And you asked me to be honest, and in this conversation, and it’s a prerequisite, and it’s a rule of the game, so I abide. So do I, I also feel resistance throughout this conversation. So that’s where your mother and I tie in.

I have a very strong incentive to collaborate with you. So that’s why I’m suppressing my resistance.

But it doesn’t mean it’s not there. And my resistance wears many forms. But let’s stop here to allow you to reflect.

So you’re saying that that my mother has resistance to doing the reflection and that you’re seeing a parallel to your situation that, on one hand, you’re willing to do the reflection. But on the other hand, that you have a real strong you’re feeling a constant resistance to the reflection.

Yes. As I said, I have a very strong incentive to proceed and abide by your rules. And that incentive is narcissistic supply. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not feeling resistant. And so the resistance wears many forms.

So I question the sagacity, I question the wisdom of engaging in this kind of exchange. Couldn’t we have been much more fruitful? Could we have been much more constructive, using another type of exchange? I’m questioning my ability to be fully sincere. Not that I’m lying or misinforming you, but I’m questioning my ability to be aware of the truth in me. So I don’t know how productive and how truthful it is.

But all these are forms of resistances. All these are kind of resistances. I’m trying to find an excuse to break it off. Because I am averse to touchy feely, you know, I‘m very aversive.

But on the other hand, I have a very strong incentive. I think this series is very, very interesting, not only the viewership, not only narcissistic supply.

But then we are creating something interesting. I don’t want to say unique, but it’s interesting.

The viewership numbers prove it to me and people find interest in it. So I would feel it would be a great shame and pity to break it off just because I have some psychological resistances, which are related to my narcissism. Because I’m the omniscient, I’m the omnipotent, I’m the boss, I’m the alpha male.

But here you’re forcing me to be your equal. And I’m abiding by the truth. I am your equal.

But it generates, of course, narcissistic injury of some kind.

So what I’m saying is these resistances are in the background, in the rear, their heads, ugly heads, not ugly heads, but they rear their heads repeatedly.

You asked me to describe what’s happening inside me. So that’s one thing that’s happening inside this concept. What is it doing? Can’t we do it differently? Is it the right thing to do?

You know, this whole thing is happening.

Uh, so you’re recounting what’s happening inside yourself. And you’re finding that, on one hand, you know, you’re willing to do this empathic listening, but that there’s an ongoing kind of a resistance and that resistance kind of manifests itself in different ways, comes up.

I think you can even say rears its head or ugly head or whatever.

And one of the resistance that you’re feeling is, well, couldn’t we be doing this a different way? Isn’t there some other way of doing this?

There was another resistance, there was a couple, there’s just different ways of resisting. Like, you know, yeah, but you had different ones, but I’m not sure I got each of those.

Yeah they’re not very important. Just giving examples.

But one minor correctional point that I didn’t make clear is that it’s not that I’m willing to do it. It’s not that I’m acquiescing or I’m coerced. I want very much to do it because I think that we’re creating not only a source of supply, but is value.

So I want to do it. I’m looking forward to doing it, but I cannot suppress my narcissistic injury, my resistances, my grandiose reactions, my rage. I cannot suppress.

So it’s like I have a multiple personality. Like I have two personalities. One of them, one personality wants very much to work on it and sees value in what we’re doing and so on. And the other one keeps nagging at the first personality and saying, what is it that you’re doing? Isn’t it stupid? Why are you doing this? Couldn’t you do, have done it much better? Couldn’t you have done it differently? Is this the right thing to do? I don’t have to waste time, etc.

And this by the way, is the constant state of the narcissist. This duality, it’s a constant battle between the false self, which is a concoction and invention and other elements in the personality that are suppressed.

And so there’s always this kind of multiple personality disorder going on. And it is tied to empathy, but that’s the next part.

So you’re seeing it as kind of actually two, it’s almost like different personalities. One is wanting to do this because you see that it might have some benefits and wanting to kind of explore it and try it and do it, doing the reflective empathic listening.

And then the other is like, well, isn’t there other ways? You know, kind of more of the sense of wanting to be grandiose or these other parts.

