No Contact with NON-abusive Parents, Family? (The Nerve with

No Contact with NON-abusive Parents, Family? (The Nerve with Maureen Callahan)

Summary

Professor Sam Vaknin discussed the distinction between legitimate no-contact as a response to abuse and estrangement driven by narcissism, atomization, and hypervigilance, arguing that many who cut family ties for minor disagreements are enacting a form of externalized aggression. He explained how projected splitting, projection, and projective identification in dysfunctional parents create the golden child and scapegoat roles, which often persist into adulthood and shape sibling dynamics and identity. Vaknin recommended reconstruction and integration over permanent estrangement—advocating empathy, realistic understanding of parental limitations, and reconciliation where possible, while acknowledging exceptions for genuine abuse. No Contact with NON-abusive Parents, Family? (The Nerve with Maureen Callahan)

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December 17, 2025

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00:00 to flare up. So, we decided who better to bring in for a chat about how to navigate this stuff than um The Nerve’s favorite psychology expert, Professor Sam Vaknan. Sam, welcome back to The Nerve. >> Thank you for having me. Good to see you again, Maren. >> It’s good to see you. Where are you coming to us from? >> Don’t ask. I’ve been travel over over traveling. I’m exactly >> Oh, o overt traveling sounds like such a sophisticated problem. >> Yes, indeed. to flare up. So, we decided who better to bring in for a chat about how to navigate this stuff than um The Nerve’s favorite psychology expert, Professor Sam Vaknan. Sam, welcome back to The Nerve. >> Thank you for having me. Good to see you again, Maren. >> It’s good to see you. Where are you coming to us from? >> Don’t ask. I’ve been travel over over traveling. I’m exactly >> Oh, o overt traveling sounds like such a sophisticated problem. >> Yes, indeed.
00:31 >> So, we originally were going to tackle uh the golden child versus the scapegoat, which is a very common family dynamic, and we will do it today. But before that, I wanted to touch on um or rather really talk to you about this concept of uh going no contact with family members who have agrieved you. We’re not talking about going no contact with family members who have abused you, who have really either sexually, physically, emotionally, psychologically really abused you. No, we’re talking going no contact because >> So, we originally were going to tackle uh the golden child versus the scapegoat, which is a very common family dynamic, and we will do it today. But before that, I wanted to touch on um or rather really talk to you about this concept of uh going no contact with family members who have agrieved you. We’re not talking about going no contact with family members who have abused you, who have really either sexually, physically, emotionally, psychologically really abused you. No, we’re talking going no contact because
01:08 you don’t like the way somebody voted. You don’t like the way somebody get doles out advice. You know, it could be minor things. Now, this video has gone viral. We’re gonna we’re going to show it. Uh for anyone who hasn’t seen it, this is again one of the darkest forces at work today. One Oprah Winfrey moderating a room full of people in New York City who say that they’ve gone no contact with their family for years and they’re happier for it. We’re going to take a look and then Sam, I’m gonna ask you don’t like the way somebody voted. You don’t like the way somebody get doles out advice. You know, it could be minor things. Now, this video has gone viral. We’re gonna we’re going to show it. Uh for anyone who hasn’t seen it, this is again one of the darkest forces at work today. One Oprah Winfrey moderating a room full of people in New York City who say that they’ve gone no contact with their family for years and they’re happier for it. We’re going to take a look and then Sam, I’m gonna ask
01:40 you to get into it. Here we go. So maybe you all can relate in some way to this growing phenomenon known as going no contact. That’s when a person cuts off ties to someone in their family. A Cornell University study now shows that almost onethird of Americans are onethird are actively estranged from a family member. Sam, what do you make of this and what do you think explains the uh the way in which this has caught fire among the general population? >> I coined the phrase no contact actually you to get into it. Here we go. So maybe you all can relate in some way to this growing phenomenon known as going no contact. That’s when a person cuts off ties to someone in their family. A Cornell University study now shows that almost onethird of Americans are onethird are actively estranged from a family member. Sam, what do you make of this and what do you think explains the uh the way in which this has caught fire among the general population? >> I coined the phrase no contact actually
02:25 in the 1980s to describe >> to describe a set of 27 strategies um that apply to a situation where where you have an abuser as a family member. M >> so these are 27 strategies are pretty complex. I will not go into all this. At no point did I or anyone else imply that no contact is applicable to situations where you simply disagree with someone or you don’t feel comfortable with someone or so. We make a distinction in clinical psychology or family psychology. We make a distinction in the 1980s to describe >> to describe a set of 27 strategies um that apply to a situation where where you have an abuser as a family member. M >> so these are 27 strategies are pretty complex. I will not go into all this. At no point did I or anyone else imply that no contact is applicable to situations where you simply disagree with someone or you don’t feel comfortable with someone or so. We make a distinction in clinical psychology or family psychology. We make a distinction
03:01 between no contact, which is a valid mainstream strategy nowadays, mainstream strategy for coping with abuse, and estrangement, which is a completely different ballgame. >> What’s the difference? Estrangement is when you are unwilling to invest the necessary resources in order to maintain a relationship or at the very least an interaction with a family me member. So, and it doesn’t have to be a blood family member, could be a spouse, could even be a boyfriend or girlfriend, someone in an in an intimate setting. So between no contact, which is a valid mainstream strategy nowadays, mainstream strategy for coping with abuse, and estrangement, which is a completely different ballgame. >> What’s the difference? Estrangement is when you are unwilling to invest the necessary resources in order to maintain a relationship or at the very least an interaction with a family me member. So, and it doesn’t have to be a blood family member, could be a spouse, could even be a boyfriend or girlfriend, someone in an in an intimate setting. So
03:44 where intimacy is involved we have estrangement. >> So estrangement can is there something that somehow feels more valid about estrangement versus no contact? Is there something that feels less finite about estrangement than than no contact? >> Estrangement is a form of self indulge in um it’s a form of self-indulging oneself. It’s a form of entitlement in effect. And in this sense, ironically, estrangement is narcissistic. It’s when you decide that um the minimal investment necessary in order to where intimacy is involved we have estrangement. >> So estrangement can is there something that somehow feels more valid about estrangement versus no contact? Is there something that feels less finite about estrangement than than no contact? >> Estrangement is a form of self indulge in um it’s a form of self-indulging oneself. It’s a form of entitlement in effect. And in this sense, ironically, estrangement is narcissistic. It’s when you decide that um the minimal investment necessary in order to
04:23 maintain a frictionless environment where you are able to accommodate other people’s points of view, other people’s behavioral modes, other people’s quirks and frailties and vulnerabilities and weaknesses and demands on your time. and other resources. >> When you decide that all these are too much for you, that you’re entitled to special treatment, >> that um therefore you are superior morally and ethically to other people, >> and that um any form of compromise is maintain a frictionless environment where you are able to accommodate other people’s points of view, other people’s behavioral modes, other people’s quirks and frailties and vulnerabilities and weaknesses and demands on your time. and other resources. >> When you decide that all these are too much for you, that you’re entitled to special treatment, >> that um therefore you are superior morally and ethically to other people, >> and that um any form of compromise is
04:59 the equivalent of a surrender. So estrangement usually involves a power play. It’s usually it’s a form of a power play >> where where you withdraw, you disengage as as a manipulative tactic as as a way to exert and exhibit power to show how strong you are, how superior you are. >> Interesting. So what’s going on with these what has become ex not only extremely acceptable but laudable uh means of of disengagement. Um I think I think there’s a sort of um it’s a coalescing of two distinct uh things the equivalent of a surrender. So estrangement usually involves a power play. It’s usually it’s a form of a power play >> where where you withdraw, you disengage as as a manipulative tactic as as a way to exert and exhibit power to show how strong you are, how superior you are. >> Interesting. So what’s going on with these what has become ex not only extremely acceptable but laudable uh means of of disengagement. Um I think I think there’s a sort of um it’s a coalescing of two distinct uh things
05:43 that have risen in the culture I think to a dangerous degree. One the culture of narcissism. I think it’s been amplified by social media and finding your hives and your bubbles and living in there. And then it’s political. And I really think this is just my opinion from what I observe. The election of Trump in 2016 really gave rise to this idea of no contact. That there are virtue signalers who believe to have any relationship with a family member who may have voted for Trump is to uh sully oneself to be that have risen in the culture I think to a dangerous degree. One the culture of narcissism. I think it’s been amplified by social media and finding your hives and your bubbles and living in there. And then it’s political. And I really think this is just my opinion from what I observe. The election of Trump in 2016 really gave rise to this idea of no contact. That there are virtue signalers who believe to have any relationship with a family member who may have voted for Trump is to uh sully oneself to be
06:20 emboldening uh you know racism. He’s Hitler basically. He’s Hitler, right? And so you see, at least in America, you know, I read these venerated advice columnists who’ve been syndicated for years who have bought into this and who promulgate this idea. They’ll get letters from people saying, “This Thanksgiving, you know, my MAGA voting uncle is going to be there and I just don’t think I can sit at the same table.” And they’re told, you know, you’re absolutely right. You’re emboldening uh you know racism. He’s Hitler basically. He’s Hitler, right? And so you see, at least in America, you know, I read these venerated advice columnists who’ve been syndicated for years who have bought into this and who promulgate this idea. They’ll get letters from people saying, “This Thanksgiving, you know, my MAGA voting uncle is going to be there and I just don’t think I can sit at the same table.” And they’re told, you know, you’re absolutely right. You’re
06:44 defending democracy and protecting your own moral center, so go do it. I mean, Sam, can you talk about this? There is a strand of narcissism known as pro-social or communal narcissism where where self-indulgence, selfishness um and entitlement are cloaked, they are disguised as something commendable socially. >> Yes. >> Socially and otherwise. >> And it is a form of of narcissism. But I think there’s a there are other trends at play which >> which preceded even the rise of defending democracy and protecting your own moral center, so go do it. I mean, Sam, can you talk about this? There is a strand of narcissism known as pro-social or communal narcissism where where self-indulgence, selfishness um and entitlement are cloaked, they are disguised as something commendable socially. >> Yes. >> Socially and otherwise. >> And it is a form of of narcissism. But I think there’s a there are other trends at play which >> which preceded even the rise of
07:25 narcissism the recent rise of narcissism. And I think the foremost amongst which is automization >> atomization. >> Atomization where where people have been rendered self-sufficient by technology. >> They don’t need other people anymore. >> Oh yes. Yes. >> And so other people are perceived as a burden. >> Yes. Because they have needs and wants. >> Yes. Because they have needs and wants and demands and expectations even. >> Yeah. >> Even even unexpressed expectations. The narcissism the recent rise of narcissism. And I think the foremost amongst which is automization >> atomization. >> Atomization where where people have been rendered self-sufficient by technology. >> They don’t need other people anymore. >> Oh yes. Yes. >> And so other people are perceived as a burden. >> Yes. Because they have needs and wants. >> Yes. Because they have needs and wants and demands and expectations even. >> Yeah. >> Even even unexpressed expectations. The
07:57 their very presence is perceived as intolerable and burdensome. >> Yes. >> And there was a rise in in what I call malignant tolerance. >> Oh yeah. Tell us about that. It’s it’s um it’s a situation where any speech act and any behavior and any choice and any decision >> can be construed as form of injury as as a slide. >> Now this is this is a clinical term. This has a clinical term. It’s known as hypervigilance. >> Narcissists scan the room. They scan other people. their very presence is perceived as intolerable and burdensome. >> Yes. >> And there was a rise in in what I call malignant tolerance. >> Oh yeah. Tell us about that. It’s it’s um it’s a situation where any speech act and any behavior and any choice and any decision >> can be construed as form of injury as as a slide. >> Now this is this is a clinical term. This has a clinical term. It’s known as hypervigilance. >> Narcissists scan the room. They scan other people.
