Collective Narcissism and Its Leaders: Case of Macedonia (with Nikola Ristevski)

Summary

This illuminating conversation blends science, psychology, culture, and politics to offer a comprehensive outlook on Macedonia’s challenges and opportunities. It stresses the power of language, time, and collective consciousness in shaping reality and identity. Macedonia stands at a crossroads: the path toward economic diversification, intellectual leadership, national cohesion, and creative expression offers hope for transformation. However, this requires courage to confront harsh realities, the creation of new parallel structures, and the rekindling of dreams and poetry in public life. With its rich cultural heritage, resilient people, and strategic geographic position, Macedonia holds the promise of becoming a vibrant, innovative nation. The future depends on nurturing leadership that balances vision with emotional maturity and cultivating a society united by shared goals and inspired by creativity. Collective Narcissism and Its Leaders: Case of Macedonia (with Nikola Ristevski)

Abuse, Meaning, narcissism, People, Personality, Psychology, Reality, Sam Vaknin, Trauma, Vaknin Summaries

May 11, 2021

Tip: click a paragraph to jump to the exact moment in the video. Collective Narcissism and Its Leaders: Case of Macedonia (with Nikola Ristevski)

00:02 here we go we are being recorded big brother is watching us yes well hello mr reckman just a split second i will make a backup audio recording for you yes hello good to be with you thank you for having me thank you for this opportunity to be one of the first guests on my new show i’m doing a podcast the name of the podcast is kanda podcast congratulations and success thank you i hope that first of all we are both color coordinated we are both wearing black which is i hope doesn’t say anything here we go we are being recorded big brother is watching us yes well hello mr reckman just a split second i will make a backup audio recording for you yes hello good to be with you thank you for having me thank you for this opportunity to be one of the first guests on my new show i’m doing a podcast the name of the podcast is kanda podcast congratulations and success thank you i hope that first of all we are both color coordinated we are both wearing black which is i hope doesn’t say anything
00:38 about the future i hope that with with our conversation that we will raise the consciences about the important things we will provide some meaningful information to the audience and we will promote your work and my work also so um researching your work i haven’t read your your best-selling book still haven’t read it but i have read plenty of articles from your website watch the movies which i really liked and since my childhood i remember those writings with you with one of our politicians about the future i hope that with with our conversation that we will raise the consciences about the important things we will provide some meaningful information to the audience and we will promote your work and my work also so um researching your work i haven’t read your your best-selling book still haven’t read it but i have read plenty of articles from your website watch the movies which i really liked and since my childhood i remember those writings with you with one of our politicians
01:16 from the past so if you don’t mind i would like to start with your doctoral thesis because time is something that interests me a lot and i’m researching our cultural heritage and gained an understanding that the time is actually not a linear thing it’s more like cycle or spiral things so what can you tell us about your doctoral thesis and how do you understand the time how you comprehend it well we are forced we are forced to use language because we have no other tool to to communicate but language from the past so if you don’t mind i would like to start with your doctoral thesis because time is something that interests me a lot and i’m researching our cultural heritage and gained an understanding that the time is actually not a linear thing it’s more like cycle or spiral things so what can you tell us about your doctoral thesis and how do you understand the time how you comprehend it well we are forced we are forced to use language because we have no other tool to to communicate but language
01:56 often falls short language is often problematic as any zen buddhist would tell you and i came across the same problem when i in the early 80s in 1982 1984 was writing my doctoral thesis um i have at that time i obtained a dual double doctorate in philosophy and in physics so i came across a similar problem you see all the previous physicists we are talking einstein others they were great innovators but they were did not change the language the language of einstein is exactly the language of newton often falls short language is often problematic as any zen buddhist would tell you and i came across the same problem when i in the early 80s in 1982 1984 was writing my doctoral thesis um i have at that time i obtained a dual double doctorate in philosophy and in physics so i came across a similar problem you see all the previous physicists we are talking einstein others they were great innovators but they were did not change the language the language of einstein is exactly the language of newton
02:38 exactly the language of leibniz exactly the language of qualcomm eisen was not a revolutionary he was an innovator there is a major distinction between these two things to be a revolutionary you need to change language and marx was among the first to observe that language changes consciousness and consciousness changes language they are intricately connected if you don’t change the language you can say many new things but you’re not going to affect consciousness you need to change the language in 1982 exactly the language of leibniz exactly the language of qualcomm eisen was not a revolutionary he was an innovator there is a major distinction between these two things to be a revolutionary you need to change language and marx was among the first to observe that language changes consciousness and consciousness changes language they are intricately connected if you don’t change the language you can say many new things but you’re not going to affect consciousness you need to change the language in 1982
03:17 when i started writing my thesis my first question was can we rewrite physics from the ground floor using a minimal language because you see the problem in in physics for the last 400 years since newton is that physics uses too many entities it has too many entities it has too many forces it has too many it’s a multiplication of assumptions it’s too complicated to be true it’s probably not true because reality is simplicity simplicity is beauty reality is beauty it cannot be that reality relies on when i started writing my thesis my first question was can we rewrite physics from the ground floor using a minimal language because you see the problem in in physics for the last 400 years since newton is that physics uses too many entities it has too many entities it has too many forces it has too many it’s a multiplication of assumptions it’s too complicated to be true it’s probably not true because reality is simplicity simplicity is beauty reality is beauty it cannot be that reality relies on
