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1. 00:00 right now in a minute. I will start recording in a minute. Okay, great. So, I hope I don't look
2. 00:08 very I didn't have much time to prepare physically. You look very summery. Summary.
3. 00:15 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Although I've been only two times on a beach like small kids and everything.
4. 00:21 You don't have much time. Okay. So, yeah. Uh first I want to say it's a very big honor for me to speak
5. 00:28 with you uh especially uh because I follow you for a long time on a Tik Tok
6. 00:34 and I think you are very um you truly um describe the border lines the narcissist as u the people you get into the layers
7. 00:46 like you yeah so uh it's a very beginner for me and also um I think this is uh
8. 00:56 maybe one of the most underrated topics when we speak about narcissists and
9. 01:02 psychopaths and sociopaths and um some of the local psychiatrists and psychologists um have told to me oh like we wouldn't want to do this we don't want to like tackle them or you know
10. 01:15 because it's about people in a position so um I would like maybe to start with
11. 01:21 the first question if you agree and that It's a good idea to start with the first question.
12. 01:27 Okay. So, um why individuals such as narcissists, such as psychopaths,
13. 01:34 sociopaths uh gravitate towards uh the professions that give them power um we
14. 01:41 can say in the society or uh between the others or um make the others dependable
15. 01:48 on or dependent on them. So it can be like politics, it can be military, it
16. 01:54 can be uh healthcare or um social services also I will say educational
17. 02:00 systems and of course um medicine, love and um etc.
18. 02:07 Mhm. To answer your question, we need to we need to discuss two concepts in
19. 02:13 pathological narcissism. The first concept is pathological narcissistic space. Pathological narcissistic space
20. 02:21 is a physical space or a cyber space where the narcissist succeeds to
21. 02:28 generate attention not known as narcissistic supply.
22. 02:34 Mhm. So it could be it could be the local pub, it could be the church, it could be the family, or it could be a
23. 02:41 forum online where the narcissist succeeds to convince people that he or
24. 02:48 she is unique, superior, a genius, amazing, um knows everything,
25. 02:57 omniscient, is all powerful, etc. godlike. Mhm. And this is the pathological
26. 03:03 narcissistic space. As far as narcissists are concerned, the workplace is a pathological narcissistic space.
27. 03:10 Narcissists do everything. All their behaviors are concerned or geared to a single
28. 03:18 goal, obtaining narcissistic supply. Yeah. Narcissism, pathological narcissism is a form of self-enhancement. Narcissistic supply is just a fancy
29. 03:30 word, fancy phrase for attention. So a narcissist would seek attention. However, there are multiple types of
30. 03:37 narcissistic supply. Narcissistic supply could be positive, but could could also be negative. For example, if someone is afraid of the narcissist, that's a form
31. 03:48 of narcissistic supply also. And so controlled by the fear actually.
32. 03:56 Yes. And the people sorry um um the people the individuals that are attracted by
33. 04:03 the narcissist especially when we are because um always when we are talking about narcissists narcissistic supply we
34. 04:11 usually look at them like from a love position like from a partner and everything. But um can we say that the
35. 04:20 uh they are chasing for the people that have um like low self-esteem or um they
36. 04:28 attract flying monkeys also in the their workplace. Narcissists don't chase anyone and narcissists have no preference and no specific type. It's exactly the opposite. Some people some types of
37. 04:40 people chase the narcissist. So it's some groups of people, some
38. 04:46 types of people have a preference to have relationships with narcissist. Whereas a narcissist couldn't care less
39. 04:52 who you are. He cares about what you can give him. If you can give the narcissist
40. 04:59 attention supply, narcissistic supply, if you can give the narcissist services,
41. 05:06 if you can give the narcissist sex, if you can give the narcissist stability and safety, a sense of security, I call
42. 05:14 these the four S's. If you give the narcissist two of these four, then you're in. You got the job. He couldn't
43. 05:22 care less if you're empathic and nice and kind. if you are narcissistic and psychopathic yourself if he doesn't care
44. 05:30 at all. The opposite, however, is true. Certain types of people are attracted to
45. 05:37 narcissists. These are people with some mental health issues and problems. For
46. 05:43 example, people with borderline personality disorder, people with dependent personality disorder, also
47. 05:49 known as codependent. These are people maybe who are undergoing a crisis, a life crisis. they broke up with with the
48. 05:57 loved one or they lost a loved one or so they are in a crisis and they're very vulnerable, very weak.
49. 06:04 People um people pleasers would be attracted to narcissist. So specific types of people would be attracted to
50. 06:11 the narcissist and then the narcissist asks only one question. What's in it for me? What am I getting? What can you give me? Yeah. And uh Kier maybe briefly explain um maybe the main differences between um psychopaths uh
51. 06:29 sociopaths and narcissists uh when uh they aim towards these
52. 06:35 careers as I mentioned before. So maybe um uh is it like for the psychopaths
53. 06:41 they like the power, they like the social status, they like their image also for um narcissists too. So it like
54. 06:50 um for example if they uh you know how here in Balkans we have like traditional structures. So uh doctors are like um very um cherished they are uh very uh
55. 07:03 respected. So when you go to the doctor like you always bring chocolate money like the greatest wine you have in your
56. 07:09 house and everything. So can we say that it enables them also um to paint uh
57. 07:17 perfect but a false picture of themsel like they paint themsel like a perfect white sheep but they are actually the wolf in a sheep's clothing.
58. 07:28 So like they kind of get the social image and they also get the other people
59. 07:34 to be dependent on them. So they have the power to choose for the other people. There's no such thing as sociopath. Sociopath is just the old word for
60. 07:46 psychopath. Mhm. In academies and so on. We don't use the word
61. 07:53 sociopath. This is something in the media and on Tik Tok maybe. But there is of course psychopath and narcissist. The psychopath exactly as you said is concerned with power. But
62. 08:06 the psychopath couldn't care less what other people think about him. The psychopath is not interested in being
63. 08:13 respected, being appreciated, in attention. The psychopath is interested in manipulating people, coercing people
64. 08:22 and getting things out of people. He wants to take people's money. He wants to have sex with people. He wants to
65. 08:28 force people to behave in highly specific ways which are beneficial to the psychopath. So psychopath is
66. 08:34 concerned with people as instrument. He instrumentalizes people. He objectifies
67. 08:40 people. I'm saying he because majority of psychopaths are men.
