Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Why Your Grief Overwhelms You Post-Narcissist (Clip: Skopje Seminar, May 2025)

1. 00:00 about nine times if accounted correctly. In the case of narcissistic abuse, the grief is much more compounded, much deeper and has multiple layers and multiple levels. The first the first level in narcissistic the grief after narcissistic abuse I think is the unrealized potential. What could have been the wishes, the dreams, the fantasies, the plans, the specific plans, the vision of the future, the idea of the of togetherness that persists, the anything that characterizes every romantic or intimate about nine times if accounted correctly. In the case of narcissistic abuse, the grief is much more compounded, much deeper and has multiple layers and multiple levels. The first the first level in narcissistic the grief after narcissistic abuse I think is the unrealized potential. What could have been the wishes, the dreams, the fantasies, the plans, the specific plans, the vision of the future, the idea of the of togetherness that persists, the anything that characterizes every romantic or intimate
2. 00:35 relationship, every business partnership, every friendship. But in the case of narcissism, there is no good reason for the unrealized potential. Whereas in other relationships, you can find good reasons why the potential remained un unrealized where the there was no actualization of the fantasy or the wish or the dream or the plan. Good reasons, very good reasons. You establish a business, the market goes against you, you team up with uh someone in a romantic relationship or intimate relationship, you discover that you’re relationship, every business partnership, every friendship. But in the case of narcissism, there is no good reason for the unrealized potential. Whereas in other relationships, you can find good reasons why the potential remained un unrealized where the there was no actualization of the fantasy or the wish or the dream or the plan. Good reasons, very good reasons. You establish a business, the market goes against you, you team up with uh someone in a romantic relationship or intimate relationship, you discover that you’re
3. 01:10 incompatible. There always good reasons. In narcissism, the unrealized potential, the dream, the vision, the shattered, the shattered fantasy, they are without any good reason whatsoever. You can’t put your finger on a reason. It’s all very arbitrary and capriccious and impersonal and insane. And so there’s no no reason. You can’t make sense of of what has happened. There’s no meaning to it. And that’s because of course everything is happening inside the narcissist’s mind, not externally. incompatible. There always good reasons. In narcissism, the unrealized potential, the dream, the vision, the shattered, the shattered fantasy, they are without any good reason whatsoever. You can’t put your finger on a reason. It’s all very arbitrary and capriccious and impersonal and insane. And so there’s no no reason. You can’t make sense of of what has happened. There’s no meaning to it. And that’s because of course everything is happening inside the narcissist’s mind, not externally.
4. 01:45 And these processes inside the narcissist mind are compulsive, automatic, repetitive, predetermined decades before you enter the scene. So you can’t make sense of it, of course, unless you come to a seminar like this and learn about the shirt fantasy. And even then you may understand what has happened but it doesn’t make it meaningful or justified or understandable. It’s strange in this sense. It’s very much like being the victim of a natural disaster. A natural disaster. We know everything And these processes inside the narcissist mind are compulsive, automatic, repetitive, predetermined decades before you enter the scene. So you can’t make sense of it, of course, unless you come to a seminar like this and learn about the shirt fantasy. And even then you may understand what has happened but it doesn’t make it meaningful or justified or understandable. It’s strange in this sense. It’s very much like being the victim of a natural disaster. A natural disaster. We know everything
5. 02:20 about about winds. We know everything about moisture. We know everything about the ocean. Everything. We know a lot about the oceans. We know temperatures and and so we know how a tornado or a hurricane forms. We know how they move. We know how. But when you are the victim of a tornado or the victim of a hurricane, it doesn’t make sense. There’s no sense there. There’s no meaning in what has happened to you. you. In other words, a relationship with a narcissist confronts you with the fact that life is about about winds. We know everything about moisture. We know everything about the ocean. Everything. We know a lot about the oceans. We know temperatures and and so we know how a tornado or a hurricane forms. We know how they move. We know how. But when you are the victim of a tornado or the victim of a hurricane, it doesn’t make sense. There’s no sense there. There’s no meaning in what has happened to you. you. In other words, a relationship with a narcissist confronts you with the fact that life is
6. 02:54 random and meaningless and that you are completely utterly insignificant and that everything you thought about yourself, your agency, your self-efficacy, they’re illusions. You’re deluding yourself. You’re nothing. The relationship with the narcissist confronts you with your nothingness. Your speck of dust as relevant, as significant, as meaningful as a speck of dust. This confrontation with the fact that your life has no meaning, that you’re insignificant is devastating. Absolutely devastating. random and meaningless and that you are completely utterly insignificant and that everything you thought about yourself, your agency, your self-efficacy, they’re illusions. You’re deluding yourself. You’re nothing. The relationship with the narcissist confronts you with your nothingness. Your speck of dust as relevant, as significant, as meaningful as a speck of dust. This confrontation with the fact that your life has no meaning, that you’re insignificant is devastating. Absolutely devastating.