04:03 hundreds of elementary particles hundreds of assumptions or thousands of assumptions uh half a dozen forces cannot be it’s wrong something’s wrong so i said let me rewrite physics and through physics of course our interface with reality let me rewrite it using a minimal language now i’m not the first to think about it there is a principle called parsimony parsimony in science means you should write theories that contain minimal assumptions and minimal entities it’s also known as occam’s razor hundreds of elementary particles hundreds of assumptions or thousands of assumptions uh half a dozen forces cannot be it’s wrong something’s wrong so i said let me rewrite physics and through physics of course our interface with reality let me rewrite it using a minimal language now i’m not the first to think about it there is a principle called parsimony parsimony in science means you should write theories that contain minimal assumptions and minimal entities it’s also known as occam’s razor
04:39 so i started to eliminate started to eliminate first i eliminated mass then i eliminated motion then i eliminated space i eliminated every time i eliminated i rewrote all of physics without the word that i had eliminated so i rewrote all of physics without muscles then i rewrote all of physics without masses in space then i rewrote all of physics without masses in space and motion etc etc etc momentum etc finally i was left with one word one single word without which it would it was impossible to describe so i started to eliminate started to eliminate first i eliminated mass then i eliminated motion then i eliminated space i eliminated every time i eliminated i rewrote all of physics without the word that i had eliminated so i rewrote all of physics without muscles then i rewrote all of physics without masses in space then i rewrote all of physics without masses in space and motion etc etc etc momentum etc finally i was left with one word one single word without which it would it was impossible to describe
05:23 the world in other words without which it was impossible to do physics and that word was time i was left only with time i constructed the theory of physics which describes the universe as a field of potentialities time is the ultimate realization of all these potentialities once all these potentialities are realized we will have ended time that would be the end time but until such time there is time and because the number of potentialities is essentially infinite they’re not likely to run out of time the world in other words without which it was impossible to do physics and that word was time i was left only with time i constructed the theory of physics which describes the universe as a field of potentialities time is the ultimate realization of all these potentialities once all these potentialities are realized we will have ended time that would be the end time but until such time there is time and because the number of potentialities is essentially infinite they’re not likely to run out of time
06:09 anytime soon i use in my theory of physics a single word time when i look at time from the left it becomes mass when i look at it from the right it becomes motion when i look at it from under it becomes space if you take time and you look at it at different ways mathematically you derive you get the old concepts of space of motion of momentum of masses all of them are manifestations of time because all of them are potentialities of the field they are potentials of the field because we are very limited creatures anytime soon i use in my theory of physics a single word time when i look at time from the left it becomes mass when i look at it from the right it becomes motion when i look at it from under it becomes space if you take time and you look at it at different ways mathematically you derive you get the old concepts of space of motion of momentum of masses all of them are manifestations of time because all of them are potentialities of the field they are potentials of the field because we are very limited creatures
06:55 even you and me are limited creatures believe it or not because we are very limited creatures we tend to see multiplicity where there is actually uniformity and we tend to give names to different manifestations of the same thing now he took the physics community well over 30 years to understand what i was saying but fortunately in the last six or seven years there is a group of several dozen scientists from all over the world some of them very prominent in gravitation and relativity theory and so on particle even you and me are limited creatures believe it or not because we are very limited creatures we tend to see multiplicity where there is actually uniformity and we tend to give names to different manifestations of the same thing now he took the physics community well over 30 years to understand what i was saying but fortunately in the last six or seven years there is a group of several dozen scientists from all over the world some of them very prominent in gravitation and relativity theory and so on particle
07:34 physics there’s a group of 40 50 scientists from all over the world and they are working on my original theory they took it away they took it way far beyond my original theory i mean they their contributions are massive and far in my very in my in my opinion outweigh my contributions but it’s my work basically they are developing my work they even succeeded to register a patent technological patent based on my work because if i’m right if i’m right and if actually everything is a manifestation of a single thing physics there’s a group of 40 50 scientists from all over the world and they are working on my original theory they took it away they took it way far beyond my original theory i mean they their contributions are massive and far in my very in my in my opinion outweigh my contributions but it’s my work basically they are developing my work they even succeeded to register a patent technological patent based on my work because if i’m right if i’m right and if actually everything is a manifestation of a single thing
08:09 which i call time because i don’t have language i can’t call it anything else but if i’m right then you can convert anything to anything because it’s all manifestations of the same thing and they succeeded to register a patent in the united states converting electricity to gravity and back which is the first the first proof that my theory may be right maybe right of course there’s still a long way to go this is in a nutshell what i did thank you very much uh how can we apply which i call time because i don’t have language i can’t call it anything else but if i’m right then you can convert anything to anything because it’s all manifestations of the same thing and they succeeded to register a patent in the united states converting electricity to gravity and back which is the first the first proof that my theory may be right maybe right of course there’s still a long way to go this is in a nutshell what i did thank you very much uh how can we apply
