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1. 00:00 No text um and it's way harder to get out of than it is to get into Yeah So and not picking picking your brain because you know um why isn't why do you think narcissistic abuse is a complex of behaviors which is but by today well defined and easily recognized and so why
2. 00:20 is it not criminalized in any jurisdiction there is coercive control in the United Kingdom and this kind of but there's no criminalization of narcissistic abuse as a complex set of behaviors Why do you think that is well I think because judges don't
3. 00:39 recognize it at this point yet I mean I think that um they look for evidence right and because they haven't seen okay what are the factors you know what they what they need to see is here are the set of factors that define narcissistic abuse And so what they need to see is uh
4. 01:04 somebody has to come forward and say here is what defines narcissistic abuse Somebody has to introduce that as a bill and bring it to the legislature and say this is a a defined set of factors that can be um over and over uh uh something that a court can go I
5. 01:29 can look at this and every single time uh know that I can um uh uh look at the
6. 01:39 elements and um every single court can [Music] um look at evidence for each set of elements Does that make sense yeah I I've I've spoken to many lawyers in the last 28 years and I know that many elements of narcissistic abuse are criminalized So for example coercive
7. 02:01 control in the United Kingdom I think also in Canada Yeah Yeah I have seen that they many courts are starting to do that But I know that that's what they're going to want They're going to want not the whole package What I'm trying to say is that elements are criminalized but
8. 02:15 not the cumulative package like Right So but they're going to want to see be able to see uniformity across the board so that um each element uh can be proven up Right I must say there is huge homogeneity Go to any forum of victims The experiences replicate their I agree
9. 02:36 with you I mean I think that that it should be but that's I know what um they're going to want to see So somebody's going to have to come forward and introduce it as a bill and say "Here's how it can be." Um uh why No text someone like you doesn't initiate a
10. 02:52 campaign i mean you're uniquely positioned to do this Oh well maybe I should I think you should I mean you're the most prominent uh legal voice in the sphere Yeah I am I can attest to this So you have kind of moral responsibility if you wish I mean why not why not I'm
11. 03:09 serious Why not start a campaign to criminalize narcissistic abuse i think you will have enormous amounts of support I mean from I mean in all all even in academ even in academia now we're beginning to have academic articles about narcissistic abuse with
12. 03:24 the word with a phrase narcissistic abuse I'm very gratified to see this But uh even in academia we we admit we we accept we acknowledge that narcissistic abuse is detrimental to the victim For example 10 years ago no 12 years ago there was a new discovery in
13. 03:39 neuroscience in neuroscience not related to and they discovered something called entrainment uh entrainment is when the wave the brain waves of two or more people are synchronized in a way that an EEG an electrophilograph cannot tell the difference So if you're connected to a
14. 04:00 machine and I'm connected to a machine and the machine registers our brain waves they will be indistinguishable from one another This is called entrainment Now how did they discover they measured they they registered the brain waves of participants in a rock
15. 04:15 band and they discovered that they will start when they start to play the music all their brain waves synchronize That was 12 years ago Now we know that all sounds do this Sounds do this They sing If you and I were to start to listen to a specific song right
16. 04:33 now within less than five minutes fewer than five minutes our brain waves would be largely synchronized and there would be no way to tell which is which Wow So sound has this impact and I suggested a few years ago seven years ago or something that verbal abuse is a sound system
17. 04:54 The narcissist tends to repeat the same slice It's like a mantra Like a mantra Yeah Yeah Yeah And I think the narcissist Oh for sure I mean there is entrainment here For sure This is this is an example of how academ is beginning to accept that in narcissistic abuse
18. 05:15 situations there are components which are objectively measurable For example brain waves No one has can you believe it no one has taken a a narcissist and his and his victim or spouse or whatever and measured their brain waves No one It No text
19. 05:30 would have to be on a statewide level So it would have to be per state I then I I'm not a lawyer I don't know Yeah Yeah It would have to be per state It wouldn't be federal No no no It would in in in the United States it's per state So we'd have to start in California I
20. 05:49 guess Yeah Yeah easiest easiest target For sure For sure For sure Yeah But I really the way the way the United States is going right now I mean um there there's already like rumblings of um of issues in divorce law because of the current uh I read I read about it Yeah
21. 06:15 Yeah Well you have to go blue But I I really encourage you to do this I think no one is more uniquely positioned than you to do this and leverage leverage Nobody's ever actually approached me about that before other than you know this is the first conversation I've ever
22. 06:32 had with somebody about that I think if you embark on a campaign and forget the visibility and all the attended benefits I mean that's besides the point But if you embark on a campaign I think you're uniquely positioned I mean there are many I like having conversations with
23. 06:45 people like you know get out of my little bubble over here Yeah Here's something you can do which would definitely make a difference I mean a big difference Victims are suffering and when they're trying to break down their abuse into components you know he
24. 07:00 coerced me he verbally abused me Yeah You know the you know in some countries I don't know United States but the conviction rate for rape is like zero 3% or I don't know what that's rape That's an ostensibly objective When victims of narcissistic abuse try to discuss
