Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Querying the Enemy: Hurt People Question Narcissism’s Aftermath (Q&A Skopje Seminar, 2025)

1. 00:01 Uh, Professor Wnner, thank you very much. It’s pleasure to see you in person, meet you finally after having
2. 00:07 watched uh for years. Learned a lot and they helped a lot of a lot in my therapy
3. 00:13 uh process and recovery. Thank you very much. Uh I’m happy to be here and happy to be with you all and talking to you.
4. 00:21 I’m excited. Um I have two questions uh from the content. uh narcissist makes m
5. 00:29 makes one mummy like tries to create a mummy in the other and also infantilizes he also he also infantilizes uh so it’s like two things how can the two things be together I
6. 00:41 will explain my first question this is the dual mothership dual mothership I will explain tomorrow okay ah okay the second question
7. 00:48 professor vagin is um when mothers or fathers are narcissistic
8. 00:54 for example is there How do they ch choose which children they want to use as supply? Is there
9. 01:00 does birth order for example matter? Because I’m the last born for example and I think I’m curious how my parents let’s say choose okay let’s make this
10. 01:11 child not the other to supply and so narcissistic parents use what I I
11. 01:18 called uh projective splitting. The splitting is uh dividing everything
12. 01:24 to all bad and all good. And projection is when you attribute things inside you
13. 01:31 to other people. When there is something just destroy the phone and that’s it. Why you
14. 01:37 just want me to step on it at your service? Uh projection is when you have parts in
15. 01:44 you that you don’t like, parts of you that you reject, parts of you that feel alien to you or parts of you that negate
16. 01:50 your self-concept. For example, you think you’re a good person, but there’s a part of you that is evil. So, you
17. 01:56 reject this part. You think you’re heterosexual, but there’s a part of you that is actually homosexual. You’re latent homosexual. So, you reject this part. So, you take these parts and you attribute them to other people. You say,
18. 02:08 “I’m not stingy. He’s stingy. I’m a good person. He’s a bad person. I’m I’m not angry. He’s angry. So you project. Projective splitting is when the parents
19. 02:20 uh take the parts that they dislike about themselves and attribute these parts to a child to a specific child. That child becomes the scapegoat. Yeah.
20. 02:32 So this child becomes the repository of all the parts of the parent that the parent rejected that the parent doesn’t like about himself or herself.
21. 02:43 At the same time, the narcissistic parent takes the parts that he likes
22. 02:49 about himself and he attributes these parts to another child.
23. 02:55 So it’s like the narcissistic parents splits himself or herself into I like
24. 03:03 myself here or I dislike myself here. The part that I like about myself
25. 03:09 belongs to this child. The part that the part that I hate belongs to this
26. 03:16 child. This is projective splitting and that gives rise to the me to the dynamic of scapegoat and golden child. the just
27. 03:23 let me answer your question. So we know that uh in some ways very
28. 03:32 limited ways uh firstborns enjoy a special status in the in the family and because they enjoy a special status they have a higher um probability of
29. 03:44 developing narcissism. cohort called it the grandio self grandio so for example the firstborns
30. 03:53 feel more entitled they feel more entitled they are more idolized they so they there is a bigger chance bigger risk of developing narcissism however in
31. 04:04 studies that we made of golden children and scapegoats we did not find a pattern
32. 04:12 and there were a few studies which by the way I mentioned in this book there are few studies where actually the last
33. 04:18 born became the golden child not the firstborn and the firstborn became the
34. 04:26 object of demands and expectations. So the firstborn was instrumentalized
35. 04:32 became an instrument. The parent had wishes and dreams and the parent failed.
36. 04:38 So the parent wants the first child to realize these wishes to realize these dreams instrumentalize or parentifies
37. 04:45 the first child and and so on and this gives rise to narcissism of course and
38. 04:52 so on. But it seems that the last child is more likely actually to end up as a
39. 04:58 golden child. Again contrary to all to everything you hear online. If you go to the Bible, they actually agree with you with this because it is the last child in the Bible that is the golden child. Benjamin Beyamin is the last child is a
40. 05:14 golden child. The last child in the family, the smallest, the youngest is usually become the but we don’t have uh at this stage we don’t have sufficient
41. 05:25 um studies to say anything with any certainty. We only know that firstborns
42. 05:31 have a higher IQ. They feel more entitled. They bear the expectations and demands
43. 05:37 of the parent and they’re more likely to develop narcissism. This we know. However, we don’t know much more than
44. 05:45 this. And we have one or two studies about lost children becoming golden children, but it’s not serious. I don’t
45. 05:51 take these studies too seriously. And so last thing, Professor Vakn. So um Sam Sam call me Sam. Professor of a seminar will take six days. Okay. Sam. Wow. Sam.