08:36 They’re always on the alert and they interpret innocuous behaviors and and innocent uh acts of speech. They interpret them as deliberate attacks. They become very defensive and very aggressive and possibly at times violent. And so hypervigilance is a key clinical feature in pathological narcissism. And I think people have elevated hypervigilance and rendered it an ideology. They have idealized. >> Yes, it’s a religion. >> It’s a religion. They’ve idealized it. They’ve idolized it. And they’ve They’re always on the alert and they interpret innocuous behaviors and and innocent uh acts of speech. They interpret them as deliberate attacks. They become very defensive and very aggressive and possibly at times violent. And so hypervigilance is a key clinical feature in pathological narcissism. And I think people have elevated hypervigilance and rendered it an ideology. They have idealized. >> Yes, it’s a religion. >> It’s a religion. They’ve idealized it. They’ve idolized it. And they’ve
09:16 rendered it an organizing and explanatory principle of social relations. And so hypervigilance has two sides. On the one hand, it inhibits speech. Like there are things you can’t say, things which are which are taboo. And if you do say them, you’re being injurious. You’re being immoral and amoral. You’re being an a-hole and worse and so on so forth, you’re being maybe Hitler. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is political correctness and all these manifestations of of this rendered it an organizing and explanatory principle of social relations. And so hypervigilance has two sides. On the one hand, it inhibits speech. Like there are things you can’t say, things which are which are taboo. And if you do say them, you’re being injurious. You’re being immoral and amoral. You’re being an a-hole and worse and so on so forth, you’re being maybe Hitler. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this is political correctness and all these manifestations of of this
09:48 facet of malignant tolerance. >> And the other facet of malignant tolerance is selfisolation. Because if you are attuned all the time to possible slightes and insults and attacks and so on, you’re going to end up developing paranoid ideation. >> Mhm. >> And then you’re going to isolate yourself in order to minimize the surface of injury, the surface of attack so to speak. So you’re going to isolate yourself. Now initially in the 1960s and 70s and 80s it was very difficult to facet of malignant tolerance. >> And the other facet of malignant tolerance is selfisolation. Because if you are attuned all the time to possible slightes and insults and attacks and so on, you’re going to end up developing paranoid ideation. >> Mhm. >> And then you’re going to isolate yourself in order to minimize the surface of injury, the surface of attack so to speak. So you’re going to isolate yourself. Now initially in the 1960s and 70s and 80s it was very difficult to
10:21 isolate yourself because the interdependence between between people was huge. >> Mhm. >> But nowadays with modern technologies each and every one of us can be entirely self-sufficient. Like you could stay in your apartment for the rest of your life never ever exit the door. You could be agorophobic basically and survive well into your 90s without any >> you know. But Sam, this is so fascinating. Not to cut you off, but you know, we just emerged from that very thing. We just emerged from COVID. It isolate yourself because the interdependence between between people was huge. >> Mhm. >> But nowadays with modern technologies each and every one of us can be entirely self-sufficient. Like you could stay in your apartment for the rest of your life never ever exit the door. You could be agorophobic basically and survive well into your 90s without any >> you know. But Sam, this is so fascinating. Not to cut you off, but you know, we just emerged from that very thing. We just emerged from COVID. It
10:52 was the blink of an eye when we were all in lockdown. And the profound isolation that we all came to feel, one would think once those doors and windows were open would have brought about a renewed appreciation for our interdependence, for our need for each other, for all of the benefits of socializing. And instead, it seems people have retreated even further into their corners. And as you said, with these emerging technologies, now we’ve got chat bots. We’ve got debates going on in the culture as to whether human was the blink of an eye when we were all in lockdown. And the profound isolation that we all came to feel, one would think once those doors and windows were open would have brought about a renewed appreciation for our interdependence, for our need for each other, for all of the benefits of socializing. And instead, it seems people have retreated even further into their corners. And as you said, with these emerging technologies, now we’ve got chat bots. We’ve got debates going on in the culture as to whether human
11:25 relationships with either AI or robots, be they platonic or sexual, are going to be legitimate. I mean, I I don’t know that there’s any dialing this back before it’s too late. I mean, what do you see? What do you see coming down the road? Well, first of all, the underlying supposition, underlying assumption that human beings are social animals is not new. It dates back to Aristotle who called called people zon politicon, the social animal. >> Yeah. >> And yet it seems that given the chance relationships with either AI or robots, be they platonic or sexual, are going to be legitimate. I mean, I I don’t know that there’s any dialing this back before it’s too late. I mean, what do you see? What do you see coming down the road? Well, first of all, the underlying supposition, underlying assumption that human beings are social animals is not new. It dates back to Aristotle who called called people zon politicon, the social animal. >> Yeah. >> And yet it seems that given the chance
12:02 people avoid each other with elacrity and and cheer and joy. Given the chance, people isolate themselves. The default seems to be lonely, aloneeness, not togetherness. It seems that collective action, collaboration, cooperation, all these things, pulling resources, sharing, all these things were forced upon us by the exigencies of scarcity and famine and war and and by the lack of appropriate technology. Having been given the chance nowadays to avoid other people, Pew Center studies show that at least half of all people people avoid each other with elacrity and and cheer and joy. Given the chance, people isolate themselves. The default seems to be lonely, aloneeness, not togetherness. It seems that collective action, collaboration, cooperation, all these things, pulling resources, sharing, all these things were forced upon us by the exigencies of scarcity and famine and war and and by the lack of appropriate technology. Having been given the chance nowadays to avoid other people, Pew Center studies show that at least half of all people
12:47 make this choice. 42% of adults, for example, make this make this choice. >> But is it a chicken or the egg thing, Sam? you know, without modern technology, without the sort of uh substitute interaction with people online or with AI or with chat bots, what have you, would people be so easily able to default to that aloneeness? >> I subscribe to the view that technology is responsive. It is not a driver of change. It is responsive to change. So I think what preceded technology was the need to be alone which has not been make this choice. 42% of adults, for example, make this make this choice. >> But is it a chicken or the egg thing, Sam? you know, without modern technology, without the sort of uh substitute interaction with people online or with AI or with chat bots, what have you, would people be so easily able to default to that aloneeness? >> I subscribe to the view that technology is responsive. It is not a driver of change. It is responsive to change. So I think what preceded technology was the need to be alone which has not been
13:24 satisfied for thousands of years and finally we had breakthroughs which allowed us to be alone and then we embraced these technologies. Take take for example the following fact the pandemic is over. >> Yeah. >> People refuse to return to the office and when >> No, I would push back on that though because that is not a voluntary act. You have a boss. You have demands. You are told my time is annexed by you because I pay you. And so you’re going to commute 2 hours a day and like your life is a satisfied for thousands of years and finally we had breakthroughs which allowed us to be alone and then we embraced these technologies. Take take for example the following fact the pandemic is over. >> Yeah. >> People refuse to return to the office and when >> No, I would push back on that though because that is not a voluntary act. You have a boss. You have demands. You are told my time is annexed by you because I pay you. And so you’re going to commute 2 hours a day and like your life is a
13:56 misery. And we’ve all easier. >> That’s not what the studies show. When we ask people why do you refuse to to return to the office? >> They say because I don’t want to see my colleagues. >> Well, that also I would push back on. That’s forced. like I don’t get to choose my colleagues, you know, and uh it’s it’s different than a a family or it’s different than friends who you choose. Right. >> Exactly. But they don’t have family. They don’t have family and friends. In misery. And we’ve all easier. >> That’s not what the studies show. When we ask people why do you refuse to to return to the office? >> They say because I don’t want to see my colleagues. >> Well, that also I would push back on. That’s forced. like I don’t get to choose my colleagues, you know, and uh it’s it’s different than a a family or it’s different than friends who you choose. Right. >> Exactly. But they don’t have family. They don’t have family and friends. In