68. 08:46 The narcissist on the other hand is focused on and concerned with a single thing narcissistic supply attention.
69. 08:54 Whatever the narcissist does he does in order to gain attention to garner
70. 09:00 attention. Do they want to be praised? They want not necessarily, but they want to be noticed.
71. 09:06 They they want to be perceived as unique. They don't necessarily want to be praised. For example, if you if
72. 09:13 you're afraid of a narcissist, that's okay. That's narcissistic supply. If you think that the narcissist is
73. 09:20 diabolically evil, that's great. That's narcissistic supply. If you uh So,
74. 09:27 any kind of attention is like feeding them. Yes. No matter if it's like it's like um
75. 09:33 publicity either way is it negative or positive it's still like publicity so they are
76. 09:39 noticed. Yeah. And um why are um why
77. 09:45 many people associate the doctors and like lawyers with integrity and altruism
78. 09:52 and u why the people cannot uh perceive that uh majority maybe not even majority
79. 10:00 but um some percent of the doctors and the lawyers are actually psychopaths and narcissists because it's frightening.
80. 10:12 It's terrible. If you admit that there is a percentage of doctors and lawyers and law
81. 10:18 enforcement, police and and judges and politicians and educators, teachers and
82. 10:25 priests in church, clergy, if you admit that all these people that there's a big
83. 10:32 percentage, a small a big minority that are who are narcissistic or psychopathic, that's very frightening, don't you think? When you go to a hospital and you need
84. 10:43 treatment, if if you dare to think that your doctor is a psychopath, it's tough. Yeah. You're basically in the hands of
85. 10:50 someone. So, it's like better to live in a lie than to accept the reality as it is.
86. 10:57 This is just one more thing. This is an infantile defense. This is a defense of a child. A child, for example, can never
87. 11:05 admit that mother is bad and that father is evil. Can never admit. A child would would
88. 11:12 think that it is bad, it is evil, and that mother and father are perfect.
89. 11:18 Yeah. And that's actually when the narcissist traits are um being uh we can
90. 11:26 say uh forgot the world.
91. 11:32 But yeah, basically they develop in the childhood. So yeah and um I would ask
92. 11:38 you also are there any specific warning signs or behavior that um we can notice
93. 11:45 or look out for in identifying these individuals in the workplace
94. 11:51 depends a psychopath would be concerned with with power. So if you see someone who sacrifices everything for power, is immoral, has no moral, no ethics, is
95. 12:02 callous, ruthless, has zero empathy, doesn't mind our
96. 12:08 hurting and harming other people, tramples on other people on the way to a highly specific, well-defined goal, is
97. 12:14 obsessed with his goal, can think of nothing else, and acts impulsively,
98. 12:20 recklessly, defiantly, crazily to obtain the goal, that's likely a psychopath. If on the other hand you're they also can be very charming. So um yeah and manipulative and sometimes they
99. 12:33 can even convince you that they aren't doing anything bad that um they're actually going for a good things or uh
100. 12:40 they're having a purpose that is maybe bigger than everything else. And yeah
101. 12:47 yeah we call it pro-social. These are pro-social psychopaths or communal psychopaths. We also also the narcissist ones we have here. We also have pro-social narcissists and
102. 12:57 communal narcissist. These are people who pretend to be dogooders. They pretend to be good people. They pretend
103. 13:04 to be altruistic and charitable, compassionate and loving and empathic and moral, highly moral. And they they
104. 13:13 but they their pretentions pretentions are ostentatious. They do it in public. So it's like look at me. Look how much I help the poor. Look how much I love my
105. 13:24 family. They they insist on feedback. And the only way to know whether someone
106. 13:30 is a psychopath or a narcissist or whether someone is a really good person is that a really good person would not do it in public. Whereas a narcissist or a psychopath would seek compulsively
107. 13:44 exposure to the to the public. whatever he does he would make sure the public knows about it and admires him, adors
108. 13:50 him or is manipulated with it. So, uh can we also I would like to
109. 13:56 mention one example. Uh so, um I already mentioned they can be very manipulative,
110. 14:02 very uh charming when they are manipulating you. And um
111. 14:09 for example, one nurse, she can be very charming, very compassionate.
112. 14:15 um very uh emotional, very helpful towards her patients. Uh yet when she
113. 14:22 comes home, she can scream at the child, she can um abuse the child, she can
114. 14:28 fight or cheat uh her husband or her spouse. And uh then we have the problem
115. 14:34 that the victims are usually um it's very hard to trust them because uh
116. 14:42 what's on the outside is totally opposite to what's on the inside. So do
117. 14:48 they also choose the uh the careers that allow them to be around the people that are in need or um the people that need help such as nurses, social workers and
118. 15:00 etc. Yes. The narcissist encourages dependency in in other people and the
119. 15:07 psychopath even more so. But the difference between the narcissist and the psychopath is the narcissist uses fantasy. He creates a fantastic space which is divorced from reality, a dreamscape
120. 15:19 and then he introduces you into the fantasy and then you become emotionally invested in the fantasy. You become part
121. 15:26 of the fantasy and you don't want to go back to reality again. The power of the narcissist is in his ability to get you
122. 15:32 addicted to a fantasy. Whereas the psychopath rarely introduces a fantasy. Sometimes
123. 15:40 does, but it's more rare. What the psychopath does, for example, he intimidates you. He threatens you or he
124. 15:47 blackmails you. Or he he lures you. He baits you with promises of partnership.