46. 06:02 Nice. Sam Sam. So do I understand correctly? The firstborn child uh is more likely to be um the
47. 06:13 source of supply for the parents. Exactly. Not only source of supply, but the love is conditional. The love is
48. 06:19 performative. In other words, I’m going to love you if you perform. The relationship with the first child is
49. 06:25 performance-based, transactional. I’m going to love you if you perform. What do you need to do? You need to realize my dreams. You need to realize my wishes. You need to give me supply. You need to make me proud. You need to
50. 06:36 accomplish things. You need to become famous. You need to become rich. You know, but only then I’m going to love you. My love is conditioned on your
51. 06:43 performance. Of course, these kind of children high likelihood become narcissist. And they their love is also
52. 06:51 transactional. I’m going to love you if you give me services. I’m going to love you if you give me supply. I’m going to love you if you give me sex. So they they as I said at the beginning,
53. 07:01 whatever happens to the narcissist, he wants you to experience, you know. Mhm. So he he experienced conditional love.
54. 07:08 He wants you to experience. It’s called contingent. The clinical term is contingent love.
55. 07:14 So we call firstborns as scapegoats, right? Yeah. But I think there are other people who want Yeah. Sorry. The firstborns are scapegoats. Then can we say first? We don’t call it a scapegoat. It’s uh we don’t have sufficient data who becomes a
56. 07:25 scapegoat except two studies that show that the last born a scapegoat. Yes. The
57. 07:31 first child is a scape goat. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry. You’re right. Yes. Sorry, my mistake. I I was thinking about golden child. I’m a firstborn by the way. Hello Sam. My name is Marie. I have a question referring to a video of yours.
58. 07:47 Um it’s called the fam fatal or versus mother video or actually I think it’s uh in a few videos you talk around this topic. So if I hear um obviously I’m here with my boyfriend and out of
59. 07:59 personal interest the question um so you talk a lot about the fact that the
60. 08:05 relationship is always transactional. There is no real love and what was this third major thing I forget. Um yeah, I’m I’m exchangeable or the woman or the
61. 08:17 partner is exchangeable. So um of course I’m I’m one of these women who hope for
62. 08:23 for a different case and therefore thinking of this video of the fam fatal because there you describe something completely different and the this fatal mechanism so to speak uh I cannot uh
63. 08:36 relate the stuff that you uh talk about right now to that case and yeah maybe
64. 08:42 this answer is too long but that is my question or maybe you speak tomorrow about it. Narcissists can be the victims
65. 08:49 of a shared fantasy. Nothing prevents it. The fatal creates a
66. 08:55 shared fantasy where the narcissist is in the role of the victim if she is with a narcissist. So the fact that you’re a
67. 09:02 narcissist doesn’t give you any immunity to a shed fantasy. Actually, many scholars think it’s exactly the opposite
68. 09:09 because narcissists are prone to fantasy. Narcissism is a fantasy defense. They many scholars say that
69. 09:15 narcissists are gullible. They’re naive. They are much more victimized by scam
70. 09:22 art con artists and swindlers and scammers because they they think they they know everything. They don’t need
71. 09:28 to, you know. So, it’s easy for a woman, for example, who is psychopathic or a
72. 09:34 woman who is narcissistic. It’s easy for her to create a shared fantasy and and trap or bait the narcissist. And then he
73. 09:41 his dynamics in the shed fantasy are identical to dynamics of a of a victim. He experiences it differently. The inner experience is different but the outside
74. 09:51 outcomes and so on are identical. Absolutely identical. This means we do the same thing. I don’t know what you do to each other.
75. 09:57 I don’t know which one of you is I think he’s the I think he’s the fatal. He he is the fatal.