08:46 this this manifestation of one thing of time how can we apply this to present republic of macedonia is our collective consciousness uh manifesting some memories from the past and what would you say us about the connection with the ancient macedonia time and present republic of macedonia people like scholars like jung they came up with the concept of collective unconscious in more recently we have the new branch in biology known as epigenetics which is essentially um a kind of lamarckism there was a debate this this manifestation of one thing of time how can we apply this to present republic of macedonia is our collective consciousness uh manifesting some memories from the past and what would you say us about the connection with the ancient macedonia time and present republic of macedonia people like scholars like jung they came up with the concept of collective unconscious in more recently we have the new branch in biology known as epigenetics which is essentially um a kind of lamarckism there was a debate
09:30 in the 19th century between lamarck and darwin lamarck said that properties and behaviors that are acquired during the life of the organism are transferred transferred to the offspring of the organism so if a giraffe or a chimpanzee learns something new they will transfer it genetically to the offspring and darwin said this is nonsense each generation starts essentially from zero through a process of natural selection responsive to the environment for a very long time until recently we were all darwinists in the 19th century between lamarck and darwin lamarck said that properties and behaviors that are acquired during the life of the organism are transferred transferred to the offspring of the organism so if a giraffe or a chimpanzee learns something new they will transfer it genetically to the offspring and darwin said this is nonsense each generation starts essentially from zero through a process of natural selection responsive to the environment for a very long time until recently we were all darwinists
10:08 and we discarded la marchism we said lamarckism is nonsense but there’s a new branch of biology legitimate branch not pseudoscience yes it’s called epigenetics and we’re discovering that the environment has an impact on genetic material and it’s transferred environmental changes are transferred via genetic material to next generations in the inside in the field of psychology jung came up with the concept of collective unconscious he said that we all carry information from previous generations and we discarded la marchism we said lamarckism is nonsense but there’s a new branch of biology legitimate branch not pseudoscience yes it’s called epigenetics and we’re discovering that the environment has an impact on genetic material and it’s transferred environmental changes are transferred via genetic material to next generations in the inside in the field of psychology jung came up with the concept of collective unconscious he said that we all carry information from previous generations
10:43 and this information is embedded in our brain he said that this information is codified via a series of symbols or symbolic representations which he called archetypes yes and the archetypes codified this information and carry it forward from one generation to the next it’s the way we relate to the world based on previous generations experience and knowledge and so on and so forth of course we don’t need all this mess we don’t need epigenetics we don’t need collective conscious we have books books movies and this information is embedded in our brain he said that this information is codified via a series of symbols or symbolic representations which he called archetypes yes and the archetypes codified this information and carry it forward from one generation to the next it’s the way we relate to the world based on previous generations experience and knowledge and so on and so forth of course we don’t need all this mess we don’t need epigenetics we don’t need collective conscious we have books books movies
11:19 art is is our cultural dna it is a message from previous generations michelangelo talks to me directly because he had written letters and i can read his letters you know so did one go so they all talked to me directly and they are van gogh had been much more influential in my life than most of my neighbors so we codify previous generations we embed them in works of culture and art and we transfer them forward and they have an immense impact on our mind you have read my articles it had some impact on you you know we art is is our cultural dna it is a message from previous generations michelangelo talks to me directly because he had written letters and i can read his letters you know so did one go so they all talked to me directly and they are van gogh had been much more influential in my life than most of my neighbors so we codify previous generations we embed them in works of culture and art and we transfer them forward and they have an immense impact on our mind you have read my articles it had some impact on you you know we
12:03 use language to affect each other across time and across generations the concept of nation state is a very new concept it’s 19th century concept it didn’t exist before the concept of ethnicity is a lot older the concept of race is nonsensical there’s no such thing as race it’s total nonsense biologically and it was of course invented by racists macedonians are like every other ethnicity on earth an admixture and concoction of multiple biological entities which migrated across great distances use language to affect each other across time and across generations the concept of nation state is a very new concept it’s 19th century concept it didn’t exist before the concept of ethnicity is a lot older the concept of race is nonsensical there’s no such thing as race it’s total nonsense biologically and it was of course invented by racists macedonians are like every other ethnicity on earth an admixture and concoction of multiple biological entities which migrated across great distances
12:49 intermarried intermingled even neanderthals and cromagnons mated and had common descendants and they were very different to each other they were almost you know different families they’re not neanderthals were not fully human they were humanoid but still there was mating there was so of course you cannot pinpoint and say this is a macedonian this is a jew this is a it’s no longer valid it’s we we are intermixed we are we are the outcome of a huge cocktail of migrations into marriages births intermarried intermingled even neanderthals and cromagnons mated and had common descendants and they were very different to each other they were almost you know different families they’re not neanderthals were not fully human they were humanoid but still there was mating there was so of course you cannot pinpoint and say this is a macedonian this is a jew this is a it’s no longer valid it’s we we are intermixed we are we are the outcome of a huge cocktail of migrations into marriages births