125. 15:53 He say, "If you're with me, you will be rich. If you're with me, you will be strong. If you will be with me, you will
126. 16:00 be famous. You know, so a psychopath offers to you a partnership where his
127. 16:07 power becomes your power. Whereas a narcissist creates a total Disneyland
128. 16:13 within which you don't have to suffer reality anymore and you can be anything you want and you are perfect. He
129. 16:20 idealizes you. The psychopath does not idealize you. The narcissist does. So these are two different ways of rendering you dependent and an extension
130. 16:31 of these people and then you lose yourself. But it makes also um uh very uh harder
131. 16:38 for victims to like um gain the people's trust and to say yeah this is the person
132. 16:45 that is actually like doing me wrong. Like they can uh yell at me, they can
133. 16:52 cuss me, they can uh even punch me, like they can be physically or uh verbally
134. 16:58 aggressive. But uh no one believes them because they see that perfect picture
135. 17:04 like a mother that is a nurse that is praised by her patients, by her colleagues. So uh how can we say how can we notice that uh
136. 17:16 something isn't right that what we see isn't uh what the person is actually
137. 17:22 because they sh they show um their real selves only to the closest ones and
138. 17:28 those are the ones that suffer. So I don't think I don't think it's the real self. I think both both of these
139. 17:34 selves are real. Mhm. the in the first case there is an audience and in the second case there
140. 17:40 isn't. When there is an audience, the narcissist modifies his behavior or her
141. 17:46 behavior. And so a pro-social communal narcissist in having an audience would be a very nice person, a very kind and compassionate person, very empathic, very helpful, very altruistic, very
142. 17:56 charitable because this is the audience. This is the theater play. This is the movie that he's playing. When he comes
143. 18:03 back home, there's no audience. His family are extensions. They're instruments. They're tools. And if these tools misbehave, these instruments misbehave, they need to be
144. 18:15 controlled. So it's about control. And the control is very often through abuse and and trauma and dependency and very bad psychological processes. So I don't think the narcissist is less real when she's in a hospital as a nurse. I don't
145. 18:32 think so at all. I think both are real. Only the circumstances she created. Uh so she creates one
146. 18:40 persona for the inside world and the other one for the people who are already
147. 18:46 close to her. So she uh cannot they don't give her the supply anymore. So
148. 18:52 they're not an audience. They are instruments. Whereas the patients and the other
149. 18:58 doctors and the other nurses, they are an audience. It's like a theater. Like if you're acting in a theater, you will
150. 19:04 not be yourself. You will be the character in the play. you'll be the character in the movie because you have an audience. You you cannot be yourself in a theater play. That's very bad acting. Yeah.
151. 19:16 Yeah. I agree with you. And uh I also wanted to ask you um there can be some positive
152. 19:25 sides of like being a psychopath or a narcissist in the uh like career such as
153. 19:33 I don't maybe politics or law or anything because we know the psychopaths are mostly like um they don't perceive the threats or
154. 19:44 stress as the normal individuals do. So we can say they thrive in stressful
155. 19:50 environment. So uh can they actually be uh useful in a time of crisis or in a
156. 19:57 times where uh for example uh some company needs to like uh take the action
157. 20:05 immediately like uh decide or um maybe make some uh big decisions in a in a like um how to say
158. 20:18 short period of time. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. So we have uh first of all let's
159. 20:26 discuss the facts. The facts are the facts are that among chief executive officers of companies the percentage of psychopaths is much higher than in the population.
160. 20:37 Mhm. Among surgeons in hospitals, medical doctors who are surgeons, the percentage of psychopaths is much higher than in the general population. The percentage of psychopaths and even more so
161. 20:49 narcissists among prisoners is dramatically higher than in the general population prisoners in prison.
162. 20:56 So it is true that in certain professions and certain circumstances certain environments there are many more
163. 21:03 psychopaths and narcissists than not than in the average population in the normal population.
164. 21:10 There are many scholars, many academics who suggest that psychopathy and
165. 21:16 narcissism are positive adaptations from the evolutionary point of view in
166. 21:24 some situations, some circumstances exactly as you described. A psychopath or a narcissist would react optimally whereas a healthy normal person would not. Psychopaths, as you said, do not experience fear the same way we do. They
167. 21:41 do they do experience fear, but they don't react to fear the same way we do. And how do they experience it? Uh, and when do they experience it? Actually,
168. 21:53 we're discovering now recently that psychopaths are very anxious. They have anxiety disorder actually. And that they
169. 22:00 do experience fear. But when they experience fear, they develop something called reactants. They
170. 22:07 react to fear in ways which are not common among healthy normal people. So
171. 22:14 they deny the fear and then they convert the fear into something very exciting,
172. 22:20 very thrilling. That's why psychopaths are risk seekers. They seek risks all
173. 22:26 the time. They love to be in risky situations. They are reckless. They're defined. And the reason is that
174. 22:34 psychopaths and narcissists, they feel that they are invulnerable, untouchable. They they have impunity. They have immunity. They they they nothing can
175. 22:46 harm them, nothing can affect them. This is why when you arrest a narcissist and take him to court, he becomes very angry because this was not supposed to happen.
176. 22:57 Whatever he does, he should never ever be punished. Same with the psychopath because there is a sense of entitlement
177. 23:04 and superiority and so they believe that their their actions would never ever have
178. 23:10 consequences. That's what allows them to experience fear as an opportunity.
179. 23:17 But it also means that they can manage very stressful situations, situations of
180. 23:23 emergency and urgency much better than the normal average person, especially the psychopath. But also the narcissist
181. 23:30 to some extent they can please. No, no, no. Go ahead.
182. 23:36 No, no, continue. The narcissist's ability to to use
183. 23:42 fantasy to manipulate people is also very helpful because the narcissist can
184. 23:48 create a vision that motivates multiple people to work together for a goal.
185. 23:57 That's the narcissist. The psychopath on the other hand can use in a PR or communications also. Yeah.
186. 24:04 Well, possibly there are no possibly marketing too because they can uh sense
187. 24:10 what people want, what how people think, uh what do they like and everything
188. 24:16 else. And uh can we say then um uh there are some certain environments
189. 24:24 that are actually enabling or even rewarding narcissistic or psychopathic
190. 24:30 traits. Of course, there are certain cultures, societies, periods in history and civilizations
191. 24:37 where narcissism is, as I said, a positive adaptation. In other words, if you have narcissism, you're likely to
192. 24:43 end up with more more money, more power, more sex, more children, more everything. And if you're a psychopath,
193. 24:50 so in Nazi Germany, to be a psychopath was a good thing because if you were a
194. 24:56 psychopath in Nazi Germany, you rose to the top. You became a politician, you
195. 25:02 had money, you had power, you So, it depends on the environment. Of course, it's context dependent. Narcissism and
196. 25:09 psychopathy in themselves are not bad or good. Depends on the environment. And so
197. 25:15 today, for example, in western civilization, industrialized countries, mainly the United States, but not only.