76. 10:05 Oh, I don’t know how to interpretate that. But okay, we we do more or less the in this model, not us, but in this
77. 10:11 model that you described in this mechanism, we would do more or less the same to each other. Uh instead of one
78. 10:18 way, it would be two ways. Very to put it very simple, it’s usually uh in in a shirt fantasy
79. 10:26 clinically is what we call um what we call fia. It’s uh it’s uh what used to
80. 10:33 be called shirt psychotic disorder. In a shared psychotic disorder in a faded there’s one person who is leading is called the inducer. There’s one person
81. 10:44 who induces the fadu and there’s one follower. The person who induces the
82. 10:50 fadu falsifies reality creates an alternative reality and the person who is follower accepts the reality suspends
83. 10:58 her reality testing. So it’s very rare to have equal position to be equipotent
84. 11:05 in a shared fantasy. Okay. But if you sorry I have to ask one more question. So if it if if there’s this narcissist and he meets a fem fatal
85. 11:12 and it is the um uh kind of relationship you’re speaking about in this video that he does everything for this woman not only the little stuff not transactional. So in that case um he is not creating
86. 11:24 the shared fantasy but the the woman or the partner. It’s very usually very clear who is
87. 11:32 creating the shared fantasy because it is the person imposing her reality or his reality on the other.
88. 11:38 This would mean that a feat woman can never be a victim of um narcissistic abuse in my logic. I I think this is not a counseling session. Okay. I’m I’d be delighted to give you
89. 11:50 counseling but I don’t think that’s that’s the form. Okay. But maybe you will have a better insight. Maybe you’ll have a better insight after tomorrow when we go deeper into the shed fantasy and the dynamics. Hi. And thank you. I’m following you for
90. 12:02 years. I’m really happy to be here. And you survived. Wow. Impressive. Uh, and the first part of the seminar
91. 12:09 also. Thank you. So, my understanding was that um, and please correct me if
92. 12:15 I’m wrong. Um because narcissists use the same relationship uh template
93. 12:23 with every everyone. Maybe the partner doesn’t feel actually
94. 12:29 that special and that’s contributing to the perception that he cheats
95. 12:36 and as a defensive grandiosity in a way this is a way is this a way uh
96. 12:44 narcissism became contagious? No, narcissism is contagious from the
97. 12:50 very first few seconds because to continue to continue to be with the to continue to interact with a narcissist after the first 30 seconds, you need to suspend your reality
98. 13:01 judgment. You need to deny and repress the negative the uncanny valley, the negative reaction that you have. So from the first second, you’re under the narcissist control in the sense that you
99. 13:13 suppress your reality. The shirt fantasy is much more much more
100. 13:20 complex than than this. I think many of these questions better ask them after the segment on the
101. 13:27 shirt fantasy because maybe they’re answered and if they’re not then we can tackle them but also people will have a lot more tools to understand. Okay.
102. 13:38 So here. Mhm. Oh, hello little one. Little one. Some Thank you
103. 13:44 very much for a lot of videos. I think that they saved my life and my relation
104. 13:51 and self love somehow. I would and I heard lastly a video your video about
105. 14:00 the first signs how how how you can recognize narcissist. But I would like to to to
106. 14:06 know a little bit more if for example covert narcissist and psychopath are
107. 14:12 there so so likely to to recognize on the first side because it’s it’s a
108. 14:18 little bit I I know this a huge problem for for many of us to to recognize of it covert narcissist or you you you wrote me in the mail that they have uh every
109. 14:31 type of narcissist has subtle subtle signs body language and so on but about
110. 14:38 psychopaths. So is this the same? No, this is not a seminar dedicated to psychopath. Psychopaths are very good
111. 14:45 actors. Mhm. And with the psychopath studies show that you can be deceived even for long
112. 14:51 periods of time. But all the studies about narcissists are very clear. Within the first 30 seconds, you develop negative impressions, but then you report positive
113. 15:02 impressions. And this this discrepancy between how you really feel and what you
114. 15:09 report, self-reporting is very diff was when the book was written was very difficult to explain. But today we think it is cognitive dissonance. You are repressing it, denying it, reframing it. you’re saying something’s wrong with me or it’s not fair to criticize someone after 30
115. 15:26 seconds or I should give him a second chance or I’m so lonely let me compromise or you know I’m so sex
116. 15:32 starved and it looks good etc. So there are many dynamics inside you that are
117. 15:39 attempting to resolve the dissonance at your expense at your expense. All narcissists overt
118. 15:46 and covert exude the signals give give off the signals. There was no difference when the studies were conducted. So
119. 15:57 there were studies with Facebook photographs. I want you I want you to understand when I say studies I want you
120. 16:03 to understand what I mean. people a group of people were shown um Facebook
121. 16:09 photos single photo one photo not moving not photo then they were asked is this a
122. 16:16 narcissist or not and they said this is a narcissist and they were shown thousands of photos it’s one study
123. 16:22 example they were shown thousands of photos and they let’s say they identified for discussion sake 150
124. 16:28 nurses the people in the photos were subjected to testing psychological testing and
125. 16:35 were diagnosed already as narcissist or non-narcissist.