7. 03:40 This is why people escape to religion. religion religion gives them the illusion that they can drink coffee. So that’s why people end up uh religious being religious because religion gives you the illusion of course that life is meaningful that it is embedded in some kind of narrative that it makes sense that you are agentic that you’re contributing for example if you’re fighting against evil you’re contributing somehow that if you pray then you are establishing the order of the world. Religion is a narrative a This is why people escape to religion. religion religion gives them the illusion that they can drink coffee. So that’s why people end up uh religious being religious because religion gives you the illusion of course that life is meaningful that it is embedded in some kind of narrative that it makes sense that you are agentic that you’re contributing for example if you’re fighting against evil you’re contributing somehow that if you pray then you are establishing the order of the world. Religion is a narrative a
8. 04:14 counterfactual totally delusional narrative which endows your life with meaning and significance. And religion is not the only case. To a large extent, science is. Of course, science is very effective. Science gives rise to technologies and so on so forth. But science is also a philosophy. And science gives us the impression that the world is structured, that the world is subject to laws, laws of nature, and that we have the capacity to make sense of the world, to understand it deeply, and in some way to gain meaning somehow counterfactual totally delusional narrative which endows your life with meaning and significance. And religion is not the only case. To a large extent, science is. Of course, science is very effective. Science gives rise to technologies and so on so forth. But science is also a philosophy. And science gives us the impression that the world is structured, that the world is subject to laws, laws of nature, and that we have the capacity to make sense of the world, to understand it deeply, and in some way to gain meaning somehow
9. 04:48 by studying the universe. And that’s of course a set of complete counterfactual delusions. So we all the time invent narratives exactly as Victor Frankle had said. We all the time invent narratives that help us to inject meaning into our lives to make sense of our lives and to feel significant to feel that we are not just born and die but that we have made a difference that we matter to someone that we have contributed or are contributing something that you know and the narcissist comes along and you have by studying the universe. And that’s of course a set of complete counterfactual delusions. So we all the time invent narratives exactly as Victor Frankle had said. We all the time invent narratives that help us to inject meaning into our lives to make sense of our lives and to feel significant to feel that we are not just born and die but that we have made a difference that we matter to someone that we have contributed or are contributing something that you know and the narcissist comes along and you have
10. 05:25 a relationship with the narcissist and you realize that none of this is true. None of this is true. And the narcissist objectifies you, dehumanizes you, commoditize you, commodifies you, and renders you interchangeable, a unit, a unit indistinguishable from all other units and uses you and then discards you and then it has no meaning, no beginning, no end, nothing. It served no purpose, led nowhere. There is a hermeneutic crisis, a crisis of an explanatory crisis, a meaning, crisis of meaning. So this is one level of grief. a relationship with the narcissist and you realize that none of this is true. None of this is true. And the narcissist objectifies you, dehumanizes you, commoditize you, commodifies you, and renders you interchangeable, a unit, a unit indistinguishable from all other units and uses you and then discards you and then it has no meaning, no beginning, no end, nothing. It served no purpose, led nowhere. There is a hermeneutic crisis, a crisis of an explanatory crisis, a meaning, crisis of meaning. So this is one level of grief.