So you have these two parts that are kind of going back and forth between each other. And then you’re seeing that as a part of the narcissistic experience that you have of always being kind of on that edge between the two.

Yes. This inner conflict is the kernel of narcissism.

So this conflict between these different ways of being, you’re seeing as the kernel of narcissists.

Narcissists are shattered people. They are fractured people, fragmented.

This ties in with empathy, which is the last part of this realm, my realm before I’m fully heard. This ties in with empathy.

I were to choose to empathize with people properly and healthily and so on, I would have to sacrifice my narcissistic defenses.

I have defenses against this inner fragmentation and the defenses are I am perfect. I’m brilliant. I’m omnipotent. I’m omniscient. These are the defenses. I know that I’m a broken vessel. I know that I’m damaged goods, but to defend against that, against this extremely painful realization, I have these narcissistic defenses.

We call it compensatory narcissism. I compensate.

But if I empathize with another person, then I can’t be omnipotent. To empathize with you means to be you to some extent, to be equal to you, to be able to put myself in your shoes, means that you and I are interchangeable.

But how can we be interchangeable if I’m godlike? If I’m omniscient, if I’m omnipotent, definitely you’re not omniscient. You’re not omnipotent. I am.

So if I empathize, I have to sacrifice my narcissism. If I sacrifice my narcissistic defenses, I experience this inner fragmentation and shattering, which is a pain beyond description. It’s life-threatening, definitely.

I believe that if I lose my narcissistic defenses, I will commit suicide. My narcissistic defenses guarantee my life.

They stand between me and the overwhelming pain that is the world.

To empathize, I need to sacrifice this. I need to remove them, thereby exposing myself to potential mortal danger.

So, you’re seeing this conflict between yourself, between parts of yourself, and that you create the kind of protection for yourself, and if you were to remove the protections that you would kind of shatter and totally be like your, you’d commit suicide because, because it’s so painful.

I don’t know if it’s, it‘s, there’s some, yeah, for some reason, it’s so painful. There’s so much pain that you would commit suicide.

So you have to have, you have these defenses and it’s really, you’re relating it to empathy because, I guess one of the defenses is that you’re kind of superior and God-like and above everyone else.

And then to empathize, it puts us on an equal kind of a footing, an equal space. And that’s maybe threatening or it has potential to bring up the pain, bring up the pain.

And that pain is so overwhelming that to experience that you would maybe just commit suicide rather than deal with that pain.

So you have all these defenses kind of built up to kind of avoid that pain.

And like every defense, it isolates you from the world.

What is a defense? What is a defensive wall? What is a castle? It’s isolated from the world, it doesn’t allow you to access other people and doesn’t allow other people to access you.

Hence the lack of empathy. Lack of empathy is the derivative of narcissistic defenses. It’s an inevitable outcome of narcissistic defense.

Oh yeah. So the defenses that protect yourself actually create a wall against connecting with others and empathizing with others because you have to protect yourself, but that protection creates this disconnect and lack of empathy with others.

Yeah. I’m fully heard.

Okay. Yeah. I guess the one thing that came up to me was I’m willing to empathize with every part of you in that sense. Like, you know, that part, the other part, the wall part, the pain part.

So for me, the empathy is to empathize with all the different parts and that they’re all fine.

They’re all kind of equally valid and worthy, worthy of being empathized with.

You say that you make no discrimination or you don’t discriminate between the various parts of me in terms of your ability and willingness to empathize with them. You’re willing to empathize with all the structures and constructs that together make me. That would be the pain, the wall, the defenses, and, and everything else.

You see no problem with empathizing with any of these parts and all of them put together.

Yeah. They’re all valid parts of the human experience.

No need to reflect. They’re all valid parts.

Yeah. So, yeah. So that’s what’s coming.

I’m also thinking about the time we‘ve gone for a little bit over almost an hour and a half. We had a little setup time.

So I’m not sure how I’m, I’m fine with continuing the conversation again.

So would I. I would like to discuss next time, if you’re amenable to suggestions, I would like to discuss next time.