126. 16:42 The correlation was very high zero in one study it was 0 81 exceedingly high
127. 16:50 correlation anyone who knows statistics very high correlation means that people who are not trained they’re not
128. 16:56 clinicians they did not conduct any tests they did not meet the people based
129. 17:02 on a single photograph they were as accurate as diagnostician with a
130. 17:09 psychological test as accurate it. When people were shown a video of 30 seconds,
131. 17:16 we had the same results. When people were shown um email, we had the same
132. 17:22 results. So, it seems that people are able to diagnose narcissists within split
133. 17:30 seconds. I told you there’s a scholar in Harvard. She says 3 seconds. So why do we why almost universally people report
134. 17:38 that the first impressions of narcissists were very good when we know for sure that they’re able to identify a
135. 17:45 narcissist like that within seconds they’re denying they’re reframing they
136. 17:51 are there’s a process going a what we call a secondary process there’s a secondary process going on and this has
137. 17:57 a lot to do with neediness or with you know and and so on I depends how desperate
138. 18:03 also yes desperation and so on. So so here is another question.
139. 18:09 Um I’ve never met you. I have followed you absolutely all the time. I think
140. 18:16 extensively I cannot stop thinking and uh I have quite a unique quickly I’ll
141. 18:22 tell you a unique experience. I was the first girlfriend of the narcissist and
142. 18:29 he was younger than my own children. but difficult. Um, my children at the time
143. 18:35 that I was going through the difficulty with it, they were tolerant for a while and then as my older son said, “Lawrence
144. 18:42 has changed his name and we don’t know what it is.” Which I thought was very funny and clever. They’re nice boys.
145. 18:49 Anyway, I was incredibly isolated and the only person I was listening to is you, Sam. It’s kind of sad.
146. 18:55 So, you were doubly doubly isolated. Sorry. So, you were doubly isolated. No, don’t insult yourself. You see, I
147. 19:01 had a narcissistic, grandiose, narcissistic father and he was uh I I
148. 19:07 identify all the traits. But I just wanted to say apart from the wonderful content, what is absolutely amazingly wonderful is to see your joy in being
149. 19:20 with us. It’s not just what you say. You clearly love talking to us and that’s
150. 19:26 wonderful. Just quickly, narcissistic supply is fine. It doesn’t matter. I don’t think there I don’t think there’s anything to excuse. I can’t help it. I I I can spot emotion. And uh so just
151. 19:38 quickly, I developed red spots on my back from cortisol, which I didn’t know
152. 19:45 what it was. I had twice. And I think that was due to do with stress from the narcissist. And I actually started to
153. 19:52 speak in animal voices. Like I would make sounds that weren’t words. And my
154. 19:59 children even said to me, “Mommy, you can show your emotions.”