14:22 1980, a typical American according to studies had 9.8 good friends. >> Mhm. The question in the study, the studies at the time was um if you had a secret or a problem, how many people would you share it with? >> And the answer was on average 9.8 people. >> The number today is 0.9. So there’s been a decline not only in forced socializing like in the workplace, >> right? But there is a has been a enormous decline in voluntary socializing. People are not having friends anymore and they don’t want to 1980, a typical American according to studies had 9.8 good friends. >> Mhm. The question in the study, the studies at the time was um if you had a secret or a problem, how many people would you share it with? >> And the answer was on average 9.8 people. >> The number today is 0.9. So there’s been a decline not only in forced socializing like in the workplace, >> right? But there is a has been a enormous decline in voluntary socializing. People are not having friends anymore and they don’t want to
15:04 see their families. They disguise it. They they create ideologies and they create theories and they create you know they are disguising it. A strangement is simply an simply an indication of the underlying psychology of alone is good. alone is empowering. Al when I’m alone, I can shape my environment and my life to fit me snugly like handing love. But when I’m surrounded by people, you know, they push back. They It requires an investment of energy and and resources and it’s aggravating. It’s irritating. I see their families. They disguise it. They they create ideologies and they create theories and they create you know they are disguising it. A strangement is simply an simply an indication of the underlying psychology of alone is good. alone is empowering. Al when I’m alone, I can shape my environment and my life to fit me snugly like handing love. But when I’m surrounded by people, you know, they push back. They It requires an investment of energy and and resources and it’s aggravating. It’s irritating. I
15:47 don’t want I don’t want any of this. There is of course also another trend and that is a trend of infantilization. >> Yeah. >> People are immature. Seriously. >> Yes. Yes. What is that about? >> Well, >> does that dovetail with the narcissism? Just the refusal to >> uh brookke anybody else’s needs or wants is equal to if not at times superseding one’s own. >> It’s it has to do with narcissism. Of course, one of the key elements in pathological narcissism is um arrested don’t want I don’t want any of this. There is of course also another trend and that is a trend of infantilization. >> Yeah. >> People are immature. Seriously. >> Yes. Yes. What is that about? >> Well, >> does that dovetail with the narcissism? Just the refusal to >> uh brookke anybody else’s needs or wants is equal to if not at times superseding one’s own. >> It’s it has to do with narcissism. Of course, one of the key elements in pathological narcissism is um arrested
16:21 development or stunted development. >> These people are basically children. Narcissist children. >> We’ve discussed it >> in previous occasions. But >> it’s not only it’s not only narcissists who are immature or regressed into an infant state. >> Mhm. >> It’s it’s vast swaths of the population, I would say. And I think the reason is that we have it easy. We don’t have to work to produce our food. >> Yeah. >> We work a few hours a day. I mean, development or stunted development. >> These people are basically children. Narcissist children. >> We’ve discussed it >> in previous occasions. But >> it’s not only it’s not only narcissists who are immature or regressed into an infant state. >> Mhm. >> It’s it’s vast swaths of the population, I would say. And I think the reason is that we have it easy. We don’t have to work to produce our food. >> Yeah. >> We work a few hours a day. I mean,
16:56 people used to work 16 hours a day. >> If you’re a white collar professional, you work you can >> mostly if you’re white collar, but yeah. I mean, people on the lower levels of of the socio economic ladder have to work several jobs in order to make ends meet. That’s that’s quite accurate. >> But the the the ethos the ideal the aspiration is to work less. Whereas in previous periods in history the ideal was to work more. The work dignified you. Your job dignified you. people used to work 16 hours a day. >> If you’re a white collar professional, you work you can >> mostly if you’re white collar, but yeah. I mean, people on the lower levels of of the socio economic ladder have to work several jobs in order to make ends meet. That’s that’s quite accurate. >> But the the the ethos the ideal the aspiration is to work less. Whereas in previous periods in history the ideal was to work more. The work dignified you. Your job dignified you.
17:32 Your job defined you. Your identity was your job >> to this very day in Japan for example. But uh nowadays it’s it’s you know I want to work less. I want to have more leisure. I want to you know I want to entertainment has become the predominant feature of modern life. Not erudition not hard work and so on. Now I’m not expressing an opinion here. I’m not saying it’s bad or good. >> Mhm. >> But these are the facts. >> Mhm. >> So when we look at the lives of adults Your job defined you. Your identity was your job >> to this very day in Japan for example. But uh nowadays it’s it’s you know I want to work less. I want to have more leisure. I want to you know I want to entertainment has become the predominant feature of modern life. Not erudition not hard work and so on. Now I’m not expressing an opinion here. I’m not saying it’s bad or good. >> Mhm. >> But these are the facts. >> Mhm. >> So when we look at the lives of adults
18:02 nowadays >> Mhm. It’s very difficult to tell them apart from let’s say adolescents if not children. Yeah. >> Yes. >> And this is not a new observation. This started in the 70s and they coined the phrase >> the mid decade >> the mid decade Peter Pan syndrome and then they coined the phrase piraus which means eternal adolescent or pa for for a woman. And so this is not a new observation. And regressive infantilization of society means that you’re lot less likely to enjoy nowadays >> Mhm. It’s very difficult to tell them apart from let’s say adolescents if not children. Yeah. >> Yes. >> And this is not a new observation. This started in the 70s and they coined the phrase >> the mid decade >> the mid decade Peter Pan syndrome and then they coined the phrase piraus which means eternal adolescent or pa for for a woman. And so this is not a new observation. And regressive infantilization of society means that you’re lot less likely to enjoy
18:40 interactions with other people because children are children are pretty soypistic. Children are self-focused. Their empathy is not welldeveloped. They children are incapable of cooperating with other children on a sustained basis. >> Children are high high conflict. They’re antagonistic. >> Mhm. And children basically run walk away or run away if you don’t comply with their wishes and don’t meet their expectations and don’t you know so we see these infantile behavior patterns interactions with other people because children are children are pretty soypistic. Children are self-focused. Their empathy is not welldeveloped. They children are incapable of cooperating with other children on a sustained basis. >> Children are high high conflict. They’re antagonistic. >> Mhm. And children basically run walk away or run away if you don’t comply with their wishes and don’t meet their expectations and don’t you know so we see these infantile behavior patterns
19:15 coupled with automization coupled with technological empowerment coupled with with um with self-sufficiency coupled with all these things narcissism I mean put all of these together and you end up having a situation where we glorify and glamorize the alowneness the state of being alone. I’m not saying loneliness because loneliness is a reaction to being alone. >> Yes, >> loneliness is a psychological reaction to being alone and it’s a negative reaction like if you don’t >> it’s a negative one and it’s a it’s a coupled with automization coupled with technological empowerment coupled with with um with self-sufficiency coupled with all these things narcissism I mean put all of these together and you end up having a situation where we glorify and glamorize the alowneness the state of being alone. I’m not saying loneliness because loneliness is a reaction to being alone. >> Yes, >> loneliness is a psychological reaction to being alone and it’s a negative reaction like if you don’t >> it’s a negative one and it’s a it’s a
19:45 predictor of early mortality more so than a lot of other true physical ailments. And I do think, >> you know, you said you’re not saying whether it’s bad or good. I think it’s a force for bad. I think it’s a force for darkness. And I think the likes of Oprah Winfrey standing up there and talking to millions of people and saying, “Hey, this is a basically underscoring that this is a valid choice. That if somebody in your life is just annoying you, somebody who has earned a real place in predictor of early mortality more so than a lot of other true physical ailments. And I do think, >> you know, you said you’re not saying whether it’s bad or good. I think it’s a force for bad. I think it’s a force for darkness. And I think the likes of Oprah Winfrey standing up there and talking to millions of people and saying, “Hey, this is a basically underscoring that this is a valid choice. That if somebody in your life is just annoying you, somebody who has earned a real place in
20:10 your life is annoying you, the best thing to do is just cut them off like a useless limb.” You know, I think it’s an extremely dark message that is being swallowed whole by a population that’s been narotized in this way. Um, we’ll we’ll talk about this more at length, I’m sure, but now that the holidays are truly upon us, I wanted to get to a sibling dynamic that is extremely common. We’ve gotten a lot of emails about this, and it is the it is the golden child versus the scapegoat, the your life is annoying you, the best thing to do is just cut them off like a useless limb.” You know, I think it’s an extremely dark message that is being swallowed whole by a population that’s been narotized in this way. Um, we’ll we’ll talk about this more at length, I’m sure, but now that the holidays are truly upon us, I wanted to get to a sibling dynamic that is extremely common. We’ve gotten a lot of emails about this, and it is the it is the golden child versus the scapegoat, the