11. 06:05 This is one level of grief that is unique to narcissism and to natural disasters and you know similar things and you can’t find it in a regular breakup in a regular relationship. The next um the next um coffee the next uh form of grief is because of the discrepancy between fantasy and reality. The narcissist forces you to divorce reality. The narcissist forces you to suspend or impair your reality testing your ability to gauge and evaluate reality properly. The narcissist proposes to you convincingly that the This is one level of grief that is unique to narcissism and to natural disasters and you know similar things and you can’t find it in a regular breakup in a regular relationship. The next um the next um coffee the next uh form of grief is because of the discrepancy between fantasy and reality. The narcissist forces you to divorce reality. The narcissist forces you to suspend or impair your reality testing your ability to gauge and evaluate reality properly. The narcissist proposes to you convincingly that the
12. 06:44 fantasy, the shared fantasy is a preferable alternative to reality and that you should therefore embed yourself fully in the fantasy and ignore, deny, reframe or whatever uh with reality. It’s an escape route. And here’s the fact, people dislike reality intensely. People hate reality. All people hate all reality. Even if they lie to themselves that there are some parts of reality they like, they don’t. Reality sucks. And so people don’t like reality. So some people watch movies, other people fantasy, the shared fantasy is a preferable alternative to reality and that you should therefore embed yourself fully in the fantasy and ignore, deny, reframe or whatever uh with reality. It’s an escape route. And here’s the fact, people dislike reality intensely. People hate reality. All people hate all reality. Even if they lie to themselves that there are some parts of reality they like, they don’t. Reality sucks. And so people don’t like reality. So some people watch movies, other people
13. 07:22 play video games, some people fall in love as a form of addiction. They’re addicted to falling in love. Some people uh become religious. Some people, you know, but all these are ways to avoid reality. The main preoccupation of a human animal as distinct from all other animals is to avoid reality. Whereas all other animals develop senses and capacities and traits to confront reality, to gauge reality to the human person. The human animal is dedicated to somehow either avoiding reality or changing it in a way that would render play video games, some people fall in love as a form of addiction. They’re addicted to falling in love. Some people uh become religious. Some people, you know, but all these are ways to avoid reality. The main preoccupation of a human animal as distinct from all other animals is to avoid reality. Whereas all other animals develop senses and capacities and traits to confront reality, to gauge reality to the human person. The human animal is dedicated to somehow either avoiding reality or changing it in a way that would render
14. 08:04 it unrecognizable. Science for example, all everything we do as human beings is about either avoiding reality, not confronting it, isolating ourselves, firewalling ourselves, go away or changing reality in such a way that it’s no longer a reality actually that we are in control in such a way it’s it’s no longer real. It’s so the narcissist comes along and offers you this wonderful fantastic alternative to reality and you say you say to yourself this is this is great this I’ve been waiting for this all my it unrecognizable. Science for example, all everything we do as human beings is about either avoiding reality, not confronting it, isolating ourselves, firewalling ourselves, go away or changing reality in such a way that it’s no longer a reality actually that we are in control in such a way it’s it’s no longer real. It’s so the narcissist comes along and offers you this wonderful fantastic alternative to reality and you say you say to yourself this is this is great this I’ve been waiting for this all my
15. 08:44 life and it is the discrepancy the unrealized potential is about also about the discrepancy between the the fantasy and the reality. In other words, when you finish, when you are through with a relationship with the Narcissist, you’re forced back into reality. You’re forced back into reality and you mourn the fantasy. You mourn the fantasy because it gave you a way out of reality. You also tend to you also tend to catastrophize. Victims of narcissistic abuse and actually victims of all abuse tend to life and it is the discrepancy the unrealized potential is about also about the discrepancy between the the fantasy and the reality. In other words, when you finish, when you are through with a relationship with the Narcissist, you’re forced back into reality. You’re forced back into reality and you mourn the fantasy. You mourn the fantasy because it gave you a way out of reality. You also tend to you also tend to catastrophize. Victims of narcissistic abuse and actually victims of all abuse tend to