155. 20:05 The other thing was, I just wanted to say something before we got into a relationship. He went out one night. I
156. 20:12 was actually his landlady. He went out one night and it was just before his 21st birthday. And he went out and he
157. 20:20 had sent a text to me and he said in that text, and I believe this was honest, only 21. He went out. The the police brought him back from the local bridge. I didn’t go with him. I told him I didn’t think he should go. He should stay and talk. I said don’t go. But I
158. 20:37 didn’t go with him. But anyway, you know what he said? And I’ve never forgotten it. He said, “When people show me love
159. 20:44 and compassion, I feel lonely and emotionally cold.” And
160. 20:50 I think that was a thousand% the truth. That was a defense of a child who never
161. 20:56 felt loved. His mother told him that she took the morning after pill and it hadn’t worked. I mean, like she wanted
162. 21:02 to kill him. She went to the supermarket and she forgot he was with her and didn’t bring her him back. He made his
163. 21:08 own meals when he was five. And of course, he fed all that to me as facts. And then eventually when I took his
164. 21:16 defense, eventually when he know the new girlfriend and I said, “Why is she bad naming me?” Well, he said, “You said bad
165. 21:26 things about my mother and you never met her.” And then I knew he was giving back to me all his negativity which he had voiced through me because his new
166. 21:37 girlfriend being his age will meet his mother and I never will. So I understood
167. 21:44 everything from watching, from listening, from analyzing. And it is absolutely the most terrible thing I’ve ever experienced. And I experienced I think what one of my tenants said is
168. 21:56 depression. I had never experienced depression before. I came from a family, my father was a narcissist, but we had
169. 22:03 an enormous sense of humor. And I think a sense of humor can keep you trapped, but it does stop you being rigid and can
170. 22:10 help you from being mentally ill. Thank you. I know. I hope that by
171. 22:20 those photographs, were they all exactly the same stance? I’m sorry.
172. 22:26 Yeah, super quick. Just the photographs, were they all position? Each person was
173. 22:33 positioned in exactly the same stance like mug shots. Uh a maternal figure, they will convert
174. 22:39 you into maternal figure. The maternal figure will feature. No, no, in the in the the Facebook
175. 22:45 thing. Oh. Oh. Were they all different different Facebook photos? Just randomly selected Facebook photos.
176. 22:52 Not not same. Not same.
177. 22:58 Um, hello Sam. I’m I’m the Turkish filmmaker who’s making a film from your Thank you for coming.
178. 23:04 Videos. Um so I’m um academic as well and I’m I’m an anthropologist but I find
179. 23:11 this fascinating and um when you say um that actually clinically diagnosed narcissism is much less than those with narcissistic traits. Does this mean most of the abuse
180. 23:28 is actually happening by those with narcissistic traits if clinically
181. 23:34 diagnosed narcissists are actually a rare uh specy? And then the second question,
182. 23:40 which is a question you I think you’re gonna like, is about sex.
183. 23:46 And um does does um if most narcissists are
184. 23:53 autoerotic and if most of them are addicted to sex, does this mean they’re
185. 23:59 addicted to having sex to themselves? So these two I’ll start with the second uh question.
186. 24:06 This will be the last question because these two gentlemen I I’m abusing them.
187. 24:12 Okay. But these two gentlemen are you know I have to take think of their okay. Okay. I will answer these two this one and that’s it. Uh I didn’t say that most narcissists
188. 24:23 are into sex. On the very contrary I said that cerebral narcissists are asexual. Cerebal narcissist are not into sex. Somatic narcissist are also not into sex but they’re into sexual
189. 24:34 conquest. If the emphasis is on sex, the emphasis could be on bodybuilding or or athletic uh accomplishments, the use of
190. 24:42 the body. If their use of the body is sex oriented, then they would be hypersexed.
191. 24:48 Whereas cerebral narcissists are essentially hyposexed or actually a asexual asex celibate.
192. 24:57 Um remind me what was your first question? to have sex. The first the first question
193. 25:08 is Oh yes. Yes. Yes. So the answer to your
194. 25:14 question is the second question just to complete it is that sexual attraction in
195. 25:20 narcissism is exclusively to one’s own body. The attraction could be mediated via
196. 25:27 medium, could be mediated via pornography, via partner, via So the attraction could be
197. 25:34 mediated, but it’s exclusively to one’s own body, but the complication is it’s attraction to one’s own body as perceived by
198. 25:47 others. Again the narcissist derives all ego
199. 25:53 what what is called ego functions derives all internal dynamics from the outside. The narcissist imports his mind
200. 26:01 from the outsides. It’s a hive mind. So all the functions are brought from the outside and internalized and then they operate. Similarly with sex to be
201. 26:12 attracted to himself sexually the narcissist needs to have someone attracted to him.
202. 26:19 Someone is attracted to him. He says she’s attracted to me. It means I’m attractive.