20:41 one or both parents anointing one child, the good one, the other child the bad one. And sometimes these two roles flip. It’s kinetic. It’s dynamic. One of my favorite depictions of this is in the 1955 film East of Eden. It’s a Cain and Abel story adapted from the John Steinbeck novel. James Dean plays Cal, the scapegoat, and I forget the actor who plays Aaron, you know, cuz it’s James Dean’s movie. Uh, but he’s the good one. And so we’re going to show a clip of the James Dean character one or both parents anointing one child, the good one, the other child the bad one. And sometimes these two roles flip. It’s kinetic. It’s dynamic. One of my favorite depictions of this is in the 1955 film East of Eden. It’s a Cain and Abel story adapted from the John Steinbeck novel. James Dean plays Cal, the scapegoat, and I forget the actor who plays Aaron, you know, cuz it’s James Dean’s movie. Uh, but he’s the good one. And so we’re going to show a clip of the James Dean character
21:17 exploding on the father for his neglect, if not uh just outright um dislike, palpable contempt for for him uh for Cal. Here we go, >> guys. Do we have that sought? Here it goes. >> I don’t know. It’s not my brother’s keeper. >> Where did you go? >> For a ride. >> What did you quarrel about? >> You >> You’re angry about the money. No, >> I’m not angry. I like it. I think it’s great. I’m going to go away. I’m going to take exploding on the father for his neglect, if not uh just outright um dislike, palpable contempt for for him uh for Cal. Here we go, >> guys. Do we have that sought? Here it goes. >> I don’t know. It’s not my brother’s keeper. >> Where did you go? >> For a ride. >> What did you quarrel about? >> You >> You’re angry about the money. No, >> I’m not angry. I like it. I think it’s great. I’m going to go away. I’m going to take
21:55 that money with me and I think I’ll start me a little business just like my mother did. >> What do you know about your mother? >> I know where she is. Know what she is. And I know why she left you. Couldn’t stand it. You didn’t really love her any more than you do me. cuz your goodness, your rightness, you never gave either one of us an inch ever for what you thought was right. You kept on uh forgiving us. You never really loved us. I know why you didn’t love me. Cuz I’m like my mother and you never that money with me and I think I’ll start me a little business just like my mother did. >> What do you know about your mother? >> I know where she is. Know what she is. And I know why she left you. Couldn’t stand it. You didn’t really love her any more than you do me. cuz your goodness, your rightness, you never gave either one of us an inch ever for what you thought was right. You kept on uh forgiving us. You never really loved us. I know why you didn’t love me. Cuz I’m like my mother and you never
22:27 forgave yourself for having loved her, >> right? I not going to forgive him. I’m never going to forgive him. >> Where’s Aaron? He’s with her with his mother. She’s over there in Monteray if you want to know. She owned one of them houses. I took her in there tonight cuz I was jealous. I’ve been jealous all my life. Jealous? I couldn’t even stand it. Tonight, I even tried to buy your love, but now I don’t want it anymore. I can’t use it anymore. >> Don’t talk to your father like that. forgave yourself for having loved her, >> right? I not going to forgive him. I’m never going to forgive him. >> Where’s Aaron? He’s with her with his mother. She’s over there in Monteray if you want to know. She owned one of them houses. I took her in there tonight cuz I was jealous. I’ve been jealous all my life. Jealous? I couldn’t even stand it. Tonight, I even tried to buy your love, but now I don’t want it anymore. I can’t use it anymore. >> Don’t talk to your father like that.
23:17 >> I don’t want any kind of love anymore. >> Such an incredible movie. So Sam, talk to us about how the dynamics of the golden child versus the scapegoat tend to uh what their origins tend to be. I know everything is case by case and family dynamics are often specific, but this is a very very common thing that happens in families. >> Yeah. Uh just for for historical record sake, it’s Richard Dealos, the the other actor. >> Did you just Google that, Sam, to show me up? >> I don’t want any kind of love anymore. >> Such an incredible movie. So Sam, talk to us about how the dynamics of the golden child versus the scapegoat tend to uh what their origins tend to be. I know everything is case by case and family dynamics are often specific, but this is a very very common thing that happens in families. >> Yeah. Uh just for for historical record sake, it’s Richard Dealos, the the other actor. >> Did you just Google that, Sam, to show me up?
23:56 >> No, I’m not I’m not criticizing you. It’s he’s an obscure actor. He’s not like, you know, one >> Oh, is he? Yeah, >> he just he I’ I’ve seen that movie like 20 times, but the guy who plays Aaron always fades in my memory because James Dean is so vivid, you know, and he the emotional shifts in that one scene alone are just wild. But anyway, talk to us. >> Yeah. No, I’m a movie buff. I have like a collection of 25,000 movies. So, >> no, you’re talking my language. >> No, I’m not I’m not criticizing you. It’s he’s an obscure actor. He’s not like, you know, one >> Oh, is he? Yeah, >> he just he I’ I’ve seen that movie like 20 times, but the guy who plays Aaron always fades in my memory because James Dean is so vivid, you know, and he the emotional shifts in that one scene alone are just wild. But anyway, talk to us. >> Yeah. No, I’m a movie buff. I have like a collection of 25,000 movies. So, >> no, you’re talking my language.
24:21 >> Yeah, I love movies. Okay. Um to understand the emergence of scapegoats and golden children in families, we need to um explore two concepts uh which are pretty interesting and important because they apply to other other types of settings in life. >> Okay. >> The first concept is known as role theory. >> Mhm. >> And it says that people allocate roles. When people are in a unit, a social unit, could be a family, could be any any other type of collective, >> friend group, >> Yeah, I love movies. Okay. Um to understand the emergence of scapegoats and golden children in families, we need to um explore two concepts uh which are pretty interesting and important because they apply to other other types of settings in life. >> Okay. >> The first concept is known as role theory. >> Mhm. >> And it says that people allocate roles. When people are in a unit, a social unit, could be a family, could be any any other type of collective, >> friend group,
24:53 >> yeah, whatever, they tend to allocate roles to each other. So in a typical family, you would have the fixer, you would have the re the consiliator, >> you would have the scapegoat, you have the golden child, >> you there are many types of roles allocated to the children and and they’re known as emergent roles. Mhm. >> That is to explain or or to make clear that scapegoat and gold golden child are two possible roles but there are many others. >> Okay. >> Okay. So the second and much more >> yeah, whatever, they tend to allocate roles to each other. So in a typical family, you would have the fixer, you would have the re the consiliator, >> you would have the scapegoat, you have the golden child, >> you there are many types of roles allocated to the children and and they’re known as emergent roles. Mhm. >> That is to explain or or to make clear that scapegoat and gold golden child are two possible roles but there are many others. >> Okay. >> Okay. So the second and much more
25:26 relevant um concept is something that I came up with I coined and it’s projected projected splitting. To understand projected splitting we need to go even further deeper. Mhm. >> And get acquainted with two infantile primitive defense psychological defense mechanisms known as splitting and projection. >> Okay. >> Splitting is simply when you divide the world and everyone in it into all bad and all good, all black and all white. This is known as dichomous thinking. Yeah, >> dichomous thinking. Okay. relevant um concept is something that I came up with I coined and it’s projected projected splitting. To understand projected splitting we need to go even further deeper. Mhm. >> And get acquainted with two infantile primitive defense psychological defense mechanisms known as splitting and projection. >> Okay. >> Splitting is simply when you divide the world and everyone in it into all bad and all good, all black and all white. This is known as dichomous thinking. Yeah, >> dichomous thinking. Okay.
26:02 >> And the other uh element is projection. It’s when there are parts of you that you find uncomfortable, that you reject, that you’re unhappy with, >> rather than confront these parts and integrate them, rather than be honest with yourself, what you do is you attribute them to other people. You say, “It’s not me. They are like that. I’m not like that. They’re like that.” It’s kind of the theory that the thing that the characteristics you may find most >> And the other uh element is projection. It’s when there are parts of you that you find uncomfortable, that you reject, that you’re unhappy with, >> rather than confront these parts and integrate them, rather than be honest with yourself, what you do is you attribute them to other people. You say, “It’s not me. They are like that. I’m not like that. They’re like that.” It’s kind of the theory that the thing that the characteristics you may find most
26:33 grading in others are the ones that you yourself have and either are in denial about them or just cannot look at them. >> Exactly. This is projection. And then you would attribute them to other people and this gives you the right to criticize them to denigrate them to you know because you now have attained the high moral ground. You’re purified. Projection. Projection is an act of purification and purging. >> Okay. Now, combine the two into my new construct of projected splitting. grading in others are the ones that you yourself have and either are in denial about them or just cannot look at them. >> Exactly. This is projection. And then you would attribute them to other people and this gives you the right to criticize them to denigrate them to you know because you now have attained the high moral ground. You’re purified. Projection. Projection is an act of purification and purging. >> Okay. Now, combine the two into my new construct of projected splitting.
