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1. 00:00 Um, hi Sam. Nice to see you again. Um, we’re here discussing some emotive
2. 00:07 topics today. So, Gaza and Israel and the state of Palestine. Um, so this is
3. 00:14 um, Professor Sam Vaknin. A lot of you know know him of course. And I’m Eve Topic, a UK journalist. Hello Eve to a UK journalist. That’s a
4. 00:25 bit of a long name, mind you. That is it. It is indeed. You can call me Eve. I will. I will do my best. You can Don’t call me Adam. Why not?
5. 00:36 We’ll both be expelled from the Garden of Eden, which is this chat. I think we have been expelled already.
6. 00:43 Yes, we have. The Middle East. Yeah. So, um yeah. So, a less humorous topic
7. 00:51 obviously. Um the cover of The Independent, a UK newspaper the other day. Um, you know, it was a plain cover showing the amount of journalists who had been killed by Israelis and it had a
8. 01:05 slogan, will there be anybody left to report the news? Um, and this is because
9. 01:11 the press have not been allowed in Gaza and the ones who have been in Gaza have sadly been killed. An Al Jazzer
10. 01:18 journalist who is very well known. Um, he’s been remembered on many of the programs. Um, so what we’re seeing is,
11. 01:27 you know, a a place that’s locked off. We can’t get in there to report and
12. 01:33 we’re relying on reports from people there. I’m actually talking to a nurse. His name is Nurse Hamza. He’s grown a
13. 01:41 huge Instagram following um through his story. He works 16 hours a day on water
14. 01:47 and salt as his only sustenance. and he’s working really hard to raise donations not only for himself and his
15. 01:54 family but also for the Peacock team who help provide aid in Gaza. And we’ve also
16. 02:00 got reports of doctors saying that you know this isn’t Hamas. We are we are seeing these are not combatants. We are healing children. We are seeing mothers pregnant women who have had their you know uterus split open and the baby
17. 02:16 killed. We are seeing three-year-olds with a bullet in the brain. Um, children killed for fun. Um, obviously there’s
18. 02:24 not a huge way to verify this, but I do believe what the doctors are saying and I do believe these accounts. Um, on the
19. 02:32 other hand, we have very nicel lookinging Israeli combatants who have
20. 02:38 um had their legs cut off and they’re sitting in a wheelchair crying holding a birthday cake. and it’s always these
21. 02:45 pretty young girls that are on the Israeli side. So to get away from the propaganda and more towards the
22. 02:51 conflict, um this is an area that has been marred by conflict for a very long time. We you know in 2011 we had the Arab Spring, we had to hear Square um
23. 03:03 what are your views on this Sam? on on the Arab Spring, on every the the Middle East, the
24. 03:10 Palestine, Israeli conflict, you know, yourself being Israeli. Yeah.
25. 03:17 Well, it it actually started in the 1880s. So, we’re talking of something that’s been going on for almost 150 years, which makes me reach a conclusion or
26. 03:29 leads me to the conclusion that uh this is some eternal conflict, not a conflict that can be resolved. Now, people especially Americans um have this um malignant optimism.
27. 03:43 Every disease can be cured, every conflict can be resolved. for example, Ukraine and Russia, every you know and
28. 03:50 of course reality is that only a small percentage of diseases can be cured especially for example in mental health and and um many many conflicts um the
29. 04:02 only way to resolve them is by the extinction of one of the participants in the conflict. That’s that happens to be a fact. And um
30. 04:14 I think the most intractable conflict possibly in in in world history, if we
31. 04:20 ignore for a minute the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage, the most intractable conflict hither two
32. 04:27 I think is the the Palestinian Israeli conflict. I do not think there is a way to resolve
33. 04:33 it. I think the one-state solution is out of the question because the Jews will not sacrifice the Jewish nature of
34. 04:40 the state. They they would rather sacrifice the democratic nature of the state. They would rather sacrifice the
35. 04:46 human uh face of the state. They they would sacrifice anything except the
36. 04:53 Jewish identity of the state. And that precludes a one-state solution. And a
37. 04:59 two-state solution is is no longer feasible. absolutely no longer feasible. There are close to 800,000 Israelis in
38. 05:08 the West Bank alone and they’re talking about resettling the the ga Gaza. So,
39. 05:15 yeah. Well, this is this is what’s upsetting. I mean, the the Gardens have been there, you know, for a long time as
40. 05:22 well. The Palestinians have been there for a long time. And we’re seeing videos on social media whether they can be
41. 05:28 verified or not of, you know, Israelis pitching up to choose which piece of land they’d like to build their new
42. 05:34 house on. And that to me is absolutely abhorrent when they got gardens being
43. 05:40 systematically starved and you’re seeing, you know, millions of pounds
44. 05:46 worth of food rotting in the deserts that cannot get to these people. Um, but I do agree with you. the the one-state solution appears impossible. I would I would like to think in an ideal world,
45. 05:57 if we’re in a utopian world, um Thomas Moore, bless his heart, um that we could
46. 06:05 have a one state and Belgium this morning was saying, you know, that is
47. 06:11 what they would like. Um the US is against it quite obviously, but I don’t I don’t think that’s that’s wrong to be
48. 06:18 honest. I I don’t think that’s a wrong thing. It’s I don’t think it’s anywhere remotely doable. The Flemish and Valance
49. 06:24 were not killing each other for for one and a half centuries. Yeah. I don’t think it’s remotely possible. Definitely
50. 06:30 not after October 7th. No. And and what I’m seeing as well is, you know, what disturbs me is this idea
51. 06:38 of old Judea and they want to rebuild old Judea and there are now, you know,
52. 06:45 Israelis going onto Egyptian territory. And as an Egyptian personally, I find this quite, you know, grating. And they’re harassing Egyptian women and filming them. And the Egyptian women
53. 06:57 say, “What are you doing?” And they say, “This is our land. This is Judea. You need to get off our land.” And I’m not
54. 07:04 really sure what’s going on inside Israel that would promote this kind of thinking. That really disturbs me. Geopolitics is the art of the possible.
