Yeah, I do agree, and also when I’m working with my clients, I can see this pattern, this scheme.

Like, if you don’t want me, you will need me.

So this is, I think, also what you are talking about, like, needs to be needy, to be needy, right?

And yeah, it’s also important.

But also, one of the ingredients in this group is also to be worthy.

Not only say, but like to be worthy, finally, for codependent and for BPD.

Yes, the sense of self-worth in a codependent, exactly like in a narcissist.

The sense of self-worth is regulated from the outside, is externally regulated.

When she is needed, she feels worthy because typical codependent was brought up to feel that she is a good object, that she is worthwhile, that she can be loved, that she is lovable only if she provides services, only if she is needed, only if she helps, only if she supports, only if she performs.

So it’s performance-based.

Both the narcissist and the codependent as children, they were loved conditionally. They received love only if they performed.

The narcissist had to perform, you know, like in a circus, like in a theater. The narcissist had to show as a child that he is intelligent, unusually intelligent. He had to get good marks at school. He had to collaborate with one of the parents in a parentifying role. He had to fulfill the dreams and the wishes of the parent, dreams and wishes which were not realized and frustrated the parent, etc., etc.

So the narcissist got the message, you are not lovable unless you perform.

Same with the codependent, exactly the same with the codependent. She received the message, you are not lovable unless you help me, unless you support me, unless you provide me with services.

So she learned that to obtain love, she must find someone who needs her. She must be needed.

And then she feels that she’s a good object, a worthy object, you know, and so on.

So this is the dynamic between these two.

And the dynamic is extremely powerful.

Again, I repeat, because it’s largely positive, actually.

The codependent can experience for the first time in her life a stable need, a need that doesn’t diminish or doesn’t fluctuate.

The narcissist needs supply all the time, so there’s a sense of stability.

She also experiences self-love. She’s idealized exactly as a good enough mother should have done.

If a good mother idealizes her baby, because babies are a pain in the ass, excuse me for the expression, you know, they do all kinds of crazy things.

Mother needs to idealize the baby in order to be able to love the baby. So there’s a lot of idealization in the beginning.

The codependent, when she meets the narcissist, the codependent regresses completely into her childhood.

The narcissist with all his partners, even with partners who are not codependent, he pushes them back to childhood.

He acts as the mother. The narcissist acts in a maternal role.

And so the minute the narcissist acts as the good enough mother and tells you, you’re perfect, you’re brilliant, you’re amazing, you’re super intelligent, you’re drop dead gorgeous.

The minute he does this to you, the minute he idealizes you, he becomes your mother.

But to receive this from him, you must become a child, because if he’s your mother, you must be a child. Otherwise, the interaction is not possible.

So when you meet the narcissist, he idealizes you, he becomes your mother, and you become a child.

In order to receive this from him, this self-love of your idealized image, you need to become a child, you regress.

The codependent regresses, the borderline regresses when they meet the narcissist.

And then they have a second chance to be a child. They have a second childhood.

And it is like, maybe this childhood will be different. Maybe this time, maybe this time I will be loved, maybe this time I will be accepted, maybe this time.

So it’s a unique experience that only the narcissist can give them, this second childhood.

Yes, and this is also important, what you said, because sometimes many people are convinced that they have been chosen by NPD because of the empathy or because of the compassion or, you know, another characteristic.

And it’s not at all about that. This is a serious, a grave mistake.

The narcissist regards, as I said yesterday, the narcissist regards empathy as a threat.

So he would regard an empathic person as a threatening person. The narcissist doesn’t select for empathy.

The narcissist selects an intimate partner who is vulnerable in the sense that the intimate partner wants to be idealized.

Now, this could be a co-dependent, a borderline or normal person. She wants to be idealized because she had never experienced unconditional love and therefore never developed self-love.

It wasn’t that, I think, calls it self-love deficit. And I like that phrase. So she didn’t experience self-love. She has a deficit.

