Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Use AI to Grey Rock the Narcissist (with Erica Hagen, Peacepost.io)

1. 00:00 there’s so many reasons to not stop the grieving process mhm and so few reasons to stop it so that’s where this kind of technology or coupled with professional help could be very useful and very helpful because this kind of Technology can can mirror you
2. 00:20 can provide you with you can you finally are able to face yourself I think you’re I think you’re hitting on exactly what I guess my goal in the long run is where this technology could potentially go to because if you are somebody that suffered through a narcissistic
3. 00:43 relationship and you went through the grief and you’re still going through the grief there are so many tens of thousands of people that that suffer every single year with this and you know if they are really dealing with decades long things you know burdens they’re
4. 00:59 carrying it’s a tremendous tremendous pain if you are in a situation where you’re forced to communicate with them because you share custody of child or children I think it becomes even more muddied because of course you know the best thing you should do no contact and
5. 01:19 then you basically start to purge every like little like weed that has ingrained into your head you don’t have that option so it’s how can we give tools or an umbrella to people that are stuck in a tsunami and or you know just give them the tools I used should
6. 01:41 say hurricane but give them the tools to survive what this this could be and um it’s it’s a step in the right direction or at least I hope it’s a step in the right direction so what you’re trying to do you’re trying to codify codify the healing process
7. 01:57 basically or you’re trying to make the victory aware of their own feelings and emotions and sentiments what exactly so with peace post it’s the ability to negate a lot of the emotional upheaval that’s going to happen so you have the option to input text so if you have a partner
8. 02:18 that you’re having to communicate with it does sentiment analysis you’re then able to get best practices to shut down further communication giving neutral responses that are only relevant so we’re basically shutting down the further communication then we have the
9. 02:35 second option of if you have to communicate something kind of challenging say you’re a co-parent you’re moving out of state you can have somebody that’s in a lot of upheaval because they have to craft something they can spend hours if not days Fring
10. 02:50 over it how can we start to train their mind to say we’re going to give you the simplest way to start to communicate things that are not going to create a giant thing because so many times you have victims that suffer and they want to send the giant paragraphs over and
11. 03:06 over and over thinking if I can just communicate if I can just tell them and get past them this one time how much this hurt me or how much I love them it’s going to matter it doesn’t and you know this it doesn’t matter because they’re an empty shell they have the cold empathy they
12. 03:24 understand what hurts but they only do what they can to get that further Supply so with peace post the goal is to become a tool people start to think in the gray rock method it educates and also gives them the opportunity to practice in a safe space they can then work with their
13. 03:45 therapists to then say okay they can start working on all the other underlying issues but if we’re looking at the Linguistics aspect of it if we’re looking at the sentiment analysis I’m hoping that this tool can Empower people to start to think differently and I
14. 04:02 think I’m hoping it accelerates people’s healing process NIS is uh psychopaths are less less influenced by but niss is are very responsive to language so if you provide people with a tool that allows them to craft Communications messages MH that
15. 04:24 are essentially emotionally neutral MH and would not trigger the narcissist is into any form of acting out or aggression or or attempt to prolong the communication would make the narcissist essentially lose interest precisely and that’s that’s of course very useful taking over the
16. 04:45 becoming a communication adviser to the victim is very useful because victims tend to verbalize their pain and their hurt and their rage their anger they tend to verbalize emotions m narcissists perceive these kind of communications emotional communication they perceive it
17. 05:05 as as uh added added ammunition they create databases of these emotions this um this something people it’s very difficult to kind of enter the mind of the narcissist but the issue of cold empathy is very crucial exactly the narcissist and the psychopath always ask themselves when
18. 05:31 they receive any form of communication they always ask themselves what’s in it for me how can I make best use of this people think that if they send the narcissist an angry message the narcissist is going to be hurt no they think the narcissist is going to be angry no actually the
19. 05:51 narcissist is going to say oh she’s angry great that means she’s vulnerable that means she’s stupid now I mean she’s you know thinking clearly that means I can leverage this anger to obtain some outcome psychopath definitely thinks this way so you are G when you convey or
20. 06:12 communicate your emotions you’re giving the narcissist weapons exactly and you are informing the narcissis it’s as if you are you are stripping naked in front of the narcissist exposing your vulnerabilities and telling the narcissist that’s the best way to get back at me