198. 25:22 Mhm. And in places, for example, countries in transition from communism and socialism,
199. 25:28 some parts of the Middle East, China, in all these places, narcissism is
200. 25:34 definitely an advantage. And in July 2016, there was a cover
201. 25:40 story in the famous magazine New Scientist. And the cover story said,
202. 25:46 "Parents, teach your children to be narcissist." So if you're narcissist, you end up
203. 25:52 being president of the United States and with the most beautiful women and with a lot of money and very famous. So it
204. 26:00 seems that narcissism worked well for them. We I will say we also all live today in a narcissist society and we are
205. 26:09 all I mean we all have the narcissistic traits because I also think it's like u
206. 26:17 the survival instinct in ourselves because primarily we have to take care of ourselves and our needs and then there comes the rest and um I would also
207. 26:29 like to ask you since you um already um said about the countries and cultures
208. 26:35 that enable those traits. Uh when we have men and women in comparison like
209. 26:42 psychopaths and narcissists, we know that the most diagnosed narcissists are
210. 26:48 mainly men and border lines are mainly women. Uh but I would like to ask you um
211. 26:56 is there a difference in how male and female narcissists uh operate in um the
212. 27:03 careers we mentioned before? Yeah, I have to correct you. In the past
213. 27:09 10 years, the number of female narcissists is equal to the number of male narcissists.
214. 27:15 Half of all narcissists nowadays are women. And the reason is that women are becoming more and more and more like
215. 27:22 men. They become women are becoming more masculine. And it is true that
216. 27:28 narcissism is pathological. Narcissism is a masculine disorder. But as women become more and more menlike, then of course they become more narcissistic and increasingly more psychopathic as well.
217. 27:40 So um there is no psychological difference between a female narcissist and a male
218. 27:48 narcissist. None. Zero. Mhm. Identical psychology. However, the way they express their
219. 27:55 narcissism depends on the culture and society. In some cultures and societies, women
220. 28:02 should not do some things. They're not expected to do some things. They're forbidden to do some things. So they
221. 28:08 will find another way to express their narcissism. Whereas in other societies which are totally egalitarian, for example, Scandinavia, women and men would would manifest
222. 28:19 narcissism identically. But if you go to the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, of course, women would manifest narcissism
223. 28:25 differently to men. It's all cultural, societal. There's nothing to do with the psychology.
224. 28:31 Mhm. So, uh, another question I would like to, um, ask is, um, do you think that
225. 28:39 the political sphere tends to cultivate narcissist, uh, and psychopaths and
226. 28:45 their traits or does it just like simply attract uh, the people that already have such traits?
227. 28:56 Before we go there, I would like to make clear that societies, cultures, and civilizations that rely on narcissists
228. 29:02 and psychopaths cannot last long. They don't last long. They implode. They they
229. 29:08 are destroyed because narcissists especially narcissists and also
230. 29:14 psychopaths they have traits and they have behaviors which are very detrimental very problematic and very detrimental to the cohesion and the continuity of
231. 29:25 societies and cultures. So for example they lie.
232. 29:31 They never admit that they're ignorant. They never admit that they've made a mistake. Never. They know everything. They never make mistakes. And so they lie all the time. They confabulate.
233. 29:44 They traumatize people. They hurt people. They harm people. Both narcissists and psychopaths are antisocial. They're reckless in the sense that they don't think about the consequences of
234. 29:55 their actions. They are uh consumacious. They reject authority. They undermine
235. 30:01 authority. They don't like to work in a team. They like to be the boss. They like to establish immediately hierarchy.
236. 30:08 They're impulsive. They cannot control impulses. They're defiant. They sometimes do crazy self-destructive things just to harm another person
237. 30:19 or to oppose or to challenge institutions. You know, they they seek
238. 30:25 attention, but at the same time, they are immature. They're very childlike.
239. 30:31 They're infantile. They're paranoid. They are um obsessivecompulsive.
240. 30:38 We call it anastia. And so when you put all this package together, these are not people that can
241. 30:45 maintain anything in the long run. They can and what typically happens to the
242. 30:51 workplace culture over the time when it is led by someone with someone who is a narcissist or a psychopath. Destroyed. Destroyed. Every collective that is run
243. 31:03 by narcissists and psychopaths end up ends up being destroyed. It could be a country. It could be a club. It could be a church. It could be a workplace. It could be a family. There is no
244. 31:16 exception. There is no situation where a narcissist or a psychopath is in charge and the collective survives. No such thing. It could take decades. It could
245. 31:27 take years. It could take weeks. But ultimately everyone around the narcissist and the psychopath pay the
246. 31:34 price because narcissists and psychopaths are self-destructive and self-defeating.
247. 31:40 They're not healthy. Especially narcissists. This the narcissist is a very mentally
248. 31:46 ill person and they are divorced from reality and because they're divorced from reality because they live in fantasy they are ultimately yet we still have like a lot of
249. 31:57 politicians that and um maybe um corporate owners like billionaires
250. 32:04 millionaires that are thriving in life and it uh looks like um they will thrive
251. 32:11 and um you see on them like maybe even the the
252. 32:17 uh current American president even. So how is it possible for them to actually maintain a a good life because of them really do the current American president the
253. 32:28 current American president is destroying the United States? That's precisely what I'm saying. That is Yeah.
254. 32:34 And uh and Elon Musk will end up homeless. You will see.
255. 32:40 You're young. you're young. So in 10 years you will see that I'm right. He will end up homeless.
256. 32:46 But how did he um because he's old I mean the Trump. So how did he even get
257. 32:52 to where he is right now again in a in an civilization that is rewards
258. 32:59 narcissism and and psychopathy. These people rise to the top. Absolutely. Like Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany like Stalin
259. 33:05 in in Soviet Russia. They rise to the top. But it doesn't mean that they end well. They end badly and everyone
260. 33:12 arounds them ends badly. And if you look at the life of Donald Trump, I'm not so sure it was such a sweet life. He went bankrupt six times. He divorced twice. He had a difficult life. He was
261. 33:24 convicted in criminal court. It's not exactly a sweet life, you know. So these
262. 33:31 people are highly self-destructive and self-defeating. Remember these words. It
263. 33:37 never ever ends well. not for the psychopath and the narcissist and not for anyone around them. Mhm. So I think um I don't know actually
264. 33:48 how more minutes we have left. Uh I would uh it's been a pleasure really speaking with you and um
265. 33:57 it's it's it's easier prof just uh you're very good professional. Okay. So
266. 34:05 I hope okay my English is I haven't been using
267. 34:11 it like for months or years and it's not bad at all. Your English is great. No, thank you. Thank you. It was better
268. 34:17 before. Okay. I would also like to ask you like um
269. 34:24 uh for the we can say basic people. Okay. How can we uh recognize them? How
270. 34:31 can we and because they are very good and skilled in um uh mimicking like uh
271. 34:37 the emotional intelligence, empathy and everything else. So how can we recognize them? How can we say okay we have a
272. 34:46 we are here with a psychopath or a narcissist? You cannot recognize a psychopath
273. 34:52 because psychopaths as you said are superficially charming. They're glib and they know to manipulate people well. So, and when it comes to psychopath, it's a real danger. You cannot tell until it's
274. 35:02 too late. But when it comes to a narcissist, studies in Harvard and many other places showed that you recognize the narcissist
275. 35:09 within 30 seconds. Sometimes within 3 seconds,
276. 35:15 you deny it. You just deny it. All people recognize the narcissist immediately. It's intuition. You keep No. Yeah, it's intuition and so on. So even when you see a narcissist in
277. 35:27 a movie, in a video or 30 seconds, you recognize a narcissist. Even when you
278. 35:33 see an email from a narcissist, you recognize a narcissist. There are many many studies about this, but we denied.