You mentioned the keywords human experience. I would like to try to compare your human experience with my human experience. I’m a human being, despite appearances of a human being and you’re a human being. So we are different types of human beings. I’ve been diagnosed as a narcissist. So I have a different human experience. I would like to try to compare them, maybe using some empathy techniques.

And because I think my inner experience is dramatically different to yours. And well, I hope so, at least for you. So it raises the question in which sense are we both human?

What’s a common denominator? What is our humaneness? If we’re that radically different?

So first we have to establish if we are radically different. And if we do discover that we are radically different, as we are being told by psychology textbooks and so on, then in which sense are we both members of the same psychological species? In which sense are we both human?

And of course, this is the core of empathy. It’s exactly the main, the crux of what is empathy.

Because if there is no common humaneness and human experience, if we have no common denominator, then how can we empathize at all? Maybe we’re misleading ourselves, deluding ourselves. You know, in psychology, there is the issue of intersubjectivity.

So many philosophers say that it is not possible to empathize. If so, it’s a factor that means like, it’s not, it’s not possible at all, that we delude ourselves into believing that we can empathize. But actually, it’s not possible because our minds are not accessible. And we are using private languages, and no dictionary exists between us, etc.

So there is this philosophical consideration. You don’t have to reflect me, I’m just talking about the future talk.

So if you’re up to it, we can try to compare human experiences and discover what is it that unites us? What is the bridge between us that allows us to empathize with each other? And maybe we’ll discover that there is no such bridge, that empathy is excluded, you know, between the two of us because I’m a narcissist.

And maybe we will discover the common denominator, the bridge that allows you to cross over to me. And maybe, in reverse form, allows me to cross over to you.

I think we need to tackle our humanness. What makes us human?

Well, I will reflect, you said you were saying I didn’t need to reflect, is that we can have another dialogue and look at what is how are we different or how are we the same? And is there some kind of a connection there and really kind of explore what is the qualities that we have? And what are our experiences? And if we go deep enough, where is the humanity, that common humanity?

And then you’re bringing up, maybe even, it’s not even possible to empathize as some philosophers to say that that’s something that’s not even a possibility. So keeping that an awareness of that too.

But to kind of do an exploration of really hearing where we are, understanding who we are as people, as humans, and as human beings and where is this, maybe where is the overlap in our humanity?

But it’s, in our case, you and me specifically, it’s going to be pretty unique because I am a narcissist.

Part of the definition of pathological narcissism is severe deficiency in humanness. So I’m like a quasi-human, pseudo-human, not full fledged human.

It’s a little like you would have an alien. It’s a little like having an alien on the other end and trying to see whether you can empathize with an alien in effect. It’s an interesting question. Can you empathize with an alien?

You’re saying that you see yourself as a narcissist, that you’re an alien and it’s like an alien and is it possible to empathize with an alien? Is that even a possibility?

Do I have any sufficient residual, sufficient residue of humaneness that will allow you to really empathize with me, understand me, and communicate with me effectively? Or am I so removed that I am from Mars and no empathy is possible?

So is there something, is there a humaneness within you or are you so removed from this humanity that you’re like from Mars from like a totally different space and is that even possible to empathize with you?

Because psychology textbooks claim that both psychopaths and narcissists miss critical dimensions, critical parameters of being human.

Empathy, but not only empathy.

So they claim, it’s not my claim, they claim these authorities in psychology, they claim that narcissists and psychopaths are partly human or deficiently human or whatever. So that’s why I think the conversation between us could be of great interest. It’s not like two normal people try to find a common denominator.

It’s like a normal person and something as close to possible to an alien as you can get on Earth.

So this could be an interesting conversation. It would be with the normal person, what you’re calling a normal person and something that’s like an alien on Earth and that there’s philosophers or academics or whatever are saying that, you know, narcissists, psychopaths don’t have these capacities or empathy. And so what will kind of happen next?

Yeah, I’m fully heard and I think we’re fully done.

Yeah, I think so. Well, that was great. So yeah, we’ll set a schedule and continue the conversation. So I’ll thank you for spending this time. And with that, I’ll actually stop the recording. So stay tuned