21. 06:32 that’s the best way to manipulate me that’s the best way to obtain the outcomes you were seeking narcissists want you to be angry they seek to trigger you narcissist do it unconsciously and automatically Psychopaths do it intentionally so a psychopath would
22. 06:51 craft a message would send you a message and the message contains multiple triggers specifically chosen Words which which hark back to memories and the message is supposed to to destroy your inner balance your equilibrium to to throw you out of
23. 07:11 balance and then then You’re vulnerable it’s all about balance of vulnerabilities the minute you communicate with the narcissist in a machine like way because what you’re saying is the messages should be gray rock gray rock means you become a machine it’s like a machine
24. 07:29 communicating it’s like AI communicating you know so the minute you communicate with n this way he loses interest and he may lose interest almost immediately because he realizes that nothing valuable or useful is coming through there’s nothing he can
25. 07:46 do with this yes and I I think that’s exactly it and I think when I interview I’ve interviewed so many people over the last year and a half and it’s really the people that are experienced people that have really gone through the trend is they utilize this they learned it the
26. 08:01 hard way and so it’s it’s not just I don’t want to say a chat bot because I think anyone can emulate a chatbot it really becomes the education aspect of it because so many times you’ve got people with core wounds that they’ll keep attracting the same type of
27. 08:17 personalities so it’s identifying and learning the tools along the way that helps them and supports them not just in that one Dynamic say you’ve got others and then it just becomes this way where you’re basically teaching interpersonal communication where you’ve got these
28. 08:34 people that are are are giving their whole hearts and it’s this the sacrificial lamb like you we’re trying to accelerate stop giving them ammunition we’re going to teach you the tools that you can start to heal yourself and this is a journey it’s like
29. 08:49 multi-tiered so I think it gives a lot of potential um for for people protective communication you exactly I mean kind of came up with the idea of protective communication communication which would not allow someone to breach your defenses your boundaries manipulate
30. 09:07 you leverage your emotions against you etc etc by not disclosing these vulnerabilities and these emotions simply exactly so this is yeah that’s a great idea in my view I think U communication skills are solely missing among victims because they they believe
31. 09:25 they’re communicating with a human being with an adult or the wrong assumptions It’s Not a Human Being it’s not an adult it’s exactly it’s an optimizing machine coupled with a child I know and if that interface could be empathetic towards so if we were to augment empathy towards
32. 09:41 the victim where they’re not getting it from the recipient I think it adds another layer where it’s like I don’t want to say it’s necessarily a therapist but potentially a coach where it’s giving people that additional level of okay I hear you this is really
33. 09:55 unfortunate it happened they’re getting the feedback without having to you know we’re not not to pay the price of communicating with exactly exactly so you’re firewalling you’re firewalling the victim basically yes that is that’s what firewalls do they reject certain
34. 10:11 Communications and they accept certain Communications they’re selective it’s a selective membrane exactly so you’re creating a selective membrane that does not allow certain Communications to go through because they would be manipulative or harmful or whatever and
35. 10:26 then you convert the the outgoing signals so so that they don’t disclose vulnerabilities and I think that it has the potential to do that right now people have to input their messages so you know there’s so many different levels if you’re going to have somebody
36. 10:39 that wants to get a hold of you how are they going to get a hold of you email text message WhatsApp all the different ways so as of right now it’s people copy and paste but then it’s also like removing the stress the the how do I how do I and and getting R of those
37. 10:54 paragraphs it’s not going to solve them it’s let’s give them the tools that they can now you know move forward and not stay in that stuck space and hopefully accelerate their healing this is very much a a malware model when we protect against malware in
38. 11:13 computers so we have an intrusion detection system MH intrusion intrusion you know alarm then the firewall takes over yeah as I said it’s it’s a selective membrane it allows in some messages and so on mhm and and then when we send messages out from the computer
39. 11:33 to the internet these messages are also filtered through the firewall and specific messages are not allowed out because they expose the vulnerabilities of the computer the the vectors of attack exactly and essentially what you’ve constructed what you’re talking about is a malware
40. 11:56 model protection against malware which involves intrusion detection and firewall this classic way to protect a computer computers are like victims if you think of malware and viruses computer viruses as narcissists and Psychopaths then the computer is the
41. 12:13 victim because the computer is open computer is open to the world exactly like the victim and the computer wishes to communicate what computers do they communicate exactly like the victim and when the computer communicate it exposes the computer exposes its vulnerabilities