279. 35:40 We say it cannot be. Something is wrong with me. I'm having a bad day. It's not okay not to give a second chance. I cannot judge someone in 30 seconds. That's not right. So society,
280. 35:54 so we're actually helping them. Yes. Society makes us doubt them to manipulate us. So
281. 36:00 exactly. Society makes you doubt yourself when actually you should not doubt yourself. The accuracy of your
282. 36:06 intuition when you identify a narcissist is between 85% and 90% right all the
283. 36:12 time. According there's like a survival instinct in us. We know we identify them. Again, it's through the evolution and everything. So yeah, we don't we don't know exactly why, but it's a fact. What I just told you is a
284. 36:23 fact. You identify them within 3 to 30 seconds.
285. 36:29 Mhm. Okay. Thank you. And I would also uh like to add I think we have two minutes. Oh, two minutes. Okay. So, um now I'm
286. 36:40 haven't If you if you have additional questions, we can click on the same link and then we come back to the same. I would want to ask you um what would be your advice
287. 36:52 uh for um or to the someone who is working under the um psychopath or
288. 36:58 narcissist and even if he recognize them he's u depend dependent on them. So uh
289. 37:06 what would be your advice what to do and specifically what not to do with this or
290. 37:12 those kind of um individuals? If you recognize them as narcissist and psychopaths, you should walk away. If
291. 37:18 you are incapable of walking away, you should not antagonize them. If you confront the psychopath or conflict with
292. 37:26 the nar psychopath, psychopath becomes violent, aggressive. If you con if you
293. 37:32 challenge the narcissist, criticize, disagree with the narcissist, he will make your life hell. Many narcissists are passive aggressive, they sabotage
294. 37:39 you. So if you recognize them as they are and you cannot walk away, collaborate, simply collaborate
295. 37:45 because many people uh um stay in the workplace for years which is uh slowly
296. 37:52 destroying them. They have the Now you now you now have to make a decision. Do you want to click on the same link again or do you want to say
297. 37:58 goodbye? Because we have Okay. Um yeah we can we can so um this is okay with your recording.
298. 38:05 Wait 5 minutes. Wait five minutes and then click on the same link. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
299. 38:12 Thank you. Right now so you can record. Okay. I think. Okay. So um I would like to ask um some
300. 38:20 additional questions. Uh so we mentioned the developing countries and um I want
301. 38:28 to know like developing countries they have high corruption they have nepotism
302. 38:34 uh they have weak um institutional uh oversight. So, uh I would like to know
303. 38:40 uh how dangerous it can be if we have individuals in um more uh careers and
304. 38:49 fields such as healthcare and uh politics that can um like align
305. 38:56 themselves like in equally um corrupt or
306. 39:02 um narcissistic political figures like um what kind of damage uh can this uh
307. 39:08 kind of alliance inflict. So if we have like a psychiatrist that
308. 39:14 is corrupted and works with politicians, he can basically diagnose the people uh
309. 39:21 that the politicians perceive as a threat. May be
310. 39:28 in uh developing countries for example the countries in transition from communism and socialism
311. 39:35 the role of fantasy is very pronounced because reality is intolerable
312. 39:41 unbearable very difficult because in reality people keep failing never mind how hard they try because they're not prospects for the future. In reality, people choose fantasy. And in these countries, fantasy is the
313. 39:58 dominant organizing principle of politics and of individual conduct, of individual behavior. As you recall, the narcissist is the
314. 40:09 world leading expert on fantasy. Pathological narcissism is a fantasy defense. Narcissist creates fantasies and then uses these fantasies to take
315. 40:22 away the identity of people to convert them into participants or actors in the fantasy and people feel that they come alive again because they have divorced
316. 40:33 reality. And so when you don't have institutions, when you don't have political culture,
317. 40:40 when you don't have a long history of teamwork and collective decision-
318. 40:46 making, when there is a myth or an ethos of a strong man or strong people,
319. 40:54 when there is a perception that hierarchy is better than network. When you have all these together, it's very easy for the narcissist to superimpose a fantasy because anyhow the
320. 41:06 population is craving a fantasy, is dying for a fantasy, couldn't can't wait
321. 41:12 to have a fantasy. And so in this but in these types of disruptive,
322. 41:19 disorganized, dysfunctional environments, the narcissist thrives. Mhm. Together with the narcissist, the psychopath thrives. What happens is the narcissist prepares the ground by
323. 41:31 creating a fantasy and and inculcating everyone including everyone in the fantasy and then once the fantasy is
324. 41:38 fully operational the psychopath comes to the picture and uses the fantasy for
325. 41:45 control for power for manipulation for profit for so we see in these
326. 41:52 environments diads diads couples not
327. 41:58 psychopath. Narcissist and psychopaths collaborate and the narcissist creates the dream and when you're dreaming,
328. 42:05 you're defenseless, you're vulnerable, the psychopath comes in and take everything you have.
329. 42:11 So we can say that um this alliance allows them to violate uh human rights.