The narcissist comes in and says, listen, let’s try again. Let’s start from the beginning. I will make you a baby. I will make you a baby. I will be your mother. And I will allow you to experience unconditional love as an idealized figure. And then you can begin to love yourself.

So the narcissist is perceived as a second chance at fixing everything that had gone wrong in childhood. That is enormous binding power, enormous bonding power. That’s why it’s extremely difficult to break.

And the narcissist doesn’t want his partner to empathize with him because how can anyone empathize with the narcissist?

To empathize means that you are like me. We have something in common. But you’re not like me. And we have nothing in common. I’m God. You’re human. We cannot have anything in common. If you tell me that you’re empathizing with me, you’re insulting me. So he doesn’t look for empathy. He looks for vulnerability. He looks for neediness. He looks for self-love deficit.

And in this sense, the narcissist is really a predator. That part is true. He’s predatory.

But he doesn’t do it with bad intention. It’s just the way he is. He finds such women who are vulnerable, then he bonds with them.

So the borderline and the narcissist plug into the shared fantasy of the borderline and the codependent. They plug into the shared fantasy of the narcissist because it is within this shared fantastic space that they feel safe.

The narcissist needs them. He is all-powerful and all-knowing. So he’s a parental figure. So he can be mother. So they can be children. So they can love themselves. And it’s a perfect charmed circle, which, by the way, can go on for decades. The shared fantasy can last for decades. It just depends.

If the two partners never grow up or never evolve or never develop, the shared fantasy could last decades. If one of the partners, the borderline, for example, or the codependent, develops their own autonomous life, independent life, that would threaten the narcissist and everything will fall apart.

Yeah, I do agree. And yeah, and still many people are convinced that they are like a magnet for narcissists or, you know, like, yeah, but the magnet cannot do anything about that, right?

They think that if something inside them is, yeah, make it that this kind of match is happening, like, let’s say, perfect match. So yeah, they truly believe that still about that.

Well, the narcissist does scan for vulnerabilities, lack of self-love, neediness. So yes, there is a particular profile, but this profile is so widespread. So a huge part of the population has this profile.

So I would say that narcissists are indiscriminate. They’re promiscuous. If you can give supply, if you agree to be dependent on the narcissist for your needs, if you agree for him to be needy and to consume supply, if you agree to play each other’s mothers, the dual mothership role model, then he doesn’t care anything else about you. He doesn’t care about your empathy, your compassion, your affection, your emotionality, or these are alien to him. He is not interested in them.

And many of these things threaten his uniqueness, threaten his sense that he’s sui generis, that he is one of a kind, you know, as if one of a kind. He doesn’t need help. He doesn’t need advice. He doesn’t need support. And he doesn’t need your empathy. It’s an insult.

Because he’s superior. So yeah, it’s obvious. Exactly. Why would you need your help or support?

Yeah, I do agree. So yeah, but how people are affected, especially codependent PPD by this relationship with NPT because they are affected.

Before we go into this, you asked two questions, I answered only one. So I should be sorry, because I answered only one and forgot about the other one. But now I remember the other one.

You asked why NPDs find it difficult to break up with BPD. Yes. When narcissists find difficult.

And here the answer is, is a bit interesting.

We said that, I said earlier that codependence and borderline, they kind of adopt the false self of the narcissist, they internalize it.

Because the narcissist is needy, because the narcissist needs the codependent, the codependent feels that she is in control of the narcissist. He needs her, so she controls him. So if she controls him, and he is the false self, she controls an object that is godlike.

The codependent needs to feel safe. She needs to feel needed, and she needs to feel safe. These are the two driving forces in codependency.

So when she internalizes the narcissist, when she makes the narcissist an internal object, when she takes over the narcissist, controls the narcissist by giving him supply, like a pusher of a drug, she gives him the drug, so he’s a drug addict, he’s addicted to her.

When she makes him addicted to her, at that time, she internalizes him, she internalizes his false self, and she becomes godlike. She subsumes, she digests the false self, and all the properties of the false self of the narcissist become her properties.