55. 07:17 Um, and so now Israel is enabled by the Trump administration and many, many things are possible now that had been
56. 07:28 impossible just a year ago. And geopolitics doesn’t tolerate a vacuum
57. 07:34 where there is the possibility and the potential. It charges forth. So if Israel were able to conquer Turkey with the ascent and blessing of the United States, they would. It’s just the
58. 07:46 art of the possible. That’s that’s what we call politic. And so
59. 07:52 might is right. Um justice is not a consideration in
60. 07:58 international affairs. I’m sorry to say. And the only solution to the conflict in
61. 08:05 in on the land of Palestine or the land of Israel or the land of Judea or call it as you will on that piece of tiny
62. 08:12 piece of land. It’s a postage stamp size piece of land and the two nations there are mutually
63. 08:20 exclusive. One of them has to go. The only How is that going to happen? How is that possibly going to happen? Well, one possibility is genocide or extinction. Another possibility is
64. 08:31 relocation by force or by inducement. One of these two nations has to go.
65. 08:37 And where would I mean the Palestinian option? The notating I’m not advocating. I said one of these two nations. I didn’t say the
66. 08:43 Palestinians have to go. I said one of these two nations have to go. Has to go. But well, I was thinking about where the
67. 08:49 Palestinians would go. And obviously the closest would be Egypt. I I would say that’s probably Egypt, Jordan, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. That’s not the issue. I think we’re not here to to solve the the conflict. We’re
68. 09:00 here to discuss theabilities of the conflict. And the inevitabilities of the conflict is that
69. 09:06 these two nations have proven pretty conclusively that they cannot coexist. I mean it’s happened since it’s happened for years now. I mean at 2011 2018 I
70. 09:17 mean the the list is endless um of of 2021
71. 09:23 we we’ve had so many issues with these 19 1936 1929 the last 10 years. Yeah. Well, I mean in the 60s as well, you know, and and there were more than one countries involved. Then there are
72. 09:39 many Arab countries um were involved in these wars in the 60s and 70s. They can’t coexist. Now the Palestinians
73. 09:47 are uh the underdogs because they have lost effective Arab support
74. 09:53 and because the might of Israel has never been bigger and the support for Israel in rapidly evangelizing United
75. 10:01 States has never been bigger. So and the control the control as well the money the monetary aspect the fact that
76. 10:07 there is a lot of the Jews the Jews have have actually donated less than Qatar in the United
77. 10:14 States in the past few years I don’t I don’t think it’s the money I think it’s the the lore and the myth of the Bible
78. 10:20 and the the dedication to fulfilling the prophecies of of old you know and and so
79. 10:26 Israel is perceived as a as a divine proclamation the realization of long
80. 10:32 long-held promises enshrined in canonical texts. And it’s a deserved land for for the
81. 10:40 Israelis. It’s a deserved land after all all of the times that they have been persecuted throughout history. I think
82. 10:47 that’s it as well that they have been persecuted again and again and now they have this sacred land upon which to
83. 10:53 build. They have been lending a lot of money um to powerful people and they have powerful connections in in the US.
84. 11:01 I think that helps. So do the Arabs. So do the Arabs. I I don’t think it’s limited to the Jews or to the Israelis. And I’m repeating the fact is that Arabs have been outspending Jews massively in
85. 11:12 the past decade or so. That that includes Saudi Arabia, United the Arab Emirates, Qatar, Dubai and so on so
86. 11:19 forth. It’s not a question of money. I mean those people who delude themselves
87. 11:25 into thinking that it’s about money, that’s an anti-Semitic trope of course, but they are seriously mistaken and and
88. 11:33 misguided. It’s not about money. It’s about an affinity of of narratives. The
89. 11:39 American narrative had become right-wing, evangelical, um mystical, esquetological.
90. 11:47 America is off the rails. And that sits well with the with the extreme or
91. 11:53 radical Jewish narrative or the right-wing Jewish narrative. So there’s a confluence of these narratives and they feed on each other and they and this is the source. This is the fountain of support, not the money. The fountain
92. 12:04 of support is that uh there’s nothing in common between Islam and for example the
93. 12:10 Christians that control Congress and the Senate. But I think there is I think there’s a lot
94. 12:16 in common with I think there’s more in common with these religions than they would like to believe. Um I know I know
95. 12:23 they don’t perceive it this way. Maybe there is but that’s not the perception definitely. I mean Islam is perceived as as enemy of of Christianity and enemy of the United States by
96. 12:34 but LCC say in Egypt for example LCC’s um trying to get um some sort of
97. 12:40 reconciliation between the Coptic Christians and the Islamics which of course the majority of the country. I mean um the Christians are limited to a small part of Cairo. Um but there there
98. 12:54 is becoming this affinity that slowly but surely I don’t know if it’s a symbol of modern times social media or something like that but there is becoming an affinity and there is a recognition of common feeling of common rhetoric.
99. 13:09 The cops are hardly representative of of the United States Congress or the United States Senate and
100. 13:15 no absolutely not. uh in terms they do share the the mythology that the cops are the original Egyptians. So there is something there which is more
101. 13:26 nationalistic I would say than religious. But let’s not talk about Egyptian politics. We’re talking about Palestine. Palestine there are two nations hellbent on killing each other and destroying
102. 13:37 each other whenever possible. Of course, Palestinians have been in sit in in in a power asymmetry where they were not able to kill Jews because the Jews were stronger. And the Jews took advantage of
103. 13:50 their strength and killed Palestinians of plenty and with abundance and joy. And this is the situation. One of these two nations has to go. It’s the joy. I know it’s not popular to say this, but
104. 14:02 it’s that’s the reality. It’s not popular. No, but sometimes the not popular thing is the thing that has to be said. I mean I it’s the joyfulness with which the gardens are being killed
105. 14:15 which I think disgusts a lot of people and I think this is why it’s being called a war crime. I think it’s been
106. 14:22 deemed legally a war crime. Well, there’s been a lot of joy on October 7th by by not only Hamas but
107. 14:31 about two 3,000 ordinary Palestinians who crossed over from Gaza. Yeah, there’s been a lot of may I add justified joy because these people have been oppressed and and killed and you
108. 14:43 know for decades. I mean I’m not I’m not um judging anyone. I’m just I’m just
109. 14:49 married to the facts. And the fact is whenever Palestinians get the chance, they just love and adore to slaughter
110. 14:58 Israelis. And when and whenever Israelis get the chance, they just love and adore
111. 15:04 to slaughter Palestinians. It’s a mutually mutually assured emotion, mutually assured destruction. So one of these two people have has to go. I don’t with her with her obviously they were voted in. So there is also talk you know these
112. 15:21 people were voted in therefore that they everybody believes that they are
113. 15:27 correct. I mean, they didn’t It’s like with Hitler. People didn’t know that he was going to do what he did when he was voted in. There was the night of the long knives. He didn’t even get the majority. So, you know, it’s it’s the
114. 15:38 same with Hermes. I feel it’s that way. Um, what Hermes have done is disgusting.
