually
509. 66:51 very rhythmic very repetitive very reminiscent of a liturgy or a prayer
510. 66:58 like a mantra if you record a narcissist over the years you see that it's very much like a mantra so it induces some kind of synchronization of of the of the brains control brainwashing entrainment he changes you is what I'm trying to say
511. 67:14 the narcissist changes you he also installs in your mind an app he puts
512. 67:20 inside your mind an introject a voice that keeps talking to you long after the narcissist is physically gone long after
513. 67:27 the nar is out of your life that voice is with you introjection it's an introject exactly like your mother your
514. 67:34 father did to you it's normal introjection is a normal healthy adaptive good process but the narcissist
515. 67:41 abuses this process to install in your mind a controlling harshly
516. 67:47 criticizing mildly sadistic voice that puts you down takes you down
517. 67:53 the only defense against all these monopolies of techniques is to become resilient to become hard to harden yourself become hard not to become
518. 68:05 aggressive to push back to not be so empathy if you empathize with the Naris
519. 68:12 it's a weakness it's a vulnerability he will he will take advantage of it so you lose your
520. 68:18 empathy you can't by the way people think they can disable empathy with one person and remain empathic with others
521. 68:25 no it's an extensive trait if you reduce empathy with one person you find that
522. 68:31 you have lost your empathy with everyone else that is what happens to soldiers when soldiers go to war they say "I'm
523. 68:38 I'm going to be dismpathic only with the enemy." Then they come back home and they kill someone because
524. 68:44 it's it's an extensive property so narcissists I keep saying that
525. 68:50 narcissism is a religion for various reasons the false self is a
526. 68:56 is a lot like God and the narcissist worships the false self and merges with the false self but there's another aspect narcissism exactly like religion converts people it's missionary the narcissist tries to convert you to
527. 69:13 the new cult to the new religion it tries to make you a believer that it's a faith and so gradually it's exactly like cult it's a cult so you
528. 69:26 become a cult member and you know when people leave cults or when they're taken out of cults by force you have to deprogram them there's debriefing
529. 69:37 there's deprogramming it's a long process yeah that I got just one more question
530. 69:45 that that was uh what I was going to ask you um it's about healing uh from this
531. 69:51 process right you you often talk about things like silencing the narcissist voice or concepts like embarring know
532. 69:58 working with the body is there um anything else people that are going
533. 70:04 through prolonged grief for example uh can do for for healing
534. 70:12 i will answer them in a strange way first of all on my on my YouTube channel
535. 70:18 there is a playlist it's titled narcissistic abuse healing and recovery contains well over 100 videos i think about three or 400 hours it is
536. 70:29 structured like a course like a no like so you watch the first then you watch the second you watch the third it leads you and so on another thing is that on
537. 70:41 May 22nd between May 22nd and May 25th I'm having a three days free completely
538. 70:47 free seminar in Scopia the beautiful capital of North Macedonia everyone is
539. 70:54 invited and the seminar deals with evidence-based scientific or science-based healing and recovery from
540. 71:01 narcissistic abuse so rather than go through everything go to the playlist watch the videos and if you're so inclined you can afford it and you have time come to the seminar you're very
541. 71:13 welcome and um it's free you know um and
542. 71:19 spend three days three and a half days actually learning all the what what modern science has to say neuroscience and so on so there would be in the seminar material that is actually not
543. 71:30 available on the playlist because after all there are limitations to what I can do on YouTube so the seminar is a bit more um grounded in science and a bit
544. 71:42 more um academic I can say okay but we have a pretty good idea how to how to work with victims of of abuse and narcissistic abuse and the prognosis is
545. 71:55 very good however it might prove to be a long process and you may have to go through
546. 72:03 very difficult times so there good news and bad news
547. 72:11 you're not the same person you've been you're not the same person you've been exposed to a force of nature you've been
548. 72:18 exposed to something religious people call it evil so you have Scott you have Scott Peek and you have
549. 72:26 uh Jordan Peterson and they use the word evil we don't use the word evil in clinical psychology uh people say possession or demons because they don't have any other words and any other vocabulary or
550. 72:38 language it's a rough tough possibly the worst imaginable type of abuse that's
551. 72:45 why I g I gave it a new name i coined the phrase narcissistic abuse because I
552. 72:51 thought that it stands apart from all other types of abuse and so you can't expect to go through something like this and then in 3 days of therapy or with two pills to fully recover and heal and
553. 73:04 go happy smiling and you can't expect this if you have lived with a narcissist for a year probably you would need a
554. 73:11 year if you've lived with a narcissist for 10 years you may need 10 years okay but rest assured you will you
555. 73:20 will you will not be the same person ever again but you will recover you will
556. 73:26 be functioning you will be happy and you will heal this this is what the statistics show i've been doing this for 30 years so yeah I think I know what I'm talking about
557. 73:38 sam thank you so much for your time for your for your insight and the information it's been a pleasure having
558. 73:45 this conversation with you thank you take care you're in Peru aren't you yeah yeah I am in Peru in in Lima i'm in Kusco right now the Sacred Valley
559. 73:56 yeah okay bye-bye thank you byebye thank you