27:06 >> Mhm. >> When you combine the two, what do you have? You have a situation where there’s an immature parental figure. >> Mhm. >> Could be a narcissist, could be a depressive uh person, could be but it’s a person who is unable to function, a dysfunctional person. >> Yes. And so I’m going to use she, although it equally applies, of course, to fathers, not only mothers. >> Sure, let’s demonize the women. We got it. >> Yeah. Male a male chauvinist. And you know, >> Mhm. >> When you combine the two, what do you have? You have a situation where there’s an immature parental figure. >> Mhm. >> Could be a narcissist, could be a depressive uh person, could be but it’s a person who is unable to function, a dysfunctional person. >> Yes. And so I’m going to use she, although it equally applies, of course, to fathers, not only mothers. >> Sure, let’s demonize the women. We got it. >> Yeah. Male a male chauvinist. And you know,
27:34 I’m old enough to be Victorian. So if you uh when when you have a mother, for example, who who engages in splitting, she would tend to see some of of her children >> as all good and some of her children as all bad. >> Mhm. But that’s not enough. What she does then she selfsplits. She divides herself into a part that is all good and a part that is all bad. And then she projects these parts onto the children. >> Mhm. >> So there would be a child which would become the receptacle or the container I’m old enough to be Victorian. So if you uh when when you have a mother, for example, who who engages in splitting, she would tend to see some of of her children >> as all good and some of her children as all bad. >> Mhm. But that’s not enough. What she does then she selfsplits. She divides herself into a part that is all good and a part that is all bad. And then she projects these parts onto the children. >> Mhm. >> So there would be a child which would become the receptacle or the container
28:12 of everything that is good in the mother or everything the mother considers to be good. And there would be another child who would become the repository of everything that is bad in the mother or everything the mother dislikes about herself, rejects, denies, you know, hates about herself. >> So there’s splitting, self-splitting and then projecting these parts onto the children. The child who is lucky enough who has won the lottery and got the good parts of the mother becomes the golden child and the child of everything that is good in the mother or everything the mother considers to be good. And there would be another child who would become the repository of everything that is bad in the mother or everything the mother dislikes about herself, rejects, denies, you know, hates about herself. >> So there’s splitting, self-splitting and then projecting these parts onto the children. The child who is lucky enough who has won the lottery and got the good parts of the mother becomes the golden child and the child
28:46 who is the container or repository of the bad parts. That’s a scapegoat. >> You know, I often think though there’s there are a lot of downsides to being the golden child and I think there are a lot of upsides to being the scapegoat. You know, being the scapegoat sort of gives you free reign to be as bad as you want to be. you know, it sort of it liberates a child very early on from these ideas if you’re self-aware enough that there is such a thing as all good or all bad, unless we’re talking about who is the container or repository of the bad parts. That’s a scapegoat. >> You know, I often think though there’s there are a lot of downsides to being the golden child and I think there are a lot of upsides to being the scapegoat. You know, being the scapegoat sort of gives you free reign to be as bad as you want to be. you know, it sort of it liberates a child very early on from these ideas if you’re self-aware enough that there is such a thing as all good or all bad, unless we’re talking about
29:11 psychopathy. Um, why I love the East of Eden uh example is because it’s the father who uh as James Dean rightly points out, the psychology of this book and this movie are so incredible. He the father hates himself for having loved the mother who now the father has moralized and and elevated himself even higher because the mother’s now running a brothel up in Mterrey. So the mother’s a real sinner, right? And he’s got to protect the the golden child from knowing his true origins. But the father psychopathy. Um, why I love the East of Eden uh example is because it’s the father who uh as James Dean rightly points out, the psychology of this book and this movie are so incredible. He the father hates himself for having loved the mother who now the father has moralized and and elevated himself even higher because the mother’s now running a brothel up in Mterrey. So the mother’s a real sinner, right? And he’s got to protect the the golden child from knowing his true origins. But the father
29:40 hates Cal, the seeker. He’s the scapegoat. He wants the truth. He wants to know why he’s so unloved. He’s so unloved because he reminds the father of the mother, but really of the father’s failure for falling in love with someone he thinks is a bad woman. So what I want to ask you is how it can be possible because I think the real damage comes when the siblings themselves are unable to realize the minations at play and that they have been manipulated into believing that one of them is good and hates Cal, the seeker. He’s the scapegoat. He wants the truth. He wants to know why he’s so unloved. He’s so unloved because he reminds the father of the mother, but really of the father’s failure for falling in love with someone he thinks is a bad woman. So what I want to ask you is how it can be possible because I think the real damage comes when the siblings themselves are unable to realize the minations at play and that they have been manipulated into believing that one of them is good and
30:12 one of them is a hopeless case is bad. and how to especially if you’re adult siblings and this perhaps has calcified a golden child and a scapegoat can begin to talk to each other and see each other as actually both victims. >> Yeah. To respond to this elaborate question, we need to introduce the another concept from psychology known as projective identification. >> Mhm. Projected identification simply means that once I’ve projected something onto you, a part of myself that I one of them is a hopeless case is bad. and how to especially if you’re adult siblings and this perhaps has calcified a golden child and a scapegoat can begin to talk to each other and see each other as actually both victims. >> Yeah. To respond to this elaborate question, we need to introduce the another concept from psychology known as projective identification. >> Mhm. Projected identification simply means that once I’ve projected something onto you, a part of myself that I
30:46 dislike and reject, now I attribute it to you. >> I want you to behave this way. I want you to confirm my projection. I want you to comply with my projection. Mhm. >> So it’s not only that the parent allocates roles and it’s not only that the parent um kind of deposits her good side with a golden child, her bad side with a scapegoat. >> Mhm. >> But the parent also wants the children to behave accordingly. >> Mhm. >> So the parents the parent communicates dislike and reject, now I attribute it to you. >> I want you to behave this way. I want you to confirm my projection. I want you to comply with my projection. Mhm. >> So it’s not only that the parent allocates roles and it’s not only that the parent um kind of deposits her good side with a golden child, her bad side with a scapegoat. >> Mhm. >> But the parent also wants the children to behave accordingly. >> Mhm. >> So the parents the parent communicates
31:20 expectations to the child. You are a bad unworthy inadequate child and if you love me you’re going to behave this way. >> Yes, >> you’re going to be a bad a bad boy or a bad girl because when you are a bad boy or a bad girl that means you agree with me. It means you’re validating me and it means you love me. >> Right? So this is projective identification and this is the reason why children actually comply with the assigned roles. As you could ask yourself, why don’t children rebel? expectations to the child. You are a bad unworthy inadequate child and if you love me you’re going to behave this way. >> Yes, >> you’re going to be a bad a bad boy or a bad girl because when you are a bad boy or a bad girl that means you agree with me. It means you’re validating me and it means you love me. >> Right? So this is projective identification and this is the reason why children actually comply with the assigned roles. As you could ask yourself, why don’t children rebel?