115. 15:44 I don’t agree with what they’ve done. I feel bad for the hostages. I think the hostages should be released. But on the
116. 15:50 other side, I believe that Garzen should stop being slaughtered and killed and left to die where their own currency
117. 15:57 isn’t even able to buy them anything and merchants are gatekeeping hordes of
118. 16:03 foods and goods that come through. As well, no debate that civilians should not die. No, but they are not the one that’s the problem. They are on both sides. It’s important.
119. 16:16 They were they were living normal lives before. This is what this is what upsets me you know just personally when you see
120. 16:24 previous videos of gardens they were living normal lives with phones with
121. 16:30 fashion with hotels with joy and now it’s been completely destroyed. If it
122. 16:37 happens there and if it keeps happening throughout the Middle East, how how far is this disease that you say is
123. 16:44 incurable going to spread? Is this going to happen to us? Will we be sitting on our phones
124. 16:50 one day and the next day we’re living in rubble? It could happen. Depends where you are located. I don’t think Israelis have any territorial pretensions when it comes to Cairo or
125. 17:02 Alexandria, but they definitely have territorial pretensions when it comes to parts of Jordan and Syria and Lebanon and Sinai,
126. 17:11 the Sinai desert and um and so on so forth. And and as I told you, it’s it’s
127. 17:17 a question of how far can you go, not a question of whether what you’re doing is
128. 17:23 just or right or it’s just how far you can go. And that applies to Israelis, to
129. 17:30 Arabs, and to Palestinians, and to the Palestinians were dealt a bad hand right now. There’s a power asymmetry. They’re suffering. Had the situation been reversed, we would both be mourning the
130. 17:44 massacres in Tel Aviv. Yes, of course. And I don’t agree with with the people who have been killed in
131. 17:50 Tel Aviv. I don’t agree with killing full stop. It’s something that humans tend to do to each other throughout the
132. 17:56 entirety of history. No matter how many laws forbid it or try to restrict it, it seems to be within our intrinsic nature. But what I feel is happening now is
133. 18:07 beyond the usual conflict between Palestine and Israel. It has become
134. 18:13 something that is akin to Ashvitz. I hate to say it. And some people say that
135. 18:19 Israel has forgotten its history. Palestinians uh fell prey to the fact to
136. 18:25 fell prey to a historical process where the international order is falling apart. It’s a demise of the
137. 18:32 international order or at least the post second world war international order and so they’re falling through the
138. 18:38 cracks there. There is a group of nations that includes Israel, United States and so on
139. 18:45 who no longer adhere to the international order and have adopted might is right politic and and it’s a
140. 18:53 buffet eat as much as you can you know and so on so forth. So there’s this group of
141. 18:59 nations and there’s another group of nations mainly European nations and and I think to a large extent even China and
142. 19:05 and countries like China um which say China supports
143. 19:12 they’re still trying somehow to maintain a modicum an appearance at least of of order and structure and law and some irony is that China is upholding the rule of international law nowadays whereas Russia and the United States are the the greatest transgressors, you
144. 19:30 know, against this the very order that they’ve both established in in the wake of the Second World War. And the
145. 19:36 Palestinians are falling through the cracks. The it’s an earthquake, a seismic shift, a tectonic shift, and the
146. 19:44 earth has opened its mouth and the Palestinians fell in. So right now,
147. 19:50 unfortunately for the Palestinians, they’re within the sphere of lawlessness, international lawlessness
148. 19:56 as raified by the United States and Israel and other allies of the of the United States. It’s a it’s um it’s
149. 20:03 lawlessness. And this no one is going to save the Palestinians. not as agency of
150. 20:09 Palestinians because these uh the nations that were supposed to uphold the
151. 20:15 rule of law, international law are no longer capable of doing this or interested to do this. So there’s a
152. 20:23 transition in in in narrative and I think Palestinians didn’t catch up to it. They are Pal Palestinians are trying
153. 20:31 to trigger the world’s conscience or to talk about justice and to talk about
154. 20:37 crimes against humanity and to talk about which are very true. Crimes are against humanity are taking place in
155. 20:43 Gaza. I mean preponderantly so hardly the issue. It’s no longer
156. 20:50 relevant. Do you think that Israel will be held accountable by um the colonial
157. 20:58 world at large for their war crimes or do you think they will just be swept under the proverbial rug? I don’t think Israel will be held accountable. Perhaps an individual or
158. 21:10 two would be, but I doubt that very much as well. Or cut the head off the snake. Sorry. Cut the head off the snake and another one will grow out. The head of a
159. 21:21 snake is is not the snake. It’s again a common mistake. Netanyahu
160. 21:27 Netanyahu is not an outlier or an aberration. Exactly the same way that Trump is not
161. 21:34 an outlier or an aberration. They are the raification, personalification and embodiment of the ethos and and narrative of their nations. Should
162. 21:46 Netanyahu or Trump die tomorrow, nothing will happen. Nothing will change. It’s a it’s a mistake to think so. But no, I
163. 21:53 don’t think anyone will be held accountable because the international order is disintegrating
164. 21:59 and I think countries such as the I mean Europe, European countries for example are finding themselves more and more
165. 22:05 isolated and um less and less influential and and so on. It’s a transition period and the
166. 22:12 Palestinians are paying the price of this transition. There’s a lot of talk of um a global parliament um a global
167. 22:20 president, you know, more than the UN, something increasing of that. Um the
168. 22:26 states will no longer hold power on their own. This has been a sort of rumbling for a while. Um I I think
169. 22:34 that’s an Orwellian sort of concept. I don’t think it would work. I don’t see how it would work. um how n national
170. 22:42 identity can be scrubbed out that easily. Um I I feel it’s a fantasy and
171. 22:48 it’s a fantasy by people who who believe, you know, as Thomas Moore did in utopia. But we’ve got a lot of marches. We’ve got a lot of charities.