330. 42:19 So if you have like um narcissist and psychopaths um as a politicians that uh can uh
331. 42:27 co-work or align with other psychopaths or narcissists that are working in a
332. 42:33 healthcare or as a social workers too. Um we can basically um have the
333. 42:41 individuals that can be perceived as a threat and then uh we use the system
334. 42:48 like to um deny them their rights like human rights
335. 42:56 to like minimize them, dehumanize them. Um, you seem to be traumatized by some
336. 43:03 medical, but I mean um I I have researched like
337. 43:09 some cases especially in Croatia with the journalists and um one journalist
338. 43:15 that was um we can say um he was investigating the child's prostitution
339. 43:22 that was happening in an um um institution that take cares of the
340. 43:29 orphans. And uh uh that particular journalist was put in
341. 43:37 a mental hospital, but he was perfectly fine and he was put there because and
342. 43:44 diagnosed by a psychiatrist um because uh the ones that were engaged
343. 43:50 in the child prostitution were the uh politicians. I don't I don't think it's unique to
344. 43:56 healthcare or to the medical professions. I think narcissists and psychopaths in all the professions are
345. 44:03 going to collaborate with the narcissists and psychopaths in charge with the narcissist and psychopath psychopathic politicians.
346. 44:10 So legal narcissist narcissists in the legal system and psychopaths in the
347. 44:16 legal system will collaborate with narcissistic and psychopathic politicians. narcissistic and psychopathic policemen, narcissistic and
348. 44:23 psychopathic judges, narcissist and psychopathic medical doctors, narcissistic and psychopathic psychiatrists.
349. 44:29 It's not about the profession, it's about the individuals who are narcissists and psychopaths. And they of
350. 44:36 course will collaborate with the narcissist in charge or with the psychopath in charge because there is a
351. 44:42 quid proquo. They by doing this they acquire money or power or access or so
352. 44:50 yes narcissists and psychopaths especially when they are politicians they creates networks of patronage networks of corruption and venality
353. 45:01 networks of immorality among other narcissists and psychopaths who are in other professions and in
354. 45:08 different positions. it that includes also television studios that includes the media that is not limited to medical doctors. You have narcissists and psychopaths everywhere. All all
355. 45:20 professions can be compromised and co-opted by a narcissistic or
356. 45:26 psychopathic politician. All professions, all technologies as well. And so if you have a psychiatrist, he would diag misdiagnose dissident and uh
357. 45:38 investigative journalists. If you have a medical doctor, he will poison someone. If you have someone in the media that
358. 45:44 will lie and falsify news stories if and so on and so forth. There's no limit, no
359. 45:50 limitation to this. We have seen in Nazi Germany film directors like Renestal
360. 45:57 collaborating with Adolf Hitler. We have seen legal minds like Carl Schmidt. We have seen scientists like Heisenberg and
361. 46:05 Heisenberg and and others collaborating with many physicists. We have seen all
362. 46:11 these people are essentially narcissists and psychopaths who are just looking for the opportunity to increase their own power, access, fame and to have opportunities. They're opportunistic.
363. 46:23 Narcissists and psychopaths are parasitic and opportunistic. Mhm. So it
364. 46:29 it becomes uh to look like kind of a cult or something like they all gather
365. 46:35 for their own purposes. Okay. So I would also like to ask you um if we could uh
366. 46:41 break it down to like subtypes of u narcissists and psychopaths.
367. 46:48 Um uh which ones will be more drawn to some specific professions? for example, which
368. 46:56 uh sometimes will be um drawn to or gravitate towards uh social work,
369. 47:03 towards politics, uh towards corporate leaderships or maybe even law or legal
370. 47:09 system. Yeah. Again, the information online is 10 15 years behind the real information
371. 47:17 behind the academically correct information. We used to think that there are two types of narcissists, covert and overt. We no longer think that way. What we
372. 47:28 believe today is that all narcissists are sometimes covert and sometimes
373. 47:34 overt. When they fail, when they experience failure and defeat, when they are ridiculed and mocked and exposed and humiliated and shamed, they turn cover.
374. 47:45 Covert narcissists become covert. When the covert narcissist finds an opportunity, he becomes overt. When he's
375. 47:52 given power, for example, if you give power to a covert narcissist, he immediately becomes overt. When you
376. 47:58 humiliate and shame an overt narcissist, he becomes covert. So, we no longer make this distinction. It is true, however, that in the overt phase, when the narcissist is in in an overt phase, he would tend to choose professions that emphasize control,
377. 48:16 power, machavelianism, the ability to manipulate people,
378. 48:22 uh ostentation, in other words, exposure to the public, uh fame, celebrity, and so on. And when the narcissist is in the covert phase, he would tend to choose
379. 48:33 professions that are perceived to be pro-social or communal professions that are perceived to be health helping
380. 48:40 professions as you mentioned. social worker, medical doctor perhaps volunteering lawyer,
381. 48:48 priest, priest in church, intellectual who is kind of uh activist,
382. 48:55 social uh social movement activists. There are studies since 2020 there are
383. 49:01 many studies that show that in social activism movements there are many
384. 49:07 narcissists and psychopaths. And uh you mentioned priests. So um why are there many uh um psychopaths amongst the priests and
385. 49:19 other uh religious like positions? We don't have studies that show this. We
386. 49:25 distinguish between two types of psychopath. We have a primary psychopath and a secondary psychopath. Factor one,
387. 49:31 factor two. The primary psychopath is the stereotype of the psychopath. It's a
388. 49:37 fearless, defiant, reckless, in-your-face, aggressive, violent, usually men. While the secondary type of psychopath is someone who has empathy
389. 49:49 and has emotions, but is very impulsive because this kind of person is impulsive. They make many mistakes. They
390. 49:56 harm people. They go crazy. They they do they commit crimes and so on. So, we have these two types of psych.
391. 50:03 So, we can have psychopaths that are emotional. Yes. And even empathetic. Yes. And is it like with um um sociopaths
392. 50:14 that like can there's no such thing as social? Yeah. Yeah. I know. But um it was said
393. 50:20 like that psychopaths do not have emotion and like the sociopaths can um
394. 50:27 feel empathy. I don't know. I cannot discuss the social because there's no such thing. Mhm. Okay. We can talk we can talk about unicorns but they don't exist. Yeah. Yeah. But my question was simply like um so it's a
395. 50:39 myth. It's a it's a false such thing as sociopath. There are many many words online that they don't exist
396. 50:45 like empath. No no no no no about a psychopath. So it's a false statement that they are emotionless. No. The primary the primary psychopath is usually emotionless. The secondary psychopath has access to emotions mainly negative emotions. He
397. 51:00 has negative affect. Okay. Anger. Okay. Same with same with narcissists. Narcissists have access to
398. 51:06 negative emotions but not to positive. A psychopath can experience envy, rage
399. 51:13 but not love can never experience love or joy cannot experience joy as well. So
400. 51:21 this is the situation regarding priests. We know that there is um an incidence a higher incidence of pedophilia and hepophilia.