42. 12:32 and its chinks in the armor exactly like victims do and then Mal the malware takes advantage of this penetrates the computer takes over the computer manipulates the computer changes the behavior of the computer and then it’s very hard to get rid of it sometimes you
43. 12:48 need to dump the computer all together so you’re constructing a defensive perimeter which which is essentially a kind of firewall an intrusion detection system exactly the same yeah so it’s it’s with written communication so looking to see where
44. 13:05 this can potentially go this technology I think there’s there’s tremendous opportunities but it’s you know first and foremost education and then giving people the tools to hopefully move forward in a positive way so yeah so yeah if you were to focus on language
45. 13:25 and communication only that would be great I think uh um because we all have the tendency to to add tasks and but I think I think a focus on communication and language would be would be a great contribution and I think that’s that’s definitely something that’s missing it’s a
46. 13:51 Luna thank you it’s it’s you know you know we started off this conversation talking about a lot of the negatives of AI and I’m not going to dis count there is a lot of potential downsides but you know I don’t feel like it’s going anywhere anytime soon so if we can
47. 14:06 leverage this for something good and potentially helping people I think that that’s going to be something that that’s yeah but but what you your product is not what I’ve been talking about your product you you serve as a as a gatekeeper Yeah Yeah by modifying AI
48. 14:26 to produce specific outcomes and fulfill specific it functions and roles you are the gatekeeper yeah AI in itself is not bad and not good precisely it’s the users of it that are bad and good and The Gatekeepers are supposed to make sure that only good users pass the gate
49. 14:45 exactly that’s what you’re doing so it’s what you even though you’re using AI That’s not AI when I talk about AI I talk about unmitigated access to the raw raw power of AI yeah without any Gatekeepers any any vetting process any nothing just take the the r power of AI
50. 15:06 take this weapon use it any way you wish you’re not doing this you’re not you’re you’re standing between the user and the AI application so this this is a gatekeeping function and so yeah I think it’s uh you have identified I think some a missing
51. 15:27 bit in The Jig so possible and that is communication skills of victims when they are forced to interact with narcissist and Psychopaths increasingly psychopaths are becoming more prevalent than narcissis the incidence of psychopathy is rising incidence of narcism is stabilized Mor
52. 15:45 or L the psychopaths are becoming more and more you know you are more likely to to come across a psychopath nowadays than let’s say 10 years ago 20 years ago psychopaths are not narcissist there are major differences between the two and Psychopaths but your application or your
53. 16:11 general direction of thinking could be applicable to Psychopaths as well however psychopaths are not going to react to Gray Rock they’re going to react to other things but not to Gray Rock So In Due Time next stage of evolution maybe orbe maybe have to have a follow-up call to
54. 16:30 understand what parameters so then when we train our model we’ll understand how it’ll start to look for that the problem is that many nisses are some narcissist are also Psychopaths they’re known as malignant narcissist these narcissist are less responsive to gray rock and and
55. 16:44 similar techniques so we need to I I think the next stage of evolution of your product You may wish to kind of incorporate techniques to cope with Psychopathic narcissist and Psychopaths yeah because they’re really they’re taking over Nar narcissist even
56. 17:03 narcissists are becoming submissive to psychopaths psychopaths are the next the next the next stage in evolution it seems so it’s a dangerous environment out there 40 years ago narcissists were much more prevalent than Psychopaths not today and what do you think accounts for
57. 17:23 that uh it’s a positive adaptation it enhances self-efficacy narcissism is a compromised version because narcissists are childlike narcissists are focused on their attention Seekers so they’re addicts narcissists are junkies psychopaths are the
58. 17:43 pushers so we’re transitioning from a junky environment to a pusher environment and psychopaths are far more in control of their of their reality testing so they’re far more attuned to reality they are goal oriented they are usually intelligent nais is are compromised by
59. 18:07 the fantasy they’re delusional they’re not grounded in reality they’re self-defeating many of them are self-destructive as well they are highly addicted to narcissistic Supply and the absence of Supply they fall apart and because they’re highly addicted to supply they’re actually
60. 18:24 highly dependent people they depend on other people that limit them that limits them and they are not very efficacious MH nists are not efficient Psychopathic narcissists are the most efficient and second place is Psychopaths because psychopaths are able to
61. 18:46 manipulate you and to redesign reality in ways which are essentially undefeatable way which are and that is the most extreme danger I am much more terrified of psychopaths and of narcissist narciss narcissists are delusional children simply delusional children psychopaths are