13:29 deaths inheritances invasions collaborations i mean so occupations so but to be a macedonian i think is not about biology it’s a mistake to reduce macedonianism to biology to be a macedonian is a state of mind in a state of mind that carries through generations carries through outside the borders of macedonia because huge number of macedonians are living outside macedonia of course is embedded in macedonia the macedonian state and macedonian institutions both formal institutions and informal deaths inheritances invasions collaborations i mean so occupations so but to be a macedonian i think is not about biology it’s a mistake to reduce macedonianism to biology to be a macedonian is a state of mind in a state of mind that carries through generations carries through outside the borders of macedonia because huge number of macedonians are living outside macedonia of course is embedded in macedonia the macedonian state and macedonian institutions both formal institutions and informal
14:11 institutions like the family of the community of the village all these institutions reflect of course this cultural social heritage not biological heritage that’s nonsensical but cultural social heritage macedonians are distinct absolutely distinct i can spot a macedonian from a mile away they are distinct because they share this cultural social heritage and you will do well to define yourselves by this dimension not by any invented chauvinistic nationalistic dimension which has no validity institutions like the family of the community of the village all these institutions reflect of course this cultural social heritage not biological heritage that’s nonsensical but cultural social heritage macedonians are distinct absolutely distinct i can spot a macedonian from a mile away they are distinct because they share this cultural social heritage and you will do well to define yourselves by this dimension not by any invented chauvinistic nationalistic dimension which has no validity
14:52 in science or in history what was your first contact in macedonia and how did it happen for you to move to macedonia at the end of 20th century i was advised to many serbian many entities in serbian um banks municipalities mkis which was at the time a huge metal manufacturing facility i was advised to several ministers in the government of milosevic at the time and i was in charge of breaking the embargo because the embargo was enforced inhumanly and people were dying in hospitals and there was starting to be hunger in science or in history what was your first contact in macedonia and how did it happen for you to move to macedonia at the end of 20th century i was advised to many serbian many entities in serbian um banks municipalities mkis which was at the time a huge metal manufacturing facility i was advised to several ministers in the government of milosevic at the time and i was in charge of breaking the embargo because the embargo was enforced inhumanly and people were dying in hospitals and there was starting to be hunger
15:39 there was enormous inflation i worked with the central bank abramovic was the governor of the central bank in serbia it was a jew i was a jew so he called for help i worked with him and we eliminated inflation he eliminated inflation based on some of my advice so we took care of inflation and then i built very complex corporate structures and financial structures to defeat the embargo and i’m glad to say that i succeeded so the embargo was totally ineffective within serbia based on the my work and the work of there was enormous inflation i worked with the central bank abramovic was the governor of the central bank in serbia it was a jew i was a jew so he called for help i worked with him and we eliminated inflation he eliminated inflation based on some of my advice so we took care of inflation and then i built very complex corporate structures and financial structures to defeat the embargo and i’m glad to say that i succeeded so the embargo was totally ineffective within serbia based on the my work and the work of
16:15 several ministers young ministers and and so through through this i came in touch with macedonian businessmen and macedonian companies one of the main one of the main lifelines of serbia during the wars was macedonia goods and services were coming through macedonia through macedonian companies and financial institutions and so on we’re coming into serbia we’re taking advantage of this i i constructed i constructed shell companies in lebanon and many other places who worked with macedonian companies several ministers young ministers and and so through through this i came in touch with macedonian businessmen and macedonian companies one of the main one of the main lifelines of serbia during the wars was macedonia goods and services were coming through macedonia through macedonian companies and financial institutions and so on we’re coming into serbia we’re taking advantage of this i i constructed i constructed shell companies in lebanon and many other places who worked with macedonian companies
16:54 never mind the details macedonia was very helpful macedonia in in some ways saved serbia during that period i would say that about 40 of all illicit goods that came into serbia came through macedonia and with active macedonian collaboration it would not have been possible otherwise including the state banks everyone was working together to help serbia and so when when this finished in 1995 um i had a partner in in serbia he used to be the head of the mossad in the region and he retired he became a never mind the details macedonia was very helpful macedonia in in some ways saved serbia during that period i would say that about 40 of all illicit goods that came into serbia came through macedonia and with active macedonian collaboration it would not have been possible otherwise including the state banks everyone was working together to help serbia and so when when this finished in 1995 um i had a partner in in serbia he used to be the head of the mossad in the region and he retired he became a
17:35 businessman and he moved from serbia to macedonia and he said to me sam this is a young country they’re very confused they’re disoriented they’re in panic the foreigners are taking over they’re telling them what to do and they obey blindly i mean this is a bad situation the country is hostage completely to the imf to many other you know can you come here and and help them the way you help serbia and i did i came here in 1996 i did my best to try to help i worked by the way with all governments i worked initially with businessman and he moved from serbia to macedonia and he said to me sam this is a young country they’re very confused they’re disoriented they’re in panic the foreigners are taking over they’re telling them what to do and they obey blindly i mean this is a bad situation the country is hostage completely to the imf to many other you know can you come here and and help them the way you help serbia and i did i came here in 1996 i did my best to try to help i worked by the way with all governments i worked initially with