401. 51:32 Yeah. among priests um especially the celibate ones and and what do you think is the main reason behind it they are not allowed to have sex
402. 51:44 it is a common it is a common myth a common misperception that we have a
403. 51:50 fixed sexual preference or fixed sexual orientation that's completely untrue
404. 51:56 if you deny someone sex they will have sex with anything and anyone if If you
405. 52:02 deny someone, if you deny sex to heterosexual men, he will become
406. 52:08 homosexual. If you but also in a traditional structures and societies, I think many of the men uh
407. 52:16 are forced to go in the religion like to become a priest um mainly by their
408. 52:22 families if they already turned out to be homosexual in order to escape the shame and everything. especially in small towns, small uh small societies and yeah and I would also like to ask you uh is
409. 52:40 the psychopath more little before they gain the power like when they are fighting for a position they want or when they get it.
410. 52:53 There's no distinction. Psychopaths are not in full control of their psychology. They are impulsive. They're reckless. They don't think to the end. They don't consider consequences and so on. And that is true before and after they obtain power. The
411. 53:09 damage after they obtain power is much bigger. Mhm. The aggression and the violence before
412. 53:15 they obtain power is bigger because they need to obtain power. Once they obtain power, it has anxolytic effect. In other
413. 53:22 words, when they obtain power, they calm down a little. the you know mission accomplished and the the more happy more
414. 53:31 egoonic. So but the for example if a psychopath has power and then he's
415. 53:38 challenged or frustrated or criticized or someone disagrees with him all the
416. 53:44 aggression and violent come violence come up. Yeah. Comes like they disappear. Yeah. Yeah. So uh also we have um narcissist rage too.
417. 53:55 Yeah. Um so I think I have asked you I think the main questions I truly wanted
418. 54:02 to ask and um you gave me the perfect answers. Thank you. And I would also
419. 54:09 like to ask if there is anything crucial that I haven't mentioned and I think
420. 54:15 there might be something um that you perceive as something very important for the people to to uh recognize or um to understand like about
421. 54:29 these personalities and as we speak as the these personalities as authorities.
422. 54:37 The more you deny reality, the more you escape from reality. For example, by using social media most of the time. This is an escape from reality. Or
423. 54:48 watching movies all the time, that's also an escape from reality. Or listening to music all the time, that's also an escape from reality. The more
424. 54:55 you allow technology to drive you away from reality and into a world of fantasy, the more likely you are to be victimized by a narcissist or a psychopath, mainly
425. 55:06 by a narcissist. The more grounded you are in reality, the more centered, the more you pay
426. 55:14 attention to reality, the the less you reject reality, the less you dream, the
427. 55:20 less you fantasize, the less likely you are to be the victim of a narcissist. The narcissist secret
428. 55:28 weapon is fantasy. But do we as a society have the capacity
429. 55:35 of uh not running into uh fantasy and illusions? We chose
430. 55:41 and we didn't hit the that stage yet. We chose fantasy over reality. Absolutely. All the modern all new
431. 55:48 technologies the metaverse is coming. The metaverse is 100% real uh fantasy. Social media is 70% fantasy. is the we have chosen as a collective as a species
432. 56:01 we have chosen to give up on reality. For example, 80% of us process symbols
433. 56:08 or provide services. We are no longer embedded in reality at all. We don't
434. 56:14 work the land. We don't build anything. We don't manufacture. We don't produce. We are just dealing with symbols. If
435. 56:20 you're Yeah. And we are served the fantasies even when we want to run away from it.
436. 56:26 So but you can you can establish very strict boundaries. You can minimize your exposure to fantasy. You can dedicate yourself to projects and and goals and commitments that are strongly embedded and grounded in reality especially in relation to other people. And if you do
437. 56:44 that you acquire immunity to narcissists and psychopaths. But very few people do that. And what do you think in 30 40 years uh
438. 56:56 will we still be um perceived and will actually be living in a narcissist
439. 57:04 or a narcissistic society and world or uh we will change for better?
440. 57:10 No social social trends don't take 30 40 years they take 300 400
441. 57:16 years. Oh, so absolutely we are entering a fantasybased
442. 57:23 uh civilization. Fantasy based civilization. In such a civilization, the narcissist has an
443. 57:29 advantage because he is a leading expert on fantasy. No one knows fantasy like the
444. 57:35 narcissist. No one. So in such an environment the narcissist thrives and
445. 57:41 succeeds because he can navigate this kind of environment much better than normal healthy people. It's his
446. 57:48 is the narcissist also vulnerable in a sense that he creates this love and this
447. 57:55 like lust for a fantasy because he also had to escape the reality and that's why
448. 58:02 he became the narcissist in the first place. Can we also say it? Yes. But if civilization itself is one
449. 58:08 mega fantasy that's the narcissist world, we are constructing the narcissist's ideal ecosystem and habitat
450. 58:17 ideal. And we are also ourselves turning into narcissist. Well, inevitably, if you want to survive
451. 58:23 in a fantasy, you have to become narcissistic. You have to deny reality. You have to not pay attention to other
452. 58:29 people. You have to become self-sufficient and self-contained. You have to deny many many things which
453. 58:38 is very hard to be alone. You have to be alone. Yeah. We are bombarded constantly with
454. 58:44 um all of um instructions. All of the instructions like what should we be? How
455. 58:51 should we look like? How should we act like? How should we behave like? This was always this was always the
456. 58:57 case. I mean people always society always dictated to people how should they look like who
457. 59:03 should they be with who should they they should love how they should have sex and so on that is nothing new today I think standards are like not realistic they are so high that
458. 59:14 that's also the case in previous civilizations no I don't think that's the I think the difference between this civilization and previous civilizations
459. 59:22 is that in this civilization we sacrificed intimacy we gave up on intimacy
460. 59:28 So in this civilization loneliness will be the organizing principle because we
461. 59:34 have given up on other people completely. There has never been a civilization in human history where
462. 59:42 people have given up on other people. Yeah. Yes. Never. We think we are self-sufficient and uh
463. 59:48 um in the same time we are longing for a connections. I think longing I think that is a
464. 59:54 fantasy component fantasy. Everyone is longing for a connection and year by year according to studies more and more people are avoiding connection how much they are longing. Yeah. But I think in the same time we are grieving the world like how was it
465. 60:10 before 20 30 40 years it's always like some nostalgia around us and at the same
466. 60:19 time we are acting narcissistic. I will say all of us we
467. 60:26 are we are um we are focused only on ourselves but yet we want the society to
468. 60:35 um how to say it to look uh uh we we want to live in a
469. 60:42 society that encourages um like social networking among people
470. 60:49 and uh yet we are not the ones who can uh be a part of it or who can contribute. I think I think uh the enlightenment in the last 300 years um convinced us there was a propaganda
471. 61:06 that we like other people that we like the company of other people starting with Jeanjaco and the social
472. 61:13 contract. Yeah. Mhm. But I think the truth is that we really do not like other people at all. That we
473. 61:20 much prefer to be alone because to be with other people is a lot of work. It's
474. 61:26 difficult. It's unrewarding. It's sometimes traumatizing. It's painful. It's it's a mess. It sucks to be with
475. 61:33 other people. Having been given finally the possibility to not be with other people,
476. 61:39 everyone is choosing to not be with other people because I think that is the natural condition. I think we have been
477. 61:46 deceived. We've been brainwashed to believe that we are what Aristotle called zonolitical social animal.