31:54 Because children are rebellious by nature. Why don’t they rebel against this assignment of roles? Because it guarantees love. They are loved only only if they play by by the script. If they play out the script. if they if they comply with the with the rule book. So this illicit and ex and and and subtle communication of you know um you’re bad, you’re evil, you’re unworthy, but if you behave this way, you’re also lovable. You’re lovable only if you’re bad. >> Right? And of course the other type of Because children are rebellious by nature. Why don’t they rebel against this assignment of roles? Because it guarantees love. They are loved only only if they play by by the script. If they play out the script. if they if they comply with the with the rule book. So this illicit and ex and and and subtle communication of you know um you’re bad, you’re evil, you’re unworthy, but if you behave this way, you’re also lovable. You’re lovable only if you’re bad. >> Right? And of course the other type of
32:34 communication is you’re lovable only if you comply with my wishes, realize my fantasies, fulfill my dreams and yes and so on. >> The it’s exceedingly difficult to exit these roles lifelong unless the parent reassigns them. >> Can the can the adult siblings find liberation on their own? whether they’re in therapy, whether they are liberated, you know, this is it would be considered a dark thought, but it’s often quite true when a parent dies, you know, some people really come into their own um communication is you’re lovable only if you comply with my wishes, realize my fantasies, fulfill my dreams and yes and so on. >> The it’s exceedingly difficult to exit these roles lifelong unless the parent reassigns them. >> Can the can the adult siblings find liberation on their own? whether they’re in therapy, whether they are liberated, you know, this is it would be considered a dark thought, but it’s often quite true when a parent dies, you know, some people really come into their own um
33:08 because they’re free. They’re free of of the of the prison guard, frankly, the emotional prison guard. Um, you know, I this is a lesser example, but I know siblings who have open communications about this. My sibling and I among are among them. Oh, you were you were so you were the father’s fa you were dad’s favorite. You were mom’s favorite. That’s just the way it is. Nobody’s fault. Nope. It’s not our fault. It’s not your fault. It’s their fault. It’s because they’re free. They’re free of of the of the prison guard, frankly, the emotional prison guard. Um, you know, I this is a lesser example, but I know siblings who have open communications about this. My sibling and I among are among them. Oh, you were you were so you were the father’s fa you were dad’s favorite. You were mom’s favorite. That’s just the way it is. Nobody’s fault. Nope. It’s not our fault. It’s not your fault. It’s their fault. It’s
33:34 their fault. You know, it was their issues. Um so I I do wonder if there is if there is hope where a a golden child could reach out to a scapegoat and say, “Hey, like I see I see what went on and I didn’t like it.” inter sibling reconciliation and inter sibling understanding and so on are definitely possible and very common actually >> I love this siblings >> I love this >> siblings form a common front against the abusing parents >> so the golden child teams up with a their fault. You know, it was their issues. Um so I I do wonder if there is if there is hope where a a golden child could reach out to a scapegoat and say, “Hey, like I see I see what went on and I didn’t like it.” inter sibling reconciliation and inter sibling understanding and so on are definitely possible and very common actually >> I love this siblings >> I love this >> siblings form a common front against the abusing parents >> so the golden child teams up with a
34:06 scapegoat and they both vilify and demonize the parents that’s that’s pretty common it’s not only um it’s not only an awakening it usually goes way beyond that the parents are mythologized somehow And there’s a morality play where the children are all good. And so, ironically, what siblings tend to do, they tend to be they tend to adopt splitting as a defense. The the parents infantile defense mechanisms, which I’ve mentioned before, like splitting and projection kind of scapegoat and they both vilify and demonize the parents that’s that’s pretty common it’s not only um it’s not only an awakening it usually goes way beyond that the parents are mythologized somehow And there’s a morality play where the children are all good. And so, ironically, what siblings tend to do, they tend to be they tend to adopt splitting as a defense. The the parents infantile defense mechanisms, which I’ve mentioned before, like splitting and projection kind of
34:38 affect the siblings and and they tend to apply these these weapons um against the parents. It’s not a healthy dynamic. While >> are you talking about as a mode of reconciliation? >> No, I mean in siblings can can definitely reach a situation where they they love each other, they realize what has happened to them, they understand they’ve been victimized and so on and so forth. >> Okay. So, you’re not saying that that that in order to do that that’s another pathology at work where you’re affect the siblings and and they tend to apply these these weapons um against the parents. It’s not a healthy dynamic. While >> are you talking about as a mode of reconciliation? >> No, I mean in siblings can can definitely reach a situation where they they love each other, they realize what has happened to them, they understand they’ve been victimized and so on and so forth. >> Okay. So, you’re not saying that that that in order to do that that’s another pathology at work where you’re
35:10 demonizing the parent rather than just acknowledging what went on. There’s a difference. Studies then show that having gone through this sit stage of awakening. >> Mhm. >> Most people proceed into the next stage which is not healthy which is vilifying demonizing the parents creating a morality play where the children were all good and the parents were all bad. splitting the parents like my parents are are evil and I’m I’m pure angelic. >> Right. Right. Right. >> And so on. So this is an unhealthy demonizing the parent rather than just acknowledging what went on. There’s a difference. Studies then show that having gone through this sit stage of awakening. >> Mhm. >> Most people proceed into the next stage which is not healthy which is vilifying demonizing the parents creating a morality play where the children were all good and the parents were all bad. splitting the parents like my parents are are evil and I’m I’m pure angelic. >> Right. Right. Right. >> And so on. So this is an unhealthy
35:46 phase. >> You need to create an integrated nuanced view of your parents. >> Yes. >> Which includes forgiveness. >> Yes. >> Includes understanding. Includes putting yourself in their in their shoes which is empathy. Mhm. >> And includes the realization that you you are an adult and now you can understand them much better. >> Yes. And I love this. Go ahead. Sorry, not >> doesn’t mean that you have to forget. You should not forget. Uh remembering is phase. >> You need to create an integrated nuanced view of your parents. >> Yes. >> Which includes forgiveness. >> Yes. >> Includes understanding. Includes putting yourself in their in their shoes which is empathy. Mhm. >> And includes the realization that you you are an adult and now you can understand them much better. >> Yes. And I love this. Go ahead. Sorry, not >> doesn’t mean that you have to forget. You should not forget. Uh remembering is
36:18 a crucial crucial element in healing. But there’s a difference between forgetting and and forgiving. You can remember and not and forgive. And you can remember and not forgive. There are various combinations. >> Yes, >> it’s critical to understand the limitations of your parents. Vast majority of parents are not evil. This was not premeditated. It was not a cunning, scheming, psychopathic ploy to destroy your life and victimize you and ruin you. They were simply limited people. They were limited maybe by their a crucial crucial element in healing. But there’s a difference between forgetting and and forgiving. You can remember and not and forgive. And you can remember and not forgive. There are various combinations. >> Yes, >> it’s critical to understand the limitations of your parents. Vast majority of parents are not evil. This was not premeditated. It was not a cunning, scheming, psychopathic ploy to destroy your life and victimize you and ruin you. They were simply limited people. They were limited maybe by their
36:52 own mental illness, their own upbringing, their own historical background, their own there are numerous constraints and pressures that parents go through and and understanding your parents in this way I think is a crucial step. Unfortunately, many people go the wrong way. They they and this is a strangement coming back to the previous topic. Yes, exactly. >> They say, you know, my parents are all bad and I’m never ever going to have any contact with them again. >> And that’s not healthy because then it’s own mental illness, their own upbringing, their own historical background, their own there are numerous constraints and pressures that parents go through and and understanding your parents in this way I think is a crucial step. Unfortunately, many people go the wrong way. They they and this is a strangement coming back to the previous topic. Yes, exactly. >> They say, you know, my parents are all bad and I’m never ever going to have any contact with them again. >> And that’s not healthy because then it’s
37:30 the situation is unresolved. And >> it’s not healthy for you. I think again to get to the if if anybody most people act can be animated to act out of self-interest and it is not healthy to go through life demonizing and vilifying. Again, we’re not talking about abusers. We’re not talking about sexual, psychological, verbal, physical abuse. We’re talking about recognizing that as even we’re talking about the splitting between a golden child and a scapegoat that many parents are are the situation is unresolved. And >> it’s not healthy for you. I think again to get to the if if anybody most people act can be animated to act out of self-interest and it is not healthy to go through life demonizing and vilifying. Again, we’re not talking about abusers. We’re not talking about sexual, psychological, verbal, physical abuse. We’re talking about recognizing that as even we’re talking about the splitting between a golden child and a scapegoat that many parents are are
38:04 limited and are products of their generation, their time, their own parenting. Each successive generation tries to do better. >> Yeah, there is um there is a caveat. Uh Always a caveat with you, Sam. >> Yeah, of course there is. >> Studies have shown that when people interact with their parents, they revert >> to the assign. >> Yes. Yes. So, we got so many emails about this. Like, I go to the holiday dinner table and I turn into an 8-year-old. >> Yeah. >> I am a mother. I have a career. I am a limited and are products of their generation, their time, their own parenting. Each successive generation tries to do better. >> Yeah, there is um there is a caveat. Uh Always a caveat with you, Sam. >> Yeah, of course there is. >> Studies have shown that when people interact with their parents, they revert >> to the assign. >> Yes. Yes. So, we got so many emails about this. Like, I go to the holiday dinner table and I turn into an 8-year-old. >> Yeah. >> I am a mother. I have a career. I am a
38:39 wife. I’m across from my father and I become eight. How does one fight back against that? Can you? Should you? >> It’s very difficult to fight back against that. The assigned roles as I said earlier are pretty lifelong and they they are a determinant of identity. >> Mhm. >> And you internalize your parents. They become introjects and they speak to you from the inside. >> Interjects. I love that word. >> Yeah. They speak to you from the inside. And one of the messages is this is your wife. I’m across from my father and I become eight. How does one fight back against that? Can you? Should you? >> It’s very difficult to fight back against that. The assigned roles as I said earlier are pretty lifelong and they they are a determinant of identity. >> Mhm. >> And you internalize your parents. They become introjects and they speak to you from the inside. >> Interjects. I love that word. >> Yeah. They speak to you from the inside. And one of the messages is this is your
39:12 role. If you love me, you’re going to fulfill the role. You’re going to comply with the role. You’re going to play the role. You know, if you love me, that’s proof of love. You need to prove your love. Your love needs to be performative. >> Mhm. >> These are very sick family dynamics. Let it be clear, these are not healthy family dynamics. And yet, a a lot of this is internalized and carried forward to the end of life. So the best you can do is is reconstruct your family with your siblings and other role. If you love me, you’re going to fulfill the role. You’re going to comply with the role. You’re going to play the role. You know, if you love me, that’s proof of love. You need to prove your love. Your love needs to be performative. >> Mhm. >> These are very sick family dynamics. Let it be clear, these are not healthy family dynamics. And yet, a a lot of this is internalized and carried forward to the end of life. So the best you can do is is reconstruct your family with your siblings and other
39:45 members of the family like aunts and uncles and grandmothers and grandfathers and so on. Reconstruct your family essentially except that your mother and father were not gods. They were they were gods with clay feet. They were limited. They were they did their best but the best wasn’t good enough. You have to accept this. People fail. They have failed you. They haven’t vict. It’s not about victimizing. It’s not that they have victimized you. They have failed you. >> It’s a failure. members of the family like aunts and uncles and grandmothers and grandfathers and so on. Reconstruct your family essentially except that your mother and father were not gods. They were they were gods with clay feet. They were limited. They were they did their best but the best wasn’t good enough. You have to accept this. People fail. They have failed you. They haven’t vict. It’s not about victimizing. It’s not that they have victimized you. They have failed you. >> It’s a failure.