So there is a phase in the codependent narcissist dance, borderline narcissist dance. There is a phase where the narcissist becomes very, very, very needy.

The borderline, and to some extent the codependent, feel omnipotent. They feel all powerful. They feel that they own the narcissist, they control the narcissist.

At that moment, all the properties of the narcissist, all the properties of the false self become the properties of the borderline and the codependent because she owns the narcissist.

It’s like, if you own a very fast car, the properties of the car become your properties because you can be fast. If your car is very fast, then you are very fast, of course, because you’re using the car.

So it’s the same with the borderline and the codependent. If they own the narcissist, it’s like owning a car. All the properties of the narcissist become their properties.

At that moment, the codependent and the borderline feel totally safe. They feel safety that they had never felt before. Never.

Because they had subsumed, they had internalized and introjected an object, the false self, which is God-like. They became, in other words, gods.

And I call this process apotheosis. They became gods.

This is the process of co-idealization.

The narcissist idealizes the codependent and the borderline, gives her access to this idealized image, acts as the mother, gives her unconditional love, but he needs her.

He needs her because she is also his mother. She also becomes his mother. So he needs her for supply, for other psychodynamic issues.

He needs her. The minute he needs her, she accepts his idealization of her. She accepts it. It becomes a part of her. Technically, both of them become narcissists.

So when the narcissist teams up with the borderline and codependent, he converts them into narcissists. That’s why I keep saying that narcissism is contagious.

When you have a relationship with the narcissist, before you know it, you become a narcissist, clinically, definitely clinically.

For example, your grandiosity goes up enormously. There’s a huge jump in grandiosity. Some behaviors become narcissistic, some traits become narcissistic.

So you are infected with your partner’s narcissism, if you are codependent and borderline, by digesting, adopting, assimilating his false self, by controlling him.

He becomes an extension of you. He becomes a part of you, like a car, like you own a car.

Okay. The narcissist, I would say that the narcissist is much more dependent on the borderline than the borderline on the narcissist.

I would say that the axis of dependency is from the narcissist to the borderline.

The borderline is less dependent on the narcissist because the borderline is capable of acting out.

Acting out in the borderline pathology, acting out is to break the continuity. After the borderline acts out, for example, she finds it much easier to get rid of her intimate partner.

So she has these exit ramps. It’s like she’s on a highway and there is an exit, exit ramp.

So borderlines go on a highway and they have exit ramps. They can be with another man, a stranger. They can run away for months and years.

So borderlines have these exits.

Narcissist is on the same highway, but he doesn’t have the exits. He cannot exit. It’s a one-way highway.

There’s no exit for him. He doesn’t act out. He’s totally dependent on narcissistic supply. He’s a junkie. He’s a junkie. So he has no way out.

And he is much more dependent on the borderline than the codependent.

Then the borderline is on him. So there are five reasons for this, unfortunately.

Never one. There are five reasons for this. I will mention them briefly.

And then if you want, we can go each and every one of them.

The first one is external locus of control.

The narcissist develops an external locus of control. His supply is coming from outside. So he depends on his supply.

So he feels that he’s controlled from the outside. But strangely, with the narcissist, when he develops the belief that he is controlled from the outside, his anxiety goes down, not up, for reasons which we can discuss later.

So with the borderline and the codependent, the narcissist feels that she controls him. He feels the borderline is in control. The codependent is in control. And he loves it. It reduces his anxiety.

The second reason is the narcissist regards the borderline or the codependent as an enigma, a puzzle.

And he challenges his omniscience. He challenges his grandiosity.

So he tries to decode the borderline, to decode the codependent, to understand them, to decipher them, to make sense of them. And there is no sense.

Borderline and codependency are nonsensical disorders. There’s no sense there. It’s total chaos.

So he doesn’t succeed to make sense. And this challenges his grandiosity. He feels he feels narcissistic injury.

And so he becomes hooked. He becomes addicted to making sense of his borderline or codependent partner in order to restore his grandiosity.