62. 19:11 maximizing machines animals they are predators apex predators they are and they have all the tools at their disposal they have reality testing they have intelligence they have lack of empathy they have and they’re not delusional they’re know exact exactly
63. 19:28 what they’re doing they they plan they execute they are so it’s you w come you wouldn’t want to confront a psychopath are they byproduct of nature or nurture of they are is the psychopath is it a byproduct of nature or nurture mostly nature U there is a very powerful
64. 19:52 hereditary component in in psychopathy and there are pronounced brain abnormalities in psychopathy we did not find this with narcissist it is not true that the brains of narcissists are different they’re not whatever differences they may be probably the outcome of narcissism not
65. 20:09 the cause of narcissism and they’re minimal they’re pretty minimal definitely we failed to find the hereditary component although I have no doubt that there is one but hither to we failed to find it with psychopathy the brain is almost unrecognizable the amount of white
66. 20:28 matter the size of the amydala the lyic system the dopaminergic pathway the dopamine processing pathway everything is dramatically different to a normal brain to a human human brain so to speak so psychopath definitely have a different brain not only do they have a
67. 20:47 different brain they have a different physiology for example Psychopaths even when they are scared they don’t sweat there’s not sweating the skin conductance of of psychopaths is so different to human skin conductance that sometimes on rare occasions it defeats
68. 21:08 polygraph so it’s not only the brain it’s the whole body that is completely different and uh the the terrifying thing about Psychopaths is that they are laser focused on the goal and anything standing between them and the goal is to be dispensed with in whatever way it
69. 21:30 takes and because they are grounded in reality it’s very difficult to catch them or to even to identify them because they are great at simulation mimickry and manipulating the environment and convincing people and they’re much more serious than narcissist narcissists are
70. 21:51 pathetic narcissist are clowns clownish because narcissist a narcist comes up with a narrative or a story and it’s a fantasy and he believes in this fantasy and in this fantasy is Godlike and you are goddess at the beginning to start with in the love
71. 22:09 bombing stage and it’s all very very childlike and narcis is shared fantasy is the way a child would imagine the world in many way it’s it’s it’s pitiful I find n is pitiful basically they harm people and so on but they harm people the way a child would harm people yeah
72. 22:28 if a child were given adult weapons and adult instruments and adult access it’s not the same with psychopaths psychopaths really mean business and they are really really what might be called evil in the Medieval ages we would have said that these are
73. 22:47 demons or evil people of course we don’t use this language anymore but there is this element of premeditation there is this element of harmful intent and there is Ely element of sadism that’s why malignant narcissist these are people who are diagnosed with narcissism psychopathy
74. 23:06 and sadism and that’s why we have dark tetrad dark tetr is subclinical psychopathy subclinical narcissism but also sadism sadism is a prominent feature of psychopathy which is absent in narcissism it’s not true that narcissist are sadist I mean there’s a
75. 23:23 tiny proportion of narcissist who are SES but not more than the general population naris not say this they’re simply deluded they’re nuts simply nuts psychopaths are say this they enjoy your pain they find it laughable very frequently the not the
76. 23:40 psychopath idea of a sense of humor is to torture you they find it hilarious you know and so there’s no common language and common ground with a psychopath you can’t negotiate with them compromise with them talk to them risen with them agree with them contract with
77. 23:56 them nothing psychopath is cut off from you because he doesn’t see you but it’s not that he doesn’t see you the way the narcissist narcissist doesn’t see you because the narcissist internalizes you you become an internal object the psychopath doesn’t see you because you
78. 24:11 don’t matter yeah you’re irrelevant on the way to the goal if you happen to be there he will trample over you or run you over with a car literally on the way to the goal you don’t exist when you’re useful you do exist for the duration of the usefulness expiry date you’re gun so
79. 24:32 Psychopaths regard other people um is useful objects or irrelevant objects but always objects narcissists regard other people as sources of supply and as potential Playmates in a childish fantasy it’s how they regard other people and of course they devalue and
80. 24:54 discard them and so on because that’s what children do children you know transition from one friend to another friend So-Cal friend it’s childlike it’s all childlike narcism is childlike psychopathy is terrifying it is and I can I can understand what you’re saying
81. 25:09 where you can do the identification via AI but then potentially communication becomes a problem because it’s you know if they do have the reality testing if they do have that it’s going to be a very different algorithm so to speak to be able to
82. 25:24 communicate but at the end of the day it’s trying to remove unnecessary feedback trying to get unnecessary dialogue out and sometimes it’s just having to say hey we have to do X that’s that as opposed to the B probably the bartering is the best way