18:12 sds governments i worked with the minister of finance at the time i worked with the agency of privatization i worked with the stock exchange i helped to construct the stock exchange so i was involved essentially with asda’s instructions but when i witnessed the corruption and problems i decided to switch sides and i started to work with vengo at the time the memo was jogers so i worked with george in taiko for a while until they became the government and when they and and i was not in macedonia anymore sds governments i worked with the minister of finance at the time i worked with the agency of privatization i worked with the stock exchange i helped to construct the stock exchange so i was involved essentially with asda’s instructions but when i witnessed the corruption and problems i decided to switch sides and i started to work with vengo at the time the memo was jogers so i worked with george in taiko for a while until they became the government and when they and and i was not in macedonia anymore
18:54 i came to macedonia for two years just to help i helped set up stock exchange i helped a little with privatization i helped a lot with all kinds of issues with imf and world bank and then i left i left to russia i moved to russia and to czech republic so i was outside new zealand and gowiski was appointed minister without portfolio and he called me to come back he asked me to come back and be economic advisor to the government together with former prime minister of yugoslavia so we were two two economic advisors i came to macedonia for two years just to help i helped set up stock exchange i helped a little with privatization i helped a lot with all kinds of issues with imf and world bank and then i left i left to russia i moved to russia and to czech republic so i was outside new zealand and gowiski was appointed minister without portfolio and he called me to come back he asked me to come back and be economic advisor to the government together with former prime minister of yugoslavia so we were two two economic advisors
19:31 um and i returned and i became economic advisor to the government not actually to i was economic advisor to the government and within my remit i also worked with the minister of finance when he was appointed minister of finance it’s my recommendation and and other other people’s recommendation so stomanov was minister of finance he was replaced by whiskey and then for the rest of the time i worked with bowenski and i continued to work with goeski after them lost power they lost power justifiably because they um and i returned and i became economic advisor to the government not actually to i was economic advisor to the government and within my remit i also worked with the minister of finance when he was appointed minister of finance it’s my recommendation and and other other people’s recommendation so stomanov was minister of finance he was replaced by whiskey and then for the rest of the time i worked with bowenski and i continued to work with goeski after them lost power they lost power justifiably because they
20:04 were even more corrupt than is the same if it’s possible and so i continued to work with him for a while for several years and [Music] there wasn’t i got married to a macedonian woman lydia and i made macedonia my base my base in the sense that i always had assignments for example now i spent four years in russia in hungary and in the united kingdom so but macedonia is my base i work in other countries i teach i’m a professor of psychology i’m a professor of finance i teach in several universities around were even more corrupt than is the same if it’s possible and so i continued to work with him for a while for several years and [Music] there wasn’t i got married to a macedonian woman lydia and i made macedonia my base my base in the sense that i always had assignments for example now i spent four years in russia in hungary and in the united kingdom so but macedonia is my base i work in other countries i teach i’m a professor of psychology i’m a professor of finance i teach in several universities around
20:44 the world but i always come back to macedonia of course when the pandemic started there was no way i would leave my wife alone in macedonia so i returned in most part of macedonian public you are perceived as the grey eminence behind the rise of nikola grieveski and in some of your interviews i’ve catched a statement that you said correct me if i’m wrong that the team that guruski collected wouldn’t be average managers inside some foreign company so what is your memory from that time and how was our ex the world but i always come back to macedonia of course when the pandemic started there was no way i would leave my wife alone in macedonia so i returned in most part of macedonian public you are perceived as the grey eminence behind the rise of nikola grieveski and in some of your interviews i’ve catched a statement that you said correct me if i’m wrong that the team that guruski collected wouldn’t be average managers inside some foreign company so what is your memory from that time and how was our ex
21:27 prime minister who is now fugitive over there in hungary how was he when he was young did he had a potential for management in organizing or did he learn that through counseling through time well it’s a fact that i picked him up i mean i was i was teaching seminars and courses to thousands of macedonian managers thousands literally agency privatization organized seminars that lasted several months each seminar was 300 managers so thousands i thought i i was teaching to thousands of managers prime minister who is now fugitive over there in hungary how was he when he was young did he had a potential for management in organizing or did he learn that through counseling through time well it’s a fact that i picked him up i mean i was i was teaching seminars and courses to thousands of macedonian managers thousands literally agency privatization organized seminars that lasted several months each seminar was 300 managers so thousands i thought i i was teaching to thousands of managers
22:05 and i was exposed to all managers and brokers and through the stock exchange and so on and of all these thousands of people i picked him and only him i offered to him to write a series of dialogues and these dialogues were published in navnik and later another newspaper and were collected in a book and the book was published that was the first book of gruesky yes it was the first book of gracie i was no longer here i was living in czech republic but he he published a book on his own and and this was his visit card this book and i was exposed to all managers and brokers and through the stock exchange and so on and of all these thousands of people i picked him and only him i offered to him to write a series of dialogues and these dialogues were published in navnik and later another newspaper and were collected in a book and the book was published that was the first book of gruesky yes it was the first book of gracie i was no longer here i was living in czech republic but he he published a book on his own and and this was his visit card this book