203. 26:26 Now I can be attracted to myself. How will I do that? I can masturbate
204. 26:32 with her body or I can just look in her eyes and see that she finds me irresistible or whatever. whichever way.
205. 26:40 But this is the role of the partner. That’s why the narcissist needs a partner. You can ask if the narcissist is attracted to his body, why does he need another person? He needs another person because nothing is happening
206. 26:52 here. Everything is happening outside. He needs the attraction to come from the outside. The he is importing the
207. 26:59 arousal. Even the arousal is coming from outside. Regarding your first question, nar
208. 27:07 people with narcissistic style are not abusive in the proactive sense, but they’re insensitive, they’re
209. 27:13 exploitative, they are a-holes, they’re obnoxious, they’re unpleasant, they’re and so if
210. 27:20 you live with someone like that, it it grinds you. It it grates on you. It’s it’s corrosive. It’s corrosive. It erodess you. It’s you pay a price. You pay a price in terms of mental health if
211. 27:33 you share your life with someone like that. It doesn’t need to be a pathology. And by the way, the vast majority of abusers, including domestic people who domestic violence, the vast majority are
212. 27:46 not mentally ill. It’s a myth. They’re not mentally ill. They don’t have any personality disorder. They are perfectly
213. 27:53 healthy. They’re obsessed with control. They’re very controlling. or they have a perception of justice
214. 27:59 which is very distorted and so on but they’re mentally healthy. So you don’t have to be to share your life with a
215. 28:05 narcissist or when you are with a someone with narcissistic style it’s a highly unpleasant coexistence and when but when you are with a
216. 28:16 narcissist it’s annihilation it’s an extermination camp
217. 28:22 it is a two it’s it’s a it’s avitz recreated it’s about extermination
218. 28:29 that is a massive difference you cannot make a mistake if you date uh someone with narcissistic style, you may come
219. 28:35 out with a bitter taste. You say, “What an idiot. What a jerk.” You know, but if you date a narcissist, you’re totally
220. 28:42 disoriented, destabilized, discombobulated, confused. You’re lost
221. 28:48 internally. You’re lost externally. It’s it’s as if someone catapulted you to outer space. And the there’s a massive impact there. Even the uncanny valley reaction is very deep, very profound, you know, because as I said, the
222. 29:04 narcissist is an absence. I I keep saying in my videos and it’s
223. 29:10 highly politically incorrect. One day it will cost me my my jobs. I keep saying that narcissists are not fully human.
224. 29:17 They’re not fully human because take away empathy, take away empathy, take away positive
225. 29:24 emotions, take away the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, take
226. 29:30 away the ability to recognize the externality and separateness of other people. What is left? What makes us
227. 29:37 human? This is what makes people human. No, they’re empathic. They recognize that other people exist and they have rights and so on. They This is what makes us human. Take away all these elements.
228. 29:48 Someone who cannot experience any positive emotion. Even joy, narcissist
229. 29:54 don’t experience joy ever. They experience elation. We have special names. They are so crazy. They’re so out
230. 30:01 there that we have special names. We had to invent a whole new dictionary. Instead of joy, we don’t say
231. 30:07 narcissistic joy. We say narcissistic elation. You understand? So we I had also in the
232. 30:15 80s and 90s I had to come up with a completely new vocab uh vocabulary completely new language
233. 30:22 most of which is still used but there are many others who came up with is elation not positive sorry is elation not no elation is uh triumphant elation is is uh yes it’s about it’s
234. 30:37 not only power play but it’s also has to do with ancient what what is called oceanic feeling It’s ancient uh replay
235. 30:43 replay of uh Yes, please.
236. 30:49 Uh thank you for all of your work and thank you for providing us with this seminar. It’s a huge pleasure to be
237. 30:55 here. Since you mentioned Hitchcock, my question is do you happen to have a list
238. 31:01 of cinematographic andor musical depictions of narcissism both from the point of view of the narcissist and from the point of view of the victims? I have on my YouTube channel I have a playlist
239. 31:13 of fiction and film. So you can find there films, reviews of films, analysis
240. 31:19 of films and so on. Thank you. You’re welcome. That was a short one. Disappointing.
241. 31:26 Thank you all for coming and see some of you tomorrow at 10:00. I see. Thank you.