478. 61:54 I think we are asocial and very often antisocial animal and we have many many species including
479. 62:02 mammals where the which are highly individualistic
480. 62:08 species where individuals operate not groups not collectives and I think we're
481. 62:14 actually one of these like wolves we are more like wolves than for example elephants I think we are like that and
482. 62:20 but we've been denying this because we had no choice if you wanted to to make food. Yeah. You had to work together. You had to and you had to work together. They told you it's good to work together. It's a
483. 62:32 wonderful feeling. It's wonderful experience to work together because they wanted you to produce all kinds of
484. 62:38 things. But also it were darker times. It were the times where um we um today I can say we
485. 62:46 are more safe than ever before. So we have food, we have water, we have homes, we, as you said, we don't have to build
486. 62:53 anything. So yeah, definitely we we don't have uh wild animals chasing us
487. 62:59 anymore. So yeah, the escape the escape from reality started 10,000 years ago. Not now. When
488. 63:07 we created when we created the city, the city was a virtual reality
489. 63:14 because the city was not connected to the land, not to agriculture, not to work, not nothing. The city was total
490. 63:20 metaverse, total virtual reality. You lived in the city, food came to you,
491. 63:26 everything came to you, you didn't do anything. You were just trading, manipulating numbers. And this was make
492. 63:34 believe. It was totally hallucination, delusion. The city urbanization was the
493. 63:41 first virtual reality. The first and since then we never looked back. Since then 10,000 years all we are doing is escape reality. Religion is another example of escaping reality.
494. 63:53 Total fantasy. I understand everything. Okay. Um
495. 64:01 looking for I wish I had students like you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very
496. 64:08 much. Um I will ask you but it's it for me it's the language barrier. So uh in
497. 64:14 Croatian I have lots of things to ask and um since I haven't spoken to anyone
498. 64:20 in English in a long time uh I understand you perfectly but uh when it
499. 64:27 comes to me to form some uh sentences or something uh it become becomes harder.
500. 64:34 langu language barrier that's very good English it's very hard in English eyebrow English
501. 64:42 okay so I think I have asked everything I don't know two questions two questions would you
502. 64:48 like me to send you the recordings uh yeah of course you can but uh also I have recorded it um but um only the
503. 64:56 voice second thing um do you uh when could I upload it to
504. 65:03 YouTube would you like me to wave whenever you whenever you like whenever you like. So yeah, I uh I asked my
505. 65:11 colleagues and editors and they told me it's perfectly fine for you. So you can upload it whenever you I will give credit to you and to
506. 65:23 thank you very much. I I mean it this was enlightening very and uh
507. 65:29 I'm always enjoying when I'm watching your Tik Toks and everything specifically border lines um and um
508. 65:36 but there's there's a lot more on my YouTube there's a whole playlist dedicated to borderline on my channel
509. 65:43 and and all of this what I have seen it's um you have a very specific way of
510. 65:50 explaining things so Yeah. And I like it because it's um
511. 66:00 it's it brings new knowledge of course but uh in a way that is understandable
512. 66:07 for everyone. Thank you. If you continue if you continue I will blush. I will have to edit I'll have to edit this out. It was a pleasure.
513. 66:18 Very very polite and it's really been a pleasure talking to you. You are very how to say grounded. Are you grounded? Very very. Thank you. Thank you very much for
514. 66:29 having me. Thank you also. I know it's u it's not easy with me and my English. So stop it. Stop it. Your English is great. Really? Honestly, I never
515. 66:40 Yeah, for someone who didn't speak it for a long time, I'm okay with it. But uh most important is that um we have
516. 66:49 discussed and uh explained uh basically everything what I was interested in
517. 66:55 explaining. My questions are not so important as your answer. So it's okay for me.
518. 67:02 Okay. Uh so you can post it whenever you want it. Um it's not a problem. And also
519. 67:09 um I don't know if I will um have a time to do this today because I have a baby
520. 67:15 and I'm also on the university. So yeah uh but I think tomorrow uh I will be
521. 67:23 able to write this and uh send it to you so you can approve it. No, you don't need you don't need to send it to authorize it. No, don't don't send it to me. At least then I will send it to you when
522. 67:35 it's published. Yes, when it's published. I don't make I don't make sense, you know. You're right. Okay. Even better. Even better for me. Okay. So, let's work.
523. 67:46 But I I would love to see it when it's published. Yes. Then I send it to you. No worries. Okay. So, uh thank you for your time. Thank you for the opportunity and uh thank you for being so fearless
524. 67:58 and I'm here I'm here whenever you need. I will be visiting Croatia in November
525. 68:04 by the way on I made a I made two se I made a lecture and a seminar in Croatia.
526. 68:10 Mhm. And where? Ah Zag. Okay. Because I've been studying in Dub Bronik.
527. 68:16 Um yeah, journalism and PR. Yeah. But um I'm from Split.
528. 68:22 So I I know. But it's a beautiful country. And uh so your wife Macedonian I think. Yeah. Yes.
529. 68:30 So, you know the Balkans very well, I think. Yugoslavia.
530. 68:38 Yeah. So, um, thank you for your time once again and it's been a pleasure. It really was. Okay. YouTube.