16. 09:24 catastrophize. So they they become a bit paranoid. There’s paranoid ideiation and there is hypervigilance, suspiciousness and there is um threat um a perception of imminent threat, ambient atmospheric imminent threat somewhere. This is part of paranoid ideation but it’s not targeted. It’s not like this person is threatening me but something bad is going to happen. So many victims of narcissistic abuse develop obsessive compulsive rituals to fend off the imminent threat. You know that obsession compulsion is about catastrophize. So they they become a bit paranoid. There’s paranoid ideiation and there is hypervigilance, suspiciousness and there is um threat um a perception of imminent threat, ambient atmospheric imminent threat somewhere. This is part of paranoid ideation but it’s not targeted. It’s not like this person is threatening me but something bad is going to happen. So many victims of narcissistic abuse develop obsessive compulsive rituals to fend off the imminent threat. You know that obsession compulsion is about
17. 09:59 coping with unspecified imminent threats. The obsessivecompulsive person says something bad is going to happen but if I wash my hands 10 times it’s not going to happen. So this is obsession compulsion. victims develop this and what they mourn because of the catastrophizing what they mourn is the loss of the sense of safety they don’t feel safe anymore and they mourn this they say I used to feel so comfortable I used to feel so safe I used to feel so secure I used to feel so stable and now coping with unspecified imminent threats. The obsessivecompulsive person says something bad is going to happen but if I wash my hands 10 times it’s not going to happen. So this is obsession compulsion. victims develop this and what they mourn because of the catastrophizing what they mourn is the loss of the sense of safety they don’t feel safe anymore and they mourn this they say I used to feel so comfortable I used to feel so safe I used to feel so secure I used to feel so stable and now
18. 10:32 everything is so frightening everything is so threatening everything is so ominous and I hate this so there’s a mourning of this what we call secure base. There’s a mourning of this feeling that you’re enscconced. You are to some to a large extent protected. And one of the reasons people feel less safe after narcissistic abuse is because they their identity has been taken away from them. So there’s no one there to have their back. There’s no one there to protect them. There’s no one there to guard everything is so frightening everything is so threatening everything is so ominous and I hate this so there’s a mourning of this what we call secure base. There’s a mourning of this feeling that you’re enscconced. You are to some to a large extent protected. And one of the reasons people feel less safe after narcissistic abuse is because they their identity has been taken away from them. So there’s no one there to have their back. There’s no one there to protect them. There’s no one there to guard
19. 11:06 them. They have been hollowed out. They’ve been emptied. So this they are not no longer their own best friends. They’re irretrievable losses, irrable losses in relationship with the narcissist. The lost time, the lost mental energy, the lost is a loss. The relationship with the narcissist is an an experience of overwhelming total loss and only loss from the from the get-go and to the very end. There are recurrent experiences of loss and so the whole relationship is a loss experience and this creates a lot of them. They have been hollowed out. They’ve been emptied. So this they are not no longer their own best friends. They’re irretrievable losses, irrable losses in relationship with the narcissist. The lost time, the lost mental energy, the lost is a loss. The relationship with the narcissist is an an experience of overwhelming total loss and only loss from the from the get-go and to the very end. There are recurrent experiences of loss and so the whole relationship is a loss experience and this creates a lot of
20. 11:49 grief and here I’m losing my wife. What among the losses are the loss of identity, the loss of self, the loss of goals and the loss of the way you saw yourself. what we call ego ideal the loss of your um the way you aspire to be the way you wanted to be so that is lost as well so the losses are not only external I lost time I lost this I lost money but the losses are heavily internal you have lost the most important thing yourself this is a grief that cannot be described and um it’s a multiple multiple mourning grief and here I’m losing my wife. What among the losses are the loss of identity, the loss of self, the loss of goals and the loss of the way you saw yourself. what we call ego ideal the loss of your um the way you aspire to be the way you wanted to be so that is lost as well so the losses are not only external I lost time I lost this I lost money but the losses are heavily internal you have lost the most important thing yourself this is a grief that cannot be described and um it’s a multiple multiple mourning
21. 12:32 over a discarded delusional um idealized self over the narcissist um over the fantasy and so on. Now we are coming to the main issue that I mentioned before. When you break up with a narcissist, you’re a mother who is giving up on her child never to be seen again. It’s not just any child. It’s not an 18year-old child or 21 year old child. Even that is difficult as a mother. You know, the emptiness nest, the child leaves the house. Initially, there’s relief and jubilation, but then over a discarded delusional um idealized self over the narcissist um over the fantasy and so on. Now we are coming to the main issue that I mentioned before. When you break up with a narcissist, you’re a mother who is giving up on her child never to be seen again. It’s not just any child. It’s not an 18year-old child or 21 year old child. Even that is difficult as a mother. You know, the emptiness nest, the child leaves the house. Initially, there’s relief and jubilation, but then
22. 13:07 you begin to miss the child and you’re sad. That’s not this kind of child. It’s an infant. It’s a toddler. It’s a 2-year-old. Breaking up with a narcissist is like a mother who has to give up on her two-year-old child. It’s like giving someone up for adoption, you know. And at the same time, you’re losing your mother. You’ve had a second chance with the narcissist, a second chance at a childhood that is replete with unconditional love and that had evoked in you self love to the point of self- you begin to miss the child and you’re sad. That’s not this kind of child. It’s an infant. It’s a toddler. It’s a 2-year-old. Breaking up with a narcissist is like a mother who has to give up on her two-year-old child. It’s like giving someone up for adoption, you know. And at the same time, you’re losing your mother. You’ve had a second chance with the narcissist, a second chance at a childhood that is replete with unconditional love and that had evoked in you self love to the point of self-
23. 13:43 infatuation. It has been an addictive experience and you miss it. And you also miss this mother figure who loved you unconditionally, who cla claimed to have loved you unconditionally. There’s a sense of betrayal of course. So this these are these are the two pillars of the grief after narcissistic abuse. You’re not only losing an intimate partner, you’re not only losing a fantasy, you’re not only losing a relationship, you’re not only losing yourself, but but you’re losing your infatuation. It has been an addictive experience and you miss it. And you also miss this mother figure who loved you unconditionally, who cla claimed to have loved you unconditionally. There’s a sense of betrayal of course. So this these are these are the two pillars of the grief after narcissistic abuse. You’re not only losing an intimate partner, you’re not only losing a fantasy, you’re not only losing a relationship, you’re not only losing yourself, but but you’re losing your
24. 14:13 child and your mother simultaneously. Imagine this happens in real life. Imagine in real life you have a 2-year-old child and your mother whom you love, your mother who loves you unconditionally and your two-year-old child, they both die on the same day because that’s exactly what happens when you break up with a narcissist. Do you think you can recover from this easily? Do you think it’s a minor form of grief or mourning? Do you think it’s the equivalent of breaking up with uh you know with your boyfriend or child and your mother simultaneously. Imagine this happens in real life. Imagine in real life you have a 2-year-old child and your mother whom you love, your mother who loves you unconditionally and your two-year-old child, they both die on the same day because that’s exactly what happens when you break up with a narcissist. Do you think you can recover from this easily? Do you think it’s a minor form of grief or mourning? Do you think it’s the equivalent of breaking up with uh you know with your boyfriend or
25. 14:50 girlfriend? It’s not remotely similar even. It’s not remotely similar. Of course, every every breakup is a heartbreak. No question about it. But this particular breakup is a breakup with yourself, [snorts] a breakup with your child, a breakup with your mother, a breakup with everything you knew, a breakup with your dreams, a breakup with your hopes, a breakup. It’s a breakup with absolutely everything. It’s a total loss. Total loss. And of course, the mourning and grieving um equivalent as deep. girlfriend? It’s not remotely similar even. It’s not remotely similar. Of course, every every breakup is a heartbreak. No question about it. But this particular breakup is a breakup with yourself, [snorts] a breakup with your child, a breakup with your mother, a breakup with everything you knew, a breakup with your dreams, a breakup with your hopes, a breakup. It’s a breakup with absolutely everything. It’s a total loss. Total loss. And of course, the mourning and grieving um equivalent as deep.
26. 15:23 Above all, I think you grieve the loss of innocence. In the wake of the of narcissistic abuse, you can never ever be innocent again. You can never really trust people again. You can convince yourself to trust them. You can even trust them to some extent, but it will always be to some extent. You will always be guarded and will always be reserved. You will always um you always recoil when you’re offered a vision or a dream or a plan. You will always be so something has changed in you. Something is lost forever. This Above all, I think you grieve the loss of innocence. In the wake of the of narcissistic abuse, you can never ever be innocent again. You can never really trust people again. You can convince yourself to trust them. You can even trust them to some extent, but it will always be to some extent. You will always be guarded and will always be reserved. You will always um you always recoil when you’re offered a vision or a dream or a plan. You will always be so something has changed in you. Something is lost forever. This
27. 16:07 innocence, innocence is not naivity. It’s not the same. Being naive is not being innocent. Being naive is being an idiot. Being innocent is something completely different. Being innocent has to do with the 10 sentences that I read you yesterday. Being innocent is about assuming that most people are good and that the world basically is not out to get you. This is no longer true in the wake of narcissistic abuse. You’re terrified of people. You’re terrified of of reality. You’re terrified of the innocence, innocence is not naivity. It’s not the same. Being naive is not being innocent. Being naive is being an idiot. Being innocent is something completely different. Being innocent has to do with the 10 sentences that I read you yesterday. Being innocent is about assuming that most people are good and that the world basically is not out to get you. This is no longer true in the wake of narcissistic abuse. You’re terrified of people. You’re terrified of of reality. You’re terrified of the
28. 16:34 world. And most of all, you can no longer trust yourself at all. There’s no selfrust. You have led yourself into this trap and you are not your own best friend. You feel as though you have you backstabbed yourself. You feel as you have as if you have betrayed yourself. So who’s left? You can’t trust other people. You can’t trust yourself. You can’t trust reality or you hate reality. You can’t really believe in any new fantasy or dream or plan. What is left? I mean life loses its taste, its world. And most of all, you can no longer trust yourself at all. There’s no selfrust. You have led yourself into this trap and you are not your own best friend. You feel as though you have you backstabbed yourself. You feel as you have as if you have betrayed yourself. So who’s left? You can’t trust other people. You can’t trust yourself. You can’t trust reality or you hate reality. You can’t really believe in any new fantasy or dream or plan. What is left? I mean life loses its taste, its
29. 17:12 meaning, its drive. You’re no longer motivated. You are, in other words, in a state of depression. Part of the mourning and grieving in the wake of narcissistic abuse is exactly this, a form of depression. kind of diste the clinical word kind of diste um background background depression like it’s you’re down feel down all the time. Um so there’s multiple mourning and you’re orphaned. You’re an orphan. You lost your mother and you’re you’re a bererieved mother because you lost your meaning, its drive. You’re no longer motivated. You are, in other words, in a state of depression. Part of the mourning and grieving in the wake of narcissistic abuse is exactly this, a form of depression. kind of diste the clinical word kind of diste um background background depression like it’s you’re down feel down all the time. Um so there’s multiple mourning and you’re orphaned. You’re an orphan. You lost your mother and you’re you’re a bererieved mother because you lost your
30. 17:56 child. You lost yourself. You lost trust. You lost ability to interact with reality. And you need now to recover and to heal before it’s too late, before these losses are cemented and you’re no longer able to reverse these processes because it’s a use it or lose it situation. the longer you allow it to persist, the less likely you are to be able to reverse what’s happening. When I review the literature on uh abuse um healing and recovery from especially traumatic abuse or traumatizing abuse child. You lost yourself. You lost trust. You lost ability to interact with reality. And you need now to recover and to heal before it’s too late, before these losses are cemented and you’re no longer able to reverse these processes because it’s a use it or lose it situation. the longer you allow it to persist, the less likely you are to be able to reverse what’s happening. When I review the literature on uh abuse um healing and recovery from especially traumatic abuse or traumatizing abuse
31. 18:43 such as narcissistic abuse, I discovered that there are nine nine strands, nine overriding themes and I call it the ninefold path because I want to sound like a Zen Buddhist or a tauist. Why? because you know they’re wise people and I want to be considered wise. Never make this mistake. So um the nine-fold path and I will this is what I’m going to discuss momentarily but before we go there I would like to discuss mention briefly the issue of trauma. You can expose 10 people to the to an such as narcissistic abuse, I discovered that there are nine nine strands, nine overriding themes and I call it the ninefold path because I want to sound like a Zen Buddhist or a tauist. Why? because you know they’re wise people and I want to be considered wise. Never make this mistake. So um the nine-fold path and I will this is what I’m going to discuss momentarily but before we go there I would like to discuss mention briefly the issue of trauma. You can expose 10 people to the to an
32. 19:23 identical event to an identical process to an identical relationship. Only one of them would be traumatized and nine would walk away. identical event to an identical process to an identical relationship. Only one of them would be traumatized and nine would walk away.