172. 22:59 We’ve got a lot of people walking on the streets. You know, Palestine will be free from the river to the sea. And you know I’m wondering if this is having any effect on the people in parliament whatsoever. Even influential figures in
173. 23:14 you know Hollywood Kate Blanchet she wore a dress um which opened up to show
174. 23:20 the Palestinian flag. So it’s kind of you know it’s this kind of thing that’s
175. 23:26 happening this sort of global support of Palestine. Um and I’m just wondering how
176. 23:32 far that will go whether that will save anyone. I’ve seen children from Palestine, three or four have been taken
177. 23:39 to Detroit, um, orphans, but three or four orphans with their legs half blown off. As beautiful as it is that they get a second chance, you know, there are thousands and thousands left behind. So, what do we do there? And as you say, one
178. 23:55 of them has to go. But how can you possibly choose between a bunch of innocent people who goes and who
179. 24:01 doesn’t? It’s an impossible choice. Uh, you have to make someone the evil aggressor. You have to make someone the
180. 24:08 narcissistic dictator. I think we should distinguish between pro Palestine
181. 24:14 messaging and anti-semitic messaging. Pro Palestine messaging is completely
182. 24:20 inefficious. It will have zero impact. It will not change the situation even minimally. It’s just a form of
183. 24:26 narcissistic virtue signaling and all kinds of other I I it’s complete utter
184. 24:32 unmititigated border dash. That’s the propestian side. The anti-semitic side though stands a chance of ending the carnage in Gaza.
185. 24:44 The anti-semitic side because there’s growing anti-semitism on both left and
186. 24:50 right. Yes, definitely. Absolutely. And that’s the only thing that can hold Israel back. Should anti-semitism, for example, infiltrate the hallowed chambers of
187. 25:01 governance in the United States? Should many congressmen become anti-semitic? Should Apoch be exposed as a
188. 25:07 manipulating manipulative body? Should should there be plain open vanilla
189. 25:13 hatred of the Jews or and their alleged control and manipulation and so on so forth? that would restrain and constrain the Jewish state. So the Palestinians
190. 25:24 only hope is the growing tide of anti-semitism, not propalestinian
191. 25:30 activism. That’s how I see it. No, I understand what you’re saying and that there is a huge tidal wave of anti-semitic propaganda across social media, even on news channels. Al Jazzer at the moment is pumping out content
192. 25:46 that about Gaza, about the Middle East. Um, obviously we know it’s Saudi owned and journalism should be, you know,
193. 25:53 impartial, but it, you know, the undertone is anti-semitic. Uh, although I, you know, a lot of what they report
194. 26:00 is is not being reported in British outlets or European outlets. So, I
195. 26:07 appreciate Alazer for that on one side. So it it’s a very difficult one to distinguish between, but personally I
196. 26:15 can’t help thinking of, you know, nurse Hamza going to work every day helping
197. 26:21 pull bullets out of the brain of three-year-old children, you know, trying to stitch together a woman whose baby has been shot to bits and died
198. 26:32 within her womb. And that to me, you know, that to me means something. And I
199. 26:38 want that to stop. and I hope that it does within a diplomatic way. Whether
200. 26:44 that can ever be achieved, I know I know there’s been meetings held this morning. Um whether it will come to something,
201. 26:51 who knows? But the US is against it, as you know, they’re against a Palestinian state. So, if the US is against it, I
202. 26:58 really don’t see a way that it could it could be um you know, created. The Palestinians are in a bad spot right now. The balance of power is definitely tilted in favor of of Israel. Israel’s
203. 27:10 extremely powerful allies and so on. And again, the only hope for Palestinians at least is that anti-semitism will change
204. 27:17 the equation and people will begin to say, well, you know, we hate these Jews and we hate what these Jews are doing
205. 27:23 and the hell with the Jewish state. This is what this is what happened in World War II. And this is what happened previously when the Jews the Jews were completely obliterated and you know we all felt sorry for their cause. And it
206. 27:39 feels almost as if history is repeating itself in in a sense. So, it’s it’s it’s
207. 27:46 quite upsetting though to see that the gardens have been systematically starved by Israelis because then that only lends itself to anti-semitism and anti-Israel
208. 27:59 propaganda. Yes. I think we should distinguish two strands of thinking and two emotional
209. 28:05 strands in the in the Israeli street. There are those who believe that Palestinians are in existential threat
210. 28:12 and these people uh got a boost on October 7th. So they they’re reacting blindly. They are reacting hysterically.
211. 28:23 They are fighting back and um they they there are no norms. There are no rules.
212. 28:30 There are no laws. It’s just to survive. You know, you do whatever it takes to survive. Mhm. And the only way to survive in the
213. 28:36 minds of these people and these people are the majority of Israelis. Don’t pay attention to the demonstrations and the
214. 28:42 protests and because the the western media is magnifying and amplifying these. This is the minority. There are also protests in Israel that there are people talking about they are
215. 28:54 burning their military papers saying this. This is a negligible minority.
216. 29:02 The vast majority of Israelis consider Palestinians wherever they may be as an existential threat and they are be they
217. 29:11 after October 7th they have adopted the implicit belief that the only way to get
218. 29:17 rid of these existential threat threat or secure survival is by exterminating the Palestinians. And this is the the majority view. There’s
219. 29:29 another strand and that’s a minority strand that says this is one heck of an opportunity. There’s a confluence of events and personalities such as Donald Trump and so on. And so this is our
220. 29:40 opportunity to reestablish the greater Israel. But that’s that’s again a fringe
221. 29:46 movement. The majority of Israelis are terrified, are in panic, are not thinking straight. they just want to
222. 29:53 survive and and they have adopted a genocidal um point of view. Even even though the
223. 30:01 majority of them would deny that they would say we’re not genocidal, we don’t want to kill all the Palestinians and so
224. 30:07 on so forth. The truth is they do. And this is very reminiscent of what has happened in Nazi Germany when Hitler and his henchmen succeeded to convince the German people that the Jews are in existential threat to Germany.
225. 30:23 Not not merely an adversary, not merely the other, not merely different, but an
226. 30:29 existential threat. They’re they’re reset. He he convinced the Germans that the Jews are fixated and obsessed with destroying Germany. And he had this whole theory. There are two master races, the Germans and the Jews, and they’re fighting it over uh global
227. 30:45 control. And the Judeo-Christian tradition is a manipulative ploy to um weaken the Aryan race. And he had this
228. 30:53 narrative which made sense, you know, in the eyes of the Germans. And then they said, “The Jews are out to get us. They
229. 30:59 out to kill us. They’re out to destroy us. We need to kill them first.” But is that not what the Israelis are now
230. 31:06 saying about the Palestinians? And that is now becoming the similar mindset. And can I just you know read something that in when Israel was initially populated
231. 31:18 by the Jews um one of the founding fathers said you know the British warned us of the n-word
232. 31:29 um that were living on the land but they did not warn us about the Arabs. The Arabs are just as bad as the n-words. we
233. 31:36 need to obliterate them. And that was a very long time ago. And look what’s
234. 31:42 happening now. And it’s it’s very sad to see considering they they could share the land peacefully. Initially when the state has been established, the Israeli state has been established in 1948 and later. Initially
235. 31:55 there was no perception of of an existential fight. There was a perception of territorial fight like
236. 32:03 how how much of the territory can we annex and how much of a territory can we conquer and how much of a territory can
237. 32:09 we ethnically cleanse but there was a a long tradition of coexistence for example in mixed cities
238. 32:15 such as Hifa and so on so people the Jews were acquainted with Palestinians
239. 32:22 and Palestinians were acquainted with the Jews and the belief was we’re fighting over territory it’s as simple
240. 32:28 so there was perception of existential threat. But now there is. And now the Jews have
241. 32:35 adopted the mindset that Palestinians are out to
242. 32:41 kill all of them. No exception. And so we should kill them first. I think it’s limited to Hamas. I think
243. 32:47 it’s limited to extremist groups. But I do think that the mindset will grow um
244. 32:53 among the Palestinians and definitely has now that you know the Israelis are out to get us and we will kill them first and there will there will be bloodthirsty for Israelis. That will
245. 33:05 happen naturally. But I do think initially it was limited to the terrorists Hamas. I wouldn’t say that because in October 7th we saw 2,000 civilians cross the border fence and killing with abundant
246. 33:17 and joy. I disagree and I think the uh there’s a major
247. 33:25 difference between Israelis and Palestinians which in the very long run should work uh in the favor of the Palestinians. The Palestinians inevitably are grounded
248. 33:37 in reality, blood, sweat and tears, you know, they they can’t afford to disengage from reality. they can’t afford to. Whereas the Israelis are completely
249. 33:48 immorted, completely immersed in fantasy. And this is why the Israelis
250. 33:55 can’t see the big picture. They It’s like October 7th. I am not justifying October 7th. Of course, it’s uh these were horrific atrocities and it’s never
251. 34:06 ever justified killing civilians. And as you said, you know, 2,000 civilians were joyful at that time. Yes.
252. 34:14 So, it’s never justified. However, you can’t you can’t take it out of context.
253. 34:20 It was reactive to something. It was reactive to what had preceded it. And what has preceded it is decades of oppression and and and assassinations and killings and and so the Israelists
254. 34:33 can’t see the connection. Honestly, they’re not pretending. They just can’t see the connection. It’s like because
255. 34:40 they live in a fantasy. And in this fantasy, they’re treating the Palestinians humanely. They’ve given the
256. 34:46 Palestinians money. They elevate they’re elevating the Palestinians standard of
257. 34:52 living. Palestinians should be grateful. And here they are biting the hand that feeds them, killing off Israeli civilians. And Israelis believe this
258. 35:03 demented narrative. They are completely into it, which is of course Yeah. It’s it’s everywhere. You see it
259. 35:09 everywhere. It’s this it’s it’s this narrative that what they are doing is correct. Their way of living is correct.
260. 35:16 Um their religion is is above all and it so much superiority. It’s just we are
261. 35:22 good people. Why are you doing this to us? And they can’t stand back and say I mean majority of them and there’s a
262. 35:28 small minority that do but majority can’t stand back and say we’re actually mistreating these people. But I’m going
263. 35:35 to say the thing now that you’re not meant to say. Just because you have been previously persecuted does not exonerate
264. 35:42 you from your future crimes. It does not automatically give you the stamp of goodness. It gives it gives you the
265. 35:49 stamp of sympathy. It gives you the stamp of okay well you now should enjoy liberties that you have previously been denied. But it does not automatically make you good. And I am sorry. Children
266. 36:01 being killed, innocent people being killed on either way. I I cannot condone
267. 36:07 that for any reason, for any for any justification. I agree on both sides. So, and both
268. 36:14 sides adopt this justification. They say we’re being persecuted and so they this gives us the right to kill civilians of the other party. Of course, Israelis are much bigger, much stronger, so they kill many more. But the principle is the same. uh Hamas and its uh accompllices
269. 36:30 they said the same we are being oppressed we are being massacred we are being slaughtered and so this gives us a
270. 36:36 right to kill civilians no one has a right to kill civilians it’s a crime and Israel is a bigger criminal now quantitatively so but qualitatively they
271. 36:47 both have the same the same story I feel don’t you feel though that the reaction to Ukraine I mean we had news readers crying we had all all of this,
272. 36:58 you know, emotive images of struggling Ukrainians, uh, you know, an evil Russia, an evil
273. 37:06 Putin. I feel Israel’s doing exactly the same, but we’re not getting the same imagery. We’re not being fed the same
274. 37:12 narrative. And that what that’s what concerns me ultimately being a journalist about the media. I mean,
275. 37:19 there the Independent seems to be one of the few papers that actually really says what needs to be said. Al Jazzer obviously as we know also but you know
276. 37:30 the majority of newspapers are not reporting it as front page news. Um Ukraine was front page news for as long
277. 37:36 as I could remember because Palestinians have had a bad rep for many decades. The Palestinians were
278. 37:42 intimately linked with international terrorism. Palestinians are Muslim. It’s there’s there’s a bed
279. 37:50 rep thing here. And uh but then isn’t that isn’t that you know Islamophobia as you say about
280. 37:56 anti-semitism isn’t that Islamophobia which is rife you know since the seven seven attacks
281. 38:02 in the UK the twin towers you know obviously that Islamophobia exploded
282. 38:09 after that and almost rightly so these were horrific events um but I feel like
283. 38:15 there’s still a thread of this there’s an undercurrent of this through you know western the nations and the colonial universe. It’s it’s part of a much bigger picture
284. 38:26 of rejecting the other. The first the first global movement of immigrants were the Jews. The Jews were expelled from Palestine at the time and then they had
285. 38:37 they spread all over the world because the Romans the Roman Empire that exiled the Jews and then spread them all over.
286. 38:44 So they were the first immigrants and this created anti-semitism in effect. And now we have anti-immigrant movements
287. 38:50 which are directed at Jews, directed at Muslims, directed at the other, any
288. 38:56 other. So it’s an anti- other alter altering, you know, alter
289. 39:02 um um movement and um Palestinians are paying the price for that too.
290. 39:09 Mhm. But there’s no denying that Palestinians have made strategic choices in the especially in the 60s and 70s and
291. 39:17 to some extent the 80s strategic choices to ally themselves to associate themselves with international terrorism
292. 39:23 and and so on so forth. Whether these were were wise moves still is still open
293. 39:29 for debate. I think these were stupid moves because they tarnished the Palestinian cause for for good in
294. 39:35 effect. So you can find many Americans saying Palestinians. Oh, they’re terrorists, you know, and and so on.
295. 39:41 But I feel Western terrorists are not called terrorists. They’re just called freedom fighters or murderers or one
296. 39:48 insane people or a group of insane people. Whereas if somebody Islamic were to commit the same crime, the word terrorism would immediately come up. So,
297. 39:59 you know, as as much as what you’re saying is correct, maybe there were wrong choices back in those days, but at
298. 40:06 the same time, there were many other countries involved involved with that fight against Israel. So, you know,
299. 40:14 it’s just it’s it’s it’s been it’s been an issue in the Middle East for a very long time, as we’ve both said. And
300. 40:20 whether it will be solved is is, you know, maybe this is the moment.
301. 40:26 Maybe this is the moment where things finally crunch. Who knows? I doubt it very much. I think uh on the
302. 40:34 very contrary, I think uh I think uh the Palestinians are only beginning to pay
303. 40:40 the price and not necessarily in terms of of lives. Maybe that will seize, but
304. 40:47 politically and geopolitically, they’re only beginning to pay the price. And you see the recent initiative to dislocate
305. 40:53 Palestinians from Gaza and transform it into a Riviera. That’s only the beginning. It’s only the
306. 40:59 beginning because many many Arab countries are willing to make peace with
307. 41:06 Israel by sacrificing the Palestinians. So I wouldn’t be surprised that there will be population exchanges in the West Bank and so on. So I think the Palestinians are about to pay a horrific price. Um, nurse Hamza was telling me
308. 41:21 that they are moving people south. Um, they’re moving a lot of people south. I don’t know if that’s
309. 41:27 particularly safer. He appears to have a safer life. He’s living in absolute poverty, but he appears to have a safer
310. 41:33 life than um other people. Um, he was um nearby to the bombing of the NASA
311. 41:40 hospital um you know, where they say Hermes was holding. Um so so who knows on that front. Um but I I really to me I just
312. 41:53 hope that if there is a relocation process happening with Palestinians that it does it’s it’s done in a humane way
313. 42:02 and I hope that people will not starve to death and children will not starve to death. That that’s the thing to me that
314. 42:09 is most important that those the children those innocent kids who don’t know what’s going on who are trying to
315. 42:15 sell sweets on the street to make money so they can look after their brothers and sisters because their parents have
316. 42:22 been killed by in attacks you know it’s those children that I want to see free and to me that’s the most important whether they were Palestinian or Israeli that that that’s the most important
317. 42:34 it’s very difficult to put a human face to geopolitics and geostrategy. It’s very difficult to humanize this because
318. 42:42 you can try you can try and humanize but it’s um it’s not working because geostrategy and geopolitics is not about human beings. It’s about collectives and it is an
319. 42:54 accepted maxim that human beings should sacrifice their lives for the collective. That the collective prevails
320. 43:00 that it’s a collective we should defend that is a collective. Is that not a more communist way of thinking then? No, absolutely not. What do you mean?
321. 43:06 American soldiers have died in Europe. The the individual the individual benefits from, you know, sacrificing for
322. 43:13 the collective. It’s always the collective. As long as the collective survives and individuals,
323. 43:19 it’s always the collective. Nazi Germany, communism, America, whose soldiers are dying everywhere around the world, Israel, it’s always the collective. Ultimately,
324. 43:31 the individuals are not are not relevant. That’s why we have the crime of genocide because it’s a threat of the
325. 43:37 extension extension of the collective not the individuals. It’s a collective that is threatened. And that’s why
326. 43:44 I think that that’s what makes people mentally hyper aware of their own insignificance. The fact that it’s the collective and not the individual. Our lives are very insignificant. We are mere ants in the grand scheme of things.
327. 43:59 Yet we’re living as though we were important and we are just part of this huge wheel. We are but a tiny cog. So,
328. 44:10 you know, that that’s that’s what’s concerning about it. And what you’re saying now, you know, it it does it does
329. 44:16 resonate and it it does almost make one feel as if, you know, going to work and
330. 44:22 being on the the hamster wheel daily is is even a worthy a worthy pastime even
331. 44:28 even for the the mere nuts that we receive as compensation. It’s supply and demand. There’s 8.3
332. 44:36 billion individuals and there are a few thousand collectives. So collectives are much more rare.
333. 44:42 They are they are almost an extinct species. So of course we’re protecting collectives much more than individuals because individuals are manufactured every single day. And there’s individuals make up collectives
334. 44:53 not the individual the collective would not exist. But they’re funible. They are easily replaceable. Should you die tomorrow,
335. 44:59 there’ll be another 60 women born that very second. I mean so who cares?
336. 45:06 Individuals individuals are replaceable. They’re funible. They are dispensable
337. 45:12 and they’re disposable because we make so many of them. There’s 8.3 billion supply and demand. There’s inflation. Inflation. We’re given we’re given the idea that the individual is important. We’re given this grandiose idea that what we do as
338. 45:30 an individual absolutely matters. We are special. We we are we are full of magic and potential. We are full of chakras. We can manifest. We can make we can create our own little universe that that
339. 45:42 responds to our thoughts only. You know th this is the narrative we have been given. And I guess that allows us to survive the collective and the ultimate dreary feeling that we mean nothing.
340. 45:56 Even this narrative is is is in even this narrative is conducive to the goals of the collective. You are given this narrative to pacify you.
341. 46:07 Yes. tend to channel your energies in ways which benefit the collective ultimately not you.
342. 46:13 It doesn’t benefit you because at the end of the day you are 65 or whatever you retire uh you’re sick your savings are not enough. I mean the individuals
343. 46:25 lead nasty brutish wretched lives. In that case why not take the satanistic hedonistic point of view and just do whatever the [ __ ] you want? You can’t.
344. 46:36 The collective won’t allow that. I mean, you may die, but they will
345. 46:42 eliminate you one way or another. They will they will warehouse you in in a in the warehouse known as prison or they
346. 46:48 will simply kill you or whatever. Your your life has meaning and
347. 46:54 importance only as long as you conform 100% to the goals of the collective, the
348. 47:00 evershifting goals of the collective and the elites that control the levers and the machinery of the collective.
349. 47:06 Just like the end of 1984, um he loved big brother.
350. 47:12 Every every year in human history had had been 1984. The only difference is that sometimes we were not aware of
351. 47:18 that. we were blind to it and sometimes we were not. But there hasn’t been a single year in human history which had not been 1984.
352. 47:26 But if we are not if we’re not blind to it, um then we end up in a state of
353. 47:32 depression and are fed drugs by the medical industry to try and pacify us and allow us to exist in the collective
354. 47:39 without those thoughts before being institutional in institutionalized
355. 47:45 um for those thoughts. That’s a western state of mind. The concept of individual is new, relatively
356. 47:51 new. The very idea of an individual, it’s very new. It’s renaissance. Look at social media. It’s all about the
357. 47:58 individual. It’s all about me me. It’s all about, you know, what can I do to to make myself known on here and this will maybe get me a job or this will get me a sponsorship or notice or this brand will
358. 48:10 work with me or my someone will go my only fans and pay. Social media is not about the individual. Social media is about how could the individual fit into the collective and leverage the collective.
359. 48:21 It’s not about the individual at all. I feel it’s a collective of individuals. Social media teaches individuals how to
360. 48:28 fit into the collective, leverage the collective, benefit from the collective and so on so forth. It’s not
361. 48:35 to feel more individual than ever. Social social media makes you feel more
362. 48:43 individual on condition that you fit into the collective. If for example you’re using social media which is a collective endeavor and you’re communicating with millions of other people which is a collective
363. 48:53 endeavor. There’s no existence to you without other people but in an individual way. People join
364. 49:03 they want to see you. They want to hear what you have to say. But what am I without the viewers?
365. 49:09 You you are nothing. So it’s a collective endeavor. But then you are also something within
366. 49:15 yourself as an individual without social media. If you delve deep in you will discover
367. 49:22 that you are absolutely nothing and nobody without other people dust. Nothing but dust. Say
368. 49:28 nothing without other people. And it’s constructed this way. The individual the concept of individual as I said is very
369. 49:35 new. It started with the Renaissance and and reached its peak in the 1950s and and so on. It’s extremely new concept
370. 49:41 and it does not existence in countries such as China or Japan or you know they would yeah def yeah I mean having gone to China um and Japan I’ve seen that the
371. 49:52 difference in the way they work in in in their attitude towards work um even
372. 49:58 shopping and it’s it’s it’s ailiation yeah I found it more peaceful in some in some
373. 50:04 ways if you submit to the collective that would be Islam that’s Islam Islam is
374. 50:12 submission it’s also Christianity and Judaism much lesser extent Christianity is about
375. 50:18 the deification of the individual Christianity gave gave rise to the Renaissance pretty directly and we can
376. 50:25 discuss monotheism monotheism in general was a horrendous idea and and took us astray well polytheism sort of started to die out uh you know that that was the norm
377. 50:36 polytheism was the norm and it started to die out. But monotheism has its roots in polytheism. Monotheism monotheism is didn’t have its roots in polytheism. It was the the antithesis. It was the negation of polytheism. But polytheism was tolerant
378. 50:54 whereas monotheism is non tolerant. Monotheism says my god is the only god.
379. 51:00 Your god is not a god. And if you say differently I’m going to kill you. But it feels like we are living in a polytheistic world where the gods won’t hold hands. It’s kind of
380. 51:11 the gods won’t hold hands. That’s how I feel. I mean, it’s a polytheistic world. It, you know, we’ve got Allah, we’ve got
381. 51:17 God, we’ve got um the Jewish God, we’ve got everything. But, you know, just holds. Not we. Not we. The Jews have the Jewish
382. 51:24 God. Muslims have Allah. Uh Christians have Jesus. It’s not we. We is the collective. If I may. No, no. The collective doesn’t have any of these gods. Groups within the
383. 51:35 collective has the has these gods. These gods are not shared. Um, no Christian would tell you that Allah is acceptable
384. 51:41 to him. No, of course not. But well, have you seen life of pie?
385. 51:47 Listen, monotheism is about is exclusionary. It’s about the exclusion of other people’s gods. But I feel you
386. 51:54 can take parts of each religion and believe parts of each religion but you
387. 52:00 don’t have to subscribe to one. And the film life of P as we know is about that. It’s about taking you could do many things but this is not how things are. I mean these fantasies
388. 52:11 utopia is a word that means no place utopia. No such place. These are not how
389. 52:17 things are. People adhere to a single god, defend this god to the death, kill other people in the name of that god. This is how things are all over the world. Yeah. Since the crusades and everything, and this is monotheism. Monotheism brought intolerance into the world.