40:17 >> Mhm. >> And so you have to accept that people fail. >> Mhm. >> You have to be adult about it. You have to be mature about it. And you have to accept that when you’re in the presence of your parents, you’re going to revert to your assigned role. You’re going to regress. You’re going to become an infant. Mhm. >> That is totally normal. No need to be anxious about this. No need to be angry about this. >> Mhm. >> It’s totally normal thing. And when you >> Mhm. >> And so you have to accept that people fail. >> Mhm. >> You have to be adult about it. You have to be mature about it. And you have to accept that when you’re in the presence of your parents, you’re going to revert to your assigned role. You’re going to regress. You’re going to become an infant. Mhm. >> That is totally normal. No need to be anxious about this. No need to be angry about this. >> Mhm. >> It’s totally normal thing. And when you
40:43 leave when you leave, return to your home and to your life. I mean, it’s it’s it’s transient. It doesn’t have long-term consequences or or anything. So, there are inevitabilities in life. There are inelectable things that there’s very little we can do about. We are shaped. We are shaped and we are formed. Recent studies in neuroscience have demonstrated pretty conclusively that we are completely shaped by age nine. >> Whoa. >> The brain the brain has four ages and leave when you leave, return to your home and to your life. I mean, it’s it’s it’s transient. It doesn’t have long-term consequences or or anything. So, there are inevitabilities in life. There are inelectable things that there’s very little we can do about. We are shaped. We are shaped and we are formed. Recent studies in neuroscience have demonstrated pretty conclusively that we are completely shaped by age nine. >> Whoa. >> The brain the brain has four ages and
41:14 one of them is age nine. So now we know the formative years are 0 to 9. Not zero. >> Wow. >> This is very recent. This is the bleeding edge. This is like a few days ago. And so uh we have to accept this. We have been shaped. We have been molded. We have been sculpted. And to some extent some parts of us are going to be like that. What is the solution? To give up on your life. If you give up on your parents, you’re giving up on on a crucial part of your life and an enormous portion of your one of them is age nine. So now we know the formative years are 0 to 9. Not zero. >> Wow. >> This is very recent. This is the bleeding edge. This is like a few days ago. And so uh we have to accept this. We have been shaped. We have been molded. We have been sculpted. And to some extent some parts of us are going to be like that. What is the solution? To give up on your life. If you give up on your parents, you’re giving up on on a crucial part of your life and an enormous portion of your
41:49 identity. This is this is self-sabotage. This is self-defeating. This is not a good way forward. This is self-denial. You’re denying yourself. It’s very likely to result in phenomena such as anxiety and and depression. You have to confront your life, embrace it, integrate it. You have to become one with your life. And your parents will always be there. They’re inside your head. There’s nothing you can do about it. They’re always going to be inside your head. They’re an integral part of identity. This is this is self-sabotage. This is self-defeating. This is not a good way forward. This is self-denial. You’re denying yourself. It’s very likely to result in phenomena such as anxiety and and depression. You have to confront your life, embrace it, integrate it. You have to become one with your life. And your parents will always be there. They’re inside your head. There’s nothing you can do about it. They’re always going to be inside your head. They’re an integral part of
42:21 your personal biography. They form your what we call episodic memories. You can’t get rid of your parents by going no contact. That is delusional. That’s not only infantile, it’s also delusional. It’s not working. I mean, had it had it had it worked, I may may have said, you know, it’s a great idea. It’s not working. It’s not going to work because your parents are inside your head. They’re not out there. And this is the answer to your other question. When the parents pass away, that’s that your personal biography. They form your what we call episodic memories. You can’t get rid of your parents by going no contact. That is delusional. That’s not only infantile, it’s also delusional. It’s not working. I mean, had it had it had it worked, I may may have said, you know, it’s a great idea. It’s not working. It’s not going to work because your parents are inside your head. They’re not out there. And this is the answer to your other question. When the parents pass away, that’s that
42:52 doesn’t resolve the issue. People believe that it resolves the issue. They convince themselves. It’s like the placebo effect, you know. They convince themselves. My mother is is, you know, passed away. Now I’m free. Now I’m That’s uh that’s that’s false. That’s fake. That’s not real. >> I got to tell you something. I had a shrink once. So I had been hospitalized for pneumonia years and years and years ago. And I I was put I was put from the emergency room up into a room with um doesn’t resolve the issue. People believe that it resolves the issue. They convince themselves. It’s like the placebo effect, you know. They convince themselves. My mother is is, you know, passed away. Now I’m free. Now I’m That’s uh that’s that’s false. That’s fake. That’s not real. >> I got to tell you something. I had a shrink once. So I had been hospitalized for pneumonia years and years and years ago. And I I was put I was put from the emergency room up into a room with um
43:19 there was an elderly woman in the bed next to me and she was dying. She was like actively dying. And she was maybe 90. She looked like a wraith. She looked like that Wraith in Seven when the cops go into the room and they’re like they think the guy’s dead and he like uh you know and uh she was screaming mommy mommy mommy she was like screaming this and I said to my shrink when I got out of the hospital I was like it never ends it and she goes no it never does >> never does true >> never does but mommy’s always there there was an elderly woman in the bed next to me and she was dying. She was like actively dying. And she was maybe 90. She looked like a wraith. She looked like that Wraith in Seven when the cops go into the room and they’re like they think the guy’s dead and he like uh you know and uh she was screaming mommy mommy mommy she was like screaming this and I said to my shrink when I got out of the hospital I was like it never ends it and she goes no it never does >> never does true >> never does but mommy’s always there
43:48 >> but if we have two more minutes I I would like >> I would like maybe to restore some proportion >> yes >> there is no job more terrifying than a parent. >> Yes. >> Not not the president of the United States, not the chief justice, not the most terrifying job by far is parent, mother or father. >> You’re so right. >> And also the majority of people are not equipped to be parents. >> Yeah. >> They were not trained to be parents. They didn’t learn or study how to be >> but if we have two more minutes I I would like >> I would like maybe to restore some proportion >> yes >> there is no job more terrifying than a parent. >> Yes. >> Not not the president of the United States, not the chief justice, not the most terrifying job by far is parent, mother or father. >> You’re so right. >> And also the majority of people are not equipped to be parents. >> Yeah. >> They were not trained to be parents. They didn’t learn or study how to be
44:21 parents. >> And I’m going to say something that might be controversial, but I believe it’s true. I think there are more people walking around than not who have kids or had children because it was the thing to do. >> It was the people thing to do. >> People have kids for a variety of wrong reasons and so on. But I’m talking now about um the innate capacity to parent. >> Understood. >> People don’t know how to parent because they had a bad example at home growing parents. >> And I’m going to say something that might be controversial, but I believe it’s true. I think there are more people walking around than not who have kids or had children because it was the thing to do. >> It was the people thing to do. >> People have kids for a variety of wrong reasons and so on. But I’m talking now about um the innate capacity to parent. >> Understood. >> People don’t know how to parent because they had a bad example at home growing
44:46 up or because they think uh parenting is like driving a car. you know, it’s kind of an automatic thing or because they’ve been misled by society to to believe that having children is a thing to do or for a variety of reasons, >> right? >> So, put the two together, the terror, the absolute terror of having a child. >> Mhm. >> The fear of getting it wrong, >> the ignorance, am I doing the right thing? the the expectations multiple expectations including of your own up or because they think uh parenting is like driving a car. you know, it’s kind of an automatic thing or because they’ve been misled by society to to believe that having children is a thing to do or for a variety of reasons, >> right? >> So, put the two together, the terror, the absolute terror of having a child. >> Mhm. >> The fear of getting it wrong, >> the ignorance, am I doing the right thing? the the expectations multiple expectations including of your own
45:18 parents and >> put so there’s an ambiencece of terror coupled with inadequacy in the majority of cases. Now, imagine how terrifying this is. Your parents, I mean, I’m not talking, as you said, I’m not talking about incest and sexual abuse. I’m not talking about these things. These these are beyond the pale. >> Yes. >> A typical pair of parents, including parents who who who split and divide children into assign roles of of golden child and scapegoat, which is very parents and >> put so there’s an ambiencece of terror coupled with inadequacy in the majority of cases. Now, imagine how terrifying this is. Your parents, I mean, I’m not talking, as you said, I’m not talking about incest and sexual abuse. I’m not talking about these things. These these are beyond the pale. >> Yes. >> A typical pair of parents, including parents who who who split and divide children into assign roles of of golden child and scapegoat, which is very