25. 07:17 narcissistic abuse with legal authorities the police law enforcement they are laughed out of the room because even rape is difficult to prosecute I mean let alone ethereal ephemeral notions of he verbally abused me you know but we're not talking about he
26. 07:35 verbally abused me We are talking about a campaign orchestrated campaign to use words in order to affect your mind alter it take over it It's it's very different qualitatively And this is only one component in dozens of components which comprise together the picture of
27. 07:57 narcissistic abuse Some of these components can be objectively proven some of them cannot Some of them is he he he he he he he he he he he he said she said But many of them can be objectively proven And someone has to put the package together and say if
28. 08:12 there's anyone who engages in this behavior in a systematic way uh then you know it should not be legal criminal No text Well my daughter interned for Governor Nuomo for two uh semesters last year So um you you interned for Governor Newsome my
29. 08:32 daughter my daughter your daughter yeah Yeah Yeah All right Yeah Um so that would be an interesting conversation Bear that in mind I think it's it's it's I think your whole career may be may have led exactly to this in my view I mean you combined law and and the topic
30. 08:52 So I think your whole career may may have led to this In my view someone has to do that Interesting Someone has to do that I was involved with the coercive control campaign in Scotland and and and England You were i I was involved Yes There's an interview online with the
31. 09:08 initiators of the campaign and so on I was involved with this I gave them the kind of academic background if you wish and so and they were far less qualified than you They were kids basically and and they they made it It's it's a an offense in in the United Kingdom Corive control
32. 09:26 is a serious offense I mean like 5 years 10 years in prison It's a good Sorry that is amazing That's fantastic I love that Not only there I think Canada adopted the same law I think if I'm not mistaken Australia I think So it's spreading Corive control
33. 09:44 is a bad thing Corive control is when you essentially kidnap someone You take away their identification uh cards and whatever passports or whatever You leave them without money no access to any communication means of communication and so so it's essentially kidnapping So
34. 10:01 it's more objective It's like easier to prove But narcissistic abuse is much wider So I don't know I know I'm not a lawyer but I think if you prove you don't have to prove like all the elements of narcissistic abuse It's enough if you prove a prepundonderance like a
35. 10:17 prepoundonderance of elements you know Okay And then it sticks I think something like that Maybe civil maybe not only criminal but something civil as well But it can't go It can't go unpunished It's It's a very common form of abuse nowadays And I go online I
36. 10:34 don't need to tell you Hundreds of thousands millions of people It's not a joke It's No I'm aware Yeah I know Huge Yeah Okay Well I It's interesting I'm I'm glad we had this conversation Um especially um knowing that they uh know
37. 10:54 what they're doing but and they can't change They cannot change It's not that they cannot change They don't have incentive to change They don't want to change Right I I told you that in prison they do change They have a great incentive A knife in the back Yeah But again
38. 11:13 it's they can change their behavior Yes But they cannot change internally Yes True Right Right It's not the same It's a compulsion You're right in this It's a compulsion in the sense that something happening inside that forces them to behave to misbehave It's not a
39. 11:29 it's not a clean clearcut case The men's rare if you wish is not a it's like a psychopath Psychopath premeditates plans has a goal It's not the same Here we have a delusion combined with a compulsion It's a sick person and there is a drive an urge from inside an
40. 11:48 impulse that pushes the narcissist to behave the way he does However given the right incentives like fear the narcissist can change Definitely Yeah It's not an internal change Not in but behaviorally the narcissist can change Yes Yeah Limited of course When the
41. 12:06 narcissist leaves prison he reverts He goes back to being a narcissist Yeah Right So this has been a fascinating conversation It always is Thank you for having me Um and you know and and I I I love that we went into sort of the political end of things too because I
42. 12:27 think that that's uh there's always so much more we always leave more that um I think that um you know we could get into um a whole other level of conversation uh at some point you know like uh the organizational uh end of things right um where where could we go next as far
43. 12:53 as uh is it is there an incentive to be a narcissist In current civilization of course they right huge incentives to be a narcissist and very few in incentives I would say disincentives to not be a narcissist If you're not pushy if you're not ambitious
44. 13:12 if you're not competitive if you're not disempathic lacking in empathy if you're not a brazing aggressive if you're not doomed in today's what's the impact what's the impact of that uh long term well you see what's happening around you that for another conversation Yeah it's
45. 13:28 a jungle law of the jungle It's a doggy dog It's might is right I mean you see it around you I don't need to tell you It's a Darwinism conversation I think in some ways And then you know and then uh how do we uh navigate that from a a negotiation communication point of view
46. 13:45 and that's what I you know what I'm training on right now I would I would generalize what you've just said How to not become prey as more and more people become predators right as being predator is the bon and everyone wants to be that's what I'm
47. 14:01 training on right become that that kind of leave that for part three Okay my pleasure Okay take care as always So fascinating Thank you It's been a great conversation I agree Thank you Thank you Thank you I appreciate you so much and I know all of
48. 14:23 you uh out there in our podcast land will absolutely love this and um we leave this for our our next conversation So thank you Sam Banos herist free weekend Yes All right Take care and uh thank you all All right Take care Bye bye