83. 25:42 it’s like you you think you can have somebody that can communicate and if I just say it just right it doesn’t work with these personality types there has to be a commonality of wanting to reach the same goal and the goal being a solution that’s not their goal and and
84. 25:58 getting victims to that point faster is going to I think solve a lot of issues yes the realization that there’s nobody there narc narcissism is an absence masquerading is a presence there’s nobody there there’s an empty empty emptiness black
85. 26:16 hole and or the realization that you are prey to the psychopath who is a predator and you have no other utility except as prey so if you refuse to be pray the the psychopath is faced with two options he can coer you into becoming pre n Psychopaths often become violent and and
86. 26:37 aggressive or he can give up on you if the cost of converting you into prey is too high psychopath will give up you like that narcissist are much more insistent narcissist are likely to become stalkers narcist are much more insistent because it is the very interaction with you the
87. 26:56 very communication with you that fuels The Narcissist grandiosity sense of omnipotence and preserves the fantasy somehow as long as you’re communicating with naris in a meaningful emotionally meaningful way you are still trapped in the narcissist shared
88. 27:16 fantasy and you right the minute you go Gray Rock You de emotionalize the interaction you minimize it so that no unnecessary irrelevant things are discussed you render it actually goal oriented and so on narcissist would lose interest because the fantasy cannot be
89. 27:36 maintained The Narcissist was never in love with you the narcissist never misses you the narcissist misses the fantasy The Narcissist was in love with the fantasy if you take away the fantasy nothing is left it’s not that if you take away the fantasy you are left
90. 27:55 no if you take away the fantasy nothing is left if you refuse to participate in the game in the sandbox of the narcissist then you don’t exist anymore because you’re an internal object he disables you essentially in his mind in your gun it’s a great way to get rid of
91. 28:12 narsis absolutely it is definitely the goal and then people can work on their internal healing they can work with therapists or if they need to work with legal professionals it gives them the space and the clarity to not just be sucked into that you know Hall of
92. 28:29 Mirrors and and not have to look to somebody else for their own validation they have to give it to themselves they’ll work with other people to do that but just give them the space give them that firewall um to protect them and hopefully get to a better spot one
93. 28:44 last comment Before We Say Goodbye yeah victims communicate with narcissist this way emotionally mhm share with them actually vulnerabilities and needs expose themselves discuss irrelevant issues not only because they don’t know how to communicate but because it satisfies
94. 29:08 deep psychological needs in the victim the imposition of a neutral objective interface is a form of self-discipline the victim is motivated to continue the shared fantasy never mind if the shared fantasy became a shared nightmare it still shared and it still gives life some kind
95. 29:31 of structure and Order and meaning and Direction and purpose you know it’s still a narrative we are we are creatures made of stories if we don’t have a narrative if we don’t have a story if we don’t have meaning in life we don’t have a life so
96. 29:48 the fight with the narcissist is a kind of narrative it’s horrible narrative and pleas but it’s still a narrative it still keeps you somehow together but but if you impose this uh objective neutral interface uh then there’s discipline you become
97. 30:06 disciplined and uh that’s where you need the therapist intervention to provide you with alternatives to the narrative because if you come to the victim and take away the shed fantasy or take the victim out of the shed fantasy what is left the shed fantasy is
98. 30:25 immersive immersive it it infil atates every nuke and cran of human life so take away the fantasy what’s left when you take the victim out of fantasy many victims become depressed some of them develop suicidal ideation and so on because there’s
99. 30:42 nothing left so the Fant fantasy became everything you need to provide with an the victims with an alternative so the first step is your your program that kind of imposes discipline on the victim you will communicate in a way that is not self Haring and not perpetuating the abuse
100. 31:04 and not perpetuating even the shed fantasy yeah okay but then immediately someone must provide the victim with an alternative life with an alternative narrative Al with some meaning with some because this [Music] vacuum is is intolerable The Narcissist was everything
101. 31:28 narcistic n religious narcissist are all pervasive they’re ubiquitous is you can’t you know just detach the victim and hope for the best victim needs help yeah precisely precisely well I cannot thank you enough your insights have been absolutely
102. 31:47 marvelous as always and um again so much of your knowledge base has gone into you know helping craft what this product could peace. it’s it’s live now and it’s definitely here for people that hopefully can utilize it get to a better space and then also work with train
103. 32:08 professionals to fill that void and get to a better spot thank you it’s a great idea thank you very much you thank you have a nice day you too bye bye