22:41 was his visit card yes now why did i pick him up because in many of my seminars i was organizing simulations and in these simulations people were given tasks they were given roles so in many of these simulations i gave the role of a manager or the role of a prime minister or the role of a minister of finance and i was observing how people behave in the simulations this is by the way a common practice in the west it’s known as delphia that’s all so i brought this practice into macedonia i was the first to was his visit card yes now why did i pick him up because in many of my seminars i was organizing simulations and in these simulations people were given tasks they were given roles so in many of these simulations i gave the role of a manager or the role of a prime minister or the role of a minister of finance and i was observing how people behave in the simulations this is by the way a common practice in the west it’s known as delphia that’s all so i brought this practice into macedonia i was the first to
23:14 organize simulation games and i noticed that of all the people who participated in the simulation games the only person with initiative leadership innovative ideas extremely good follow-up and performative or executive capacity in other words the capacity to accomplish goals not only to fantasize the only person literally was nicolas that’s how he stood out he stood out in the simulation games while everybody else was treating it as a game and were fantasizing meandering thinking to the right thinking to the left organize simulation games and i noticed that of all the people who participated in the simulation games the only person with initiative leadership innovative ideas extremely good follow-up and performative or executive capacity in other words the capacity to accomplish goals not only to fantasize the only person literally was nicolas that’s how he stood out he stood out in the simulation games while everybody else was treating it as a game and were fantasizing meandering thinking to the right thinking to the left
23:56 arguing macedonians love to argue and so on so forth nikola came into the scene sometimes late and within minutes everyone would be working together in a coherent manner to accomplish goals i was very impressed he was a kid he was a child he was working as a low-level broker in a tiny bank balkans capacity and he had he didn’t have his own desk the first time i met him he was sharing a desk with two other people and the manager called him and told him make coffee for vacny and he ran to the kitchen and he made arguing macedonians love to argue and so on so forth nikola came into the scene sometimes late and within minutes everyone would be working together in a coherent manner to accomplish goals i was very impressed he was a kid he was a child he was working as a low-level broker in a tiny bank balkans capacity and he had he didn’t have his own desk the first time i met him he was sharing a desk with two other people and the manager called him and told him make coffee for vacny and he ran to the kitchen and he made
24:33 coffee for wacking so this was his status in the back it was very low level but i realized that he has enormous potential and i remember once we were traveling in his rickety old car that he finally succeeded to save money and buy i think it cost 500 dollars if i remember they were driving this car and he said sam what do you think about me i said i think in a few years he would be prime minister of macedonia and i remember how he left he thought i was kidding him i said i’m not kidding you coffee for wacking so this was his status in the back it was very low level but i realized that he has enormous potential and i remember once we were traveling in his rickety old car that he finally succeeded to save money and buy i think it cost 500 dollars if i remember they were driving this car and he said sam what do you think about me i said i think in a few years he would be prime minister of macedonia and i remember how he left he thought i was kidding him i said i’m not kidding you
25:07 in a few years you’re going to be prime minister of masada and i was not wrong nikola is not a great innovator it’s not but he is wonderful at accepting innovation he is extremely open-minded he is daring he’s a daring person he doesn’t he’s courageous he embarks on long-term huge projects he is the best organizer and manager i ever came across in macedonia and i came across everyone trust me from svetozki down i know them all i’ve worked with them all it is by far the best in a few years you’re going to be prime minister of masada and i was not wrong nikola is not a great innovator it’s not but he is wonderful at accepting innovation he is extremely open-minded he is daring he’s a daring person he doesn’t he’s courageous he embarks on long-term huge projects he is the best organizer and manager i ever came across in macedonia and i came across everyone trust me from svetozki down i know them all i’ve worked with them all it is by far the best
25:55 it’s intuitive it’s if you wish collective unconscious it’s something in his genes he didn’t learn it anything he didn’t study management anyway and he struck me as the person who can take macedonia forward regrettably i’m not sure that his level of emotional maturity matched his level of managerial capacity and this allowed people around him to take advantage of his vulnerabilities number one his need to be liked and loved he needs to be accepted and liked and loved he has very thin skin it’s intuitive it’s if you wish collective unconscious it’s something in his genes he didn’t learn it anything he didn’t study management anyway and he struck me as the person who can take macedonia forward regrettably i’m not sure that his level of emotional maturity matched his level of managerial capacity and this allowed people around him to take advantage of his vulnerabilities number one his need to be liked and loved he needs to be accepted and liked and loved he has very thin skin
26:39 he gets hurt very very easily you can hurt this man very easily he’s constantly in pain when he’s rejected people knew that so they took advantage of his need to be loved and liked and accepted they gave him a fake sense of family fake sense of belonging and then essentially they could do almost anything they wanted with it and regrettably he allowed himself to to some extent to be manipulated although he’s a very strong man he has boundaries he’s but not not with his closest nearest and dearest he gets hurt very very easily you can hurt this man very easily he’s constantly in pain when he’s rejected people knew that so they took advantage of his need to be loved and liked and accepted they gave him a fake sense of family fake sense of belonging and then essentially they could do almost anything they wanted with it and regrettably he allowed himself to to some extent to be manipulated although he’s a very strong man he has boundaries he’s but not not with his closest nearest and dearest