45:50 common, more common than than you would think. >> Yeah. >> They they were doing their best. You you must accept this. They’re doing their best. That’s the best they could do. Are you angry at them for being who they are or who they were? Are you angry at them? What are you angry them for? Let me understand. That’s that’s what that’s the maximum they could have done. That’s it. The same applies to yourself. You have to forgive yourself. You have you’ve you’re always doing your best. If common, more common than than you would think. >> Yeah. >> They they were doing their best. You you must accept this. They’re doing their best. That’s the best they could do. Are you angry at them for being who they are or who they were? Are you angry at them? What are you angry them for? Let me understand. That’s that’s what that’s the maximum they could have done. That’s it. The same applies to yourself. You have to forgive yourself. You have you’ve you’re always doing your best. If
46:24 the outcome is less than optimal, if you keep failing or whatever, there’s no call for you to be angry at yourself, to criticize yourself, to vilify yourself, to deny, no reason for any of this. You’re doing your best. We are all doing our best all the time. But we’re limited. We’re helpless. We are, you know, and very often we fail. And especially when we’re in panic, panic mode. And all parents I know are constantly in panic mode. And panic mode never ends. Even when the child is 16 the outcome is less than optimal, if you keep failing or whatever, there’s no call for you to be angry at yourself, to criticize yourself, to vilify yourself, to deny, no reason for any of this. You’re doing your best. We are all doing our best all the time. But we’re limited. We’re helpless. We are, you know, and very often we fail. And especially when we’re in panic, panic mode. And all parents I know are constantly in panic mode. And panic mode never ends. Even when the child is 16
47:00 and even when the child is 26 and even when the child is 46. And panic mode never ends. It’s taxing. Being a parent is taxing. I don’t want to go into studies because I don’t want to dissuade people, but it’s really it’s a tough job. It’s a it’s a horrible job. It’s a tough job. And if you get it wrong, you ruin someone’s life. You’re ruining someone’s life. It’s I mean, the stakes are enormous. I mean, give them give them cut them some slack, you know. Give us give them and even when the child is 26 and even when the child is 46. And panic mode never ends. It’s taxing. Being a parent is taxing. I don’t want to go into studies because I don’t want to dissuade people, but it’s really it’s a tough job. It’s a it’s a horrible job. It’s a tough job. And if you get it wrong, you ruin someone’s life. You’re ruining someone’s life. It’s I mean, the stakes are enormous. I mean, give them give them cut them some slack, you know. Give us give them
47:30 a break. I mean, they did they did what they could. Stop being so, you know, self-focused and and self >> self-righteous and sanctimonious. And what makes you think you would have done a better job? >> I got to say, Sam, I love everything you’re saying. I hope that this the the conversations that you and I are having at the nerve have some push back in a culture still led by Oprah Winfrey who had on that show that we we showed at the top of the nerve. Uh a guy like a 28-year-old guy who said, “Yeah, I’ve a break. I mean, they did they did what they could. Stop being so, you know, self-focused and and self >> self-righteous and sanctimonious. And what makes you think you would have done a better job? >> I got to say, Sam, I love everything you’re saying. I hope that this the the conversations that you and I are having at the nerve have some push back in a culture still led by Oprah Winfrey who had on that show that we we showed at the top of the nerve. Uh a guy like a 28-year-old guy who said, “Yeah, I’ve
48:03 been no contact with my parents for years now.” And you want to know why? They wanted me to succeed. They wanted me to go to an Ivy League school and perform well. That’s his gripe. They wanted a good life for him. So no contact for them. They’re gone. They’re floating in space, you know. And I think everything that you have had to say here today has been incredibly enlightening. Some of it’s complicated. Some of it’s difficult to absorb, but some of it is extremely I think gives consolation and been no contact with my parents for years now.” And you want to know why? They wanted me to succeed. They wanted me to go to an Ivy League school and perform well. That’s his gripe. They wanted a good life for him. So no contact for them. They’re gone. They’re floating in space, you know. And I think everything that you have had to say here today has been incredibly enlightening. Some of it’s complicated. Some of it’s difficult to absorb, but some of it is extremely I think gives consolation and
48:35 encouragement to many people who this holiday season will be sitting around a table wondering why they feel like they’re eight and maybe reaching across to the uh the scapegoated kid and saying, “Hey man, like you know, let’s go outside and take a walk.” You know, I I think I I think I know what went on there. >> Can I add one more sentence? >> Of course. estrangement, the rejection of others, going no contact for no good reason is because you cannot accept the fact that other people are different to encouragement to many people who this holiday season will be sitting around a table wondering why they feel like they’re eight and maybe reaching across to the uh the scapegoated kid and saying, “Hey man, like you know, let’s go outside and take a walk.” You know, I I think I I think I know what went on there. >> Can I add one more sentence? >> Of course. estrangement, the rejection of others, going no contact for no good reason is because you cannot accept the fact that other people are different to
49:01 you. You cannot accept the otherness of people. >> Very true. >> This is a form of othering. >> Yes. >> This is exactly what the walk movement is all about. Like you shouldn’t other people alterity. You know, you shouldn’t reject people just because they’re not like you. Then why are you rejecting your parents because they’re not like you? Why are you rejecting >> why are you rejecting your Trump voting brother because he’s not like you? Why? Where is the the the where is the the you. You cannot accept the otherness of people. >> Very true. >> This is a form of othering. >> Yes. >> This is exactly what the walk movement is all about. Like you shouldn’t other people alterity. You know, you shouldn’t reject people just because they’re not like you. Then why are you rejecting your parents because they’re not like you? Why are you rejecting >> why are you rejecting your Trump voting brother because he’s not like you? Why? Where is the the the where is the the
49:30 much much hallowed tolerance and and openness and when it comes to your own family you know so you need to accept that people are not like you shockingly shockingly shocking people are not like you and not everything revolves around you I know it’s unbelievable but it happens to be true and that people have a life and they have a mind and they make their own decisions and choices analysis and and and conclusions and so on so forth and very often they’re not like yours. The you need to develop much much hallowed tolerance and and openness and when it comes to your own family you know so you need to accept that people are not like you shockingly shockingly shocking people are not like you and not everything revolves around you I know it’s unbelievable but it happens to be true and that people have a life and they have a mind and they make their own decisions and choices analysis and and and conclusions and so on so forth and very often they’re not like yours. The you need to develop
50:05 othering skills. You need to develop the ability to accept other people and and and their differences. It is a huge irony of course that all these super tolerant you know people >> yes >> are only as only tolerant uh towards people who are like-minded only tolerant within silos thought silos and only tolerant within the inroup while rejecting wholeheartedly >> and and sometimes aggressively the out group >> and who have turned that notion of going no contact into a religion. othering skills. You need to develop the ability to accept other people and and and their differences. It is a huge irony of course that all these super tolerant you know people >> yes >> are only as only tolerant uh towards people who are like-minded only tolerant within silos thought silos and only tolerant within the inroup while rejecting wholeheartedly >> and and sometimes aggressively the out group >> and who have turned that notion of going no contact into a religion.
50:44 >> No contact is an aggressive act. It is externalized aggression. No other way to describe it. I mean, except if you’re being abused. >> Exactly. With that exception, you know, well stated, well established here, but it is a profound act of cruelty and it cuts family members off from successive generations. I mean there were many people in that special talking about having zero relationship with their own grandchildren and that is a cruelty >> with the exception of abuse. >> No contact is an aggressive act. It is externalized aggression. No other way to describe it. I mean, except if you’re being abused. >> Exactly. With that exception, you know, well stated, well established here, but it is a profound act of cruelty and it cuts family members off from successive generations. I mean there were many people in that special talking about having zero relationship with their own grandchildren and that is a cruelty >> with the exception of abuse.
51:17 >> Yep. >> All other forms of no contact are actually expressions of unmitigated externalized aggression. And in this sense they are very typical of uh psychopaths and narcissists and so on. We are coming back full circle. It is definitely a manifestation and expression of antisocial narcissism. Not only narcissism, but the antisocial kind. >> Sam, I wish I could go on with you forever, but for now, we will leave it there. This is one of the kind of holiday conversations we at the nerve >> Yep. >> All other forms of no contact are actually expressions of unmitigated externalized aggression. And in this sense they are very typical of uh psychopaths and narcissists and so on. We are coming back full circle. It is definitely a manifestation and expression of antisocial narcissism. Not only narcissism, but the antisocial kind. >> Sam, I wish I could go on with you forever, but for now, we will leave it there. This is one of the kind of holiday conversations we at the nerve
51:52 love to have. Thank you again for joining us and see you soon. >> Thank you for having me. Good to see you again. And uh >> good to see you. Merry and happy, you know. Merry Christmas, happy new year. >> Merry and happy to you, Sam. >> Thank you. love to have. Thank you again for joining us and see you soon. >> Thank you for having me. Good to see you again. And uh >> good to see you. Merry and happy, you know. Merry Christmas, happy new year. >> Merry and happy to you, Sam. >> Thank you.

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