390. 52:34 Monotheism brought aggression into the world. Monotheism is also highly personalized. You have a personal
391. 52:42 relationship with the god, whichever god. Oh, well that that could be argued
392. 52:48 that with Catholicism and um Protestants um actually your personal relationship with God changed with being a Protestant. With Catholicism it was more
393. 53:00 for for the king for for the you know the aristocracy. They could commune with
394. 53:06 God but the Protestants could not. So they they could sorry. So, it’s more
395. 53:12 it’s more about how the religion has changed over time to allow people to have a personal relationship with God.
396. 53:19 That wasn’t always a thing in monotheism. Yes. In uh in Christianity,
397. 53:25 in all monotheistic religions from the very inception, there has been a personal relationship
398. 53:31 with God. This personal relationship could have been could be mediated. There were mediators.
399. 53:38 But if you take Catholicism, the communion is about eating God, subsuming God, becoming one with God by consuming God’s blood and God’s uh flesh
400. 53:49 is absolutely a direct interaction with God. And dispersonalization of religion
401. 53:55 was a major disaster because it created grandio delusions. It gave rise to
402. 54:02 narcissism, to a sense of omnipotence, to um self
403. 54:09 self-justification like I’m I I the only one with access to the truth and so on
404. 54:15 so forth. Monotheism was a seriously bad idea. Seriously, not only in terms of intolerance and the personal relationship with God, but in in terms of the distributed nature of monotheism.
405. 54:28 Whereas previous religions were localized, they were local religions. It was a a way to control people. So you
406. 54:35 know, monotheism controls people in a way that polytheism didn’t. It’s you will come to church on this day. You will follow these commandments. You will follow these rules. And this is how a
407. 54:47 good person lives. And it was enshrined into law. And still some of our laws today come from Christian doctrine. And in Islamic countries, Islam Islamic
408. 54:58 doctrine um you know in fact purely in in places like Afghanistan
409. 55:04 um Saudi Arabia they they live by the Islamic doctrine completely. So it’s
410. 55:11 it’s really this is how you control people by by doing this. And it’s less
411. 55:17 about worship and personal praise and spirituality than about total control.
412. 55:24 Yeah. The the confluence of of politics and monotheism gave rise to all the the ills and the
413. 55:32 problems we have today. And that is that brings us back to Israel and Palestine. quite Donald Trump
414. 55:38 and and the evangelical community in the United States. Yeah, exactly. So, I I feel like we’ve, you
415. 55:45 know, we’ve just run out of time for this one, but I will say, you know, I think we’ve rounded it out into
416. 55:52 essentially these are two monotheistic heads butting against each other and one
417. 55:58 Israel happens to be larger and stronger than the other at this moment. um Hamas
418. 56:04 is um a pin in the side of the Gazen people and I feel unless those hostages
419. 56:11 are released if they are still alive at all um who knows the actual truth of
420. 56:17 that because journalists aren’t allowed in um I think they should be then you
421. 56:23 know it’s going to continue as you say and I think you’re right on that I agree with you that this is religious
422. 56:29 conflict yes absolutely it’s a religious conflict But monotheism gave rise ironically to the cult of the individual to the cult of the leader.
423. 56:40 This happened in the in the Renaissance. People think that the Renaissance was a break with religion. Renaissance was not
424. 56:47 a break with religion. It was a redefinition of religion. It was another way to be religious. And the individual
425. 56:55 and the and the charismatic leader became the new gods, the new the new underpinnings. But ever since mono mon monotheism has been introduced we really
426. 57:06 began to have a a bad period in history. We and now leaders modern leaders like
427. 57:13 Donald Trump and and not only Trump of course Putin Netanyahu Modi Oban you all
428. 57:19 these leaders populist leaders I mean Modi is getting more press you know with his meeting with Gutin but we we’ll
429. 57:26 discuss that in our in our next segment. So all these all these leaders they they
430. 57:34 are forms this is a form of secular monotheism secular religion
431. 57:40 where the leader has a direct personal relationship with God where the religion is intolerant the political religion the secular religion is intolerant it’s an imitation
432. 57:51 emulation of monotheism and consequently the leader is allowed
433. 57:58 because he is an extension of God and direct communication with God or whatever protected by God.
434. 58:04 He’s allowed to be negative. He’s allowed to express negative emotions. He
435. 58:11 legitimizes negativity. He legitimizes aggression. He raifies, personifies it, leverages it, exercises it. Suddenly negative effects or negative emotions
436. 58:22 like envy, like hatred, like rage, they’re suddenly okay. And they’re okay
437. 58:30 because monotheism and politics became one in the personality of the leader.
438. 58:36 Yeah. Exactly. If you go to the United States today, they talk about Trump as if he were the second coming. Yeah, definitely. And because because he said, you know, I will be
439. 58:47 voted in again, you know, people now think like, you know, wow, this man says something and it happens. He makes things happen. And he’s the assassination attempt also where God
440. 58:58 protected him and you know of of course and people were wearing these these stupid things on their ears.
441. 59:04 It’s ridiculous. But before we go um I would like to just quickly um shamelessly plug my book. Um you’ve read you’ve read
442. 59:16 it yourself. Um what what are your thoughts on it? Just quickly. Well, I describe my thoughts in in what
443. 59:22 I’ve sent you. Show show it to the camera. a uh voyeristic to divorce.
444. 59:28 Yes, it’s um it’s called Bitter Sequins. It’s available on Amazon, hardback and soft
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446. 59:45 And also there’s some very personal stories about female genital mutilation or FGM. Um it actually happened to my
447. 59:53 aunt. So, this is something very close to my heart and I would love it if people could read it, rate it. It may
448. 60:00 not be for everyone, but um there nine short stories in there. Some of them are very saucy and one of them involves a um
449. 60:09 patient who gets very involved with her psychiatrist, so you don’t want to give that one a miss. Okay. Amazon $12.99.
450. 60:16 Best money you’ve ever spent. The male characters are also interesting. I I wouldn’t say it’s it’s a feminine thing. It’s a the male
451. 60:22 characters are interesting there. The Yeah, I’ve tried to capture the male mind. I don’t know how well I’ve done
452. 60:28 it, but um Well, at least the male actions you did definitely. But yeah, it’s it’s been a
453. 60:35 pleasure as always and um I will see you for our next segment. Thank you.
454. 60:41 Thank you.