27:19 and he let them he let them do this to him nicolas is a good man a truly good man an extremely talented man the best manager organizer and leader that macedonia ever had and ever likely to have but this vulnerabilities that i’ve mentioned led him to where he’s today regrettably it’s a huge loss for macedonia i was a witness because i was part in 2012 for working for some close people to nikola grievsky for a year after that i saw with what i mean and i quit it so you’re mentioning something that and he let them he let them do this to him nicolas is a good man a truly good man an extremely talented man the best manager organizer and leader that macedonia ever had and ever likely to have but this vulnerabilities that i’ve mentioned led him to where he’s today regrettably it’s a huge loss for macedonia i was a witness because i was part in 2012 for working for some close people to nikola grievsky for a year after that i saw with what i mean and i quit it so you’re mentioning something that
28:06 some of macedonians know about his emotional vulnerability we know that he didn’t apply the machiavellian principle better to be feared than to be loved he didn’t apply that and we all witnessed that some of the close people around him were weren’t presenting the reality truly to him but they were lying to him and now my question is did that emotional vulnerability of the ex-prime minister project it on whole macedonian nation my question is did he emotional vulnerability influenced some of macedonians know about his emotional vulnerability we know that he didn’t apply the machiavellian principle better to be feared than to be loved he didn’t apply that and we all witnessed that some of the close people around him were weren’t presenting the reality truly to him but they were lying to him and now my question is did that emotional vulnerability of the ex-prime minister project it on whole macedonian nation my question is did he emotional vulnerability influenced
28:44 the happenings in macedonia and all of the people who lived here all leaders all leaders in history who have mental health issues minor or major don’t have to be major minor like emotional vulnerability it’s a mental health issue all leaders with mental health issues create contagion they infect they infect in concentric circles they infect their closes their closest infect the others the others infect further and finally the whole nation is infected because of their insecurities this kind the happenings in macedonia and all of the people who lived here all leaders all leaders in history who have mental health issues minor or major don’t have to be major minor like emotional vulnerability it’s a mental health issue all leaders with mental health issues create contagion they infect they infect in concentric circles they infect their closes their closest infect the others the others infect further and finally the whole nation is infected because of their insecurities this kind
29:25 of people tend to gravitate towards the personality cult so people with mental health issues like donald trump like joseph stalin you know these people like mao like hitler like in big ways and small ways they create personality cults because they feel secure only within personality cults and personality cult is an echo chamber where you don’t come across criticism disagreement information that challenges your self-image and self-perception you don’t come across adversity and conflict you don’t develop dissonance these of people tend to gravitate towards the personality cult so people with mental health issues like donald trump like joseph stalin you know these people like mao like hitler like in big ways and small ways they create personality cults because they feel secure only within personality cults and personality cult is an echo chamber where you don’t come across criticism disagreement information that challenges your self-image and self-perception you don’t come across adversity and conflict you don’t develop dissonance these
30:08 leaders are actually very fragile people they’re easily breakable when they are confronted with countervailing data they need to isolate themselves in order to function now many of them have been very efficacious leaders i mentioned all these names they’re all very efficient leaders where very efficient leaders but their downfall is because they can’t stand reality they try to convert reality into a fantastic space where they can remain safe and secure and never suffer pain or disorders leaders are actually very fragile people they’re easily breakable when they are confronted with countervailing data they need to isolate themselves in order to function now many of them have been very efficacious leaders i mentioned all these names they’re all very efficient leaders where very efficient leaders but their downfall is because they can’t stand reality they try to convert reality into a fantastic space where they can remain safe and secure and never suffer pain or disorders
30:52 so when you try to force reality to become a fantasy you lose both reality and your fantasy and this is what had happened to all these people reality is stronger than anyone and reality is unpleasant yes 90 of reality is unpleasant yes this is what children learn when they grow up growing up is a process of loss and number one loss number one loss is the view of reality is a good place to be in reality is not a good place to be it’s dystopian reality is abrasive reality is hurtful and painful reality so when you try to force reality to become a fantasy you lose both reality and your fantasy and this is what had happened to all these people reality is stronger than anyone and reality is unpleasant yes 90 of reality is unpleasant yes this is what children learn when they grow up growing up is a process of loss and number one loss number one loss is the view of reality is a good place to be in reality is not a good place to be it’s dystopian reality is abrasive reality is hurtful and painful reality
31:32 is challenging reality leads you to mourning and grieving reality is a horrible place to be it’s a horror movie but if you try to supplant reality with fantasy if your solution is fantasy defense mechanism fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism if you supplant reality with fantasy you can no longer evolve and grow natural selection stops evolution growth maturation critically depends on unbridled unlimited unmitigated access to reality the mother who isolates her child from reality is not doing the child a favor is challenging reality leads you to mourning and grieving reality is a horrible place to be it’s a horror movie but if you try to supplant reality with fantasy if your solution is fantasy defense mechanism fantasy is a psychological defense mechanism if you supplant reality with fantasy you can no longer evolve and grow natural selection stops evolution growth maturation critically depends on unbridled unlimited unmitigated access to reality the mother who isolates her child from reality is not doing the child a favor
32:17 because this child will never grow up to be an adult you need to expose your children to reality i keep saying that the main role of a parent is to push the children away not to hug them to push them away that’s the main role of a good of a good parent the main role of a good leader is to share to share the bad news leadership is not like the evangelion it’s not the good news yes leadership is the bad news the real test of a leader is when the news are bad and that’s what donald trump had failed because this child will never grow up to be an adult you need to expose your children to reality i keep saying that the main role of a parent is to push the children away not to hug them to push them away that’s the main role of a good of a good parent the main role of a good leader is to share to share the bad news leadership is not like the evangelion it’s not the good news yes leadership is the bad news the real test of a leader is when the news are bad and that’s what donald trump had failed
32:59 for example when the news became bad he became delusional because he preferred fantasy to reality and the same with nicolas that’s how he felt too yes because when the news became bad and the news did become dead in the last years of his of his reign of his leadership he refused to see it he continued to occupy his fantastic space thereby he could not adopt only exposure to reality causes you to successfully adapt become certifications and extract favorable outcomes only of course it’s painful process for example when the news became bad he became delusional because he preferred fantasy to reality and the same with nicolas that’s how he felt too yes because when the news became bad and the news did become dead in the last years of his of his reign of his leadership he refused to see it he continued to occupy his fantastic space thereby he could not adopt only exposure to reality causes you to successfully adapt become certifications and extract favorable outcomes only of course it’s painful process
33:37 adaptation and change always painful but if you are that pain averse don’t be a leader don’t have children there is a saying if you hate the smells of cooking don’t enter the kitchen so uh looking 20 years and more years back and all those since we were very young we remember those articles in the daily newspaper that you published in the book that you mentioned and how do you see macedonian economy now were those hopes from the beginning of 20th 21st century were those hopes and all that working adaptation and change always painful but if you are that pain averse don’t be a leader don’t have children there is a saying if you hate the smells of cooking don’t enter the kitchen so uh looking 20 years and more years back and all those since we were very young we remember those articles in the daily newspaper that you published in the book that you mentioned and how do you see macedonian economy now were those hopes from the beginning of 20th 21st century were those hopes and all that working
34:18 and changing putting taxes fiscal economy all of that stuff do you see it as a successful project in the past 20 or something years or do you see macedonia or something representation of something else well i as i told you i’ve been out of macedonia way for four years i’m i can’t say that i’m updated but from what i see what i see you realize of course that macedonia started with enormous unconquerable disadvantages yes few countries to my recollection few countries in human history started and changing putting taxes fiscal economy all of that stuff do you see it as a successful project in the past 20 or something years or do you see macedonia or something representation of something else well i as i told you i’ve been out of macedonia way for four years i’m i can’t say that i’m updated but from what i see what i see you realize of course that macedonia started with enormous unconquerable disadvantages yes few countries to my recollection few countries in human history started
35:02 with such disadvantages as macedonia did anywhere from insurgencies to embargoes to crazy neighbors to i mean you name it and yet despite all this which is indeed the macedonian character going back to the beginning of our conversation your survivors your survivors you’re very patient even you are you you you’re too patient you’re survivors and so you had survived when you look at the macedonian from what i see this is the caveat it’s only what i see from you look at them if you look at with such disadvantages as macedonia did anywhere from insurgencies to embargoes to crazy neighbors to i mean you name it and yet despite all this which is indeed the macedonian character going back to the beginning of our conversation your survivors your survivors you’re very patient even you are you you you’re too patient you’re survivors and so you had survived when you look at the macedonian from what i see this is the caveat it’s only what i see from you look at them if you look at
35:37 macedonian economy it’s in much better condition than it was when i came here of course the financial sector is in much better condition manufacturing sector is streamlined even agriculture is improving exports imports are on a good line in my view the dependence on outside flows of income from international multinational international institutions such as imf world bank this dependence is gone it’s no longer true remittances are still important but otherwise macedonia is much more self-sufficient than it was in macedonian economy it’s in much better condition than it was when i came here of course the financial sector is in much better condition manufacturing sector is streamlined even agriculture is improving exports imports are on a good line in my view the dependence on outside flows of income from international multinational international institutions such as imf world bank this dependence is gone it’s no longer true remittances are still important but otherwise macedonia is much more self-sufficient than it was in
36:14 the 90s and so on and thereby much more independent politically in other words you’re integrated in nato probably you will be in the european union at some point although i’m not quite sure what’s the big deal about this um so i think you’re moving in the right direction and uh i think you have gained a lot you’ve made big gains in in terms of your economy even unemployment is down and so on the only black cloud is the brain drain brain drain of macedonians um your best minds have left the 90s and so on and thereby much more independent politically in other words you’re integrated in nato probably you will be in the european union at some point although i’m not quite sure what’s the big deal about this um so i think you’re moving in the right direction and uh i think you have gained a lot you’ve made big gains in in terms of your economy even unemployment is down and so on the only black cloud is the brain drain brain drain of macedonians um your best minds have left
36:55 no offence your best minds your youngest minds have left that doesn’t bode well for your future you if if i were to make two recommendations it would be to diversify the economy by introducing much more i.t much more back office services uh to to emulate india not as far as kovid as far as his economy emulate india to become a service nation essentially to shift emphasis from agriculture and manufacturing to services especially is a great location for outsourcing and have potential people yes so i would do this this is no offence your best minds your youngest minds have left that doesn’t bode well for your future you if if i were to make two recommendations it would be to diversify the economy by introducing much more i.t much more back office services uh to to emulate india not as far as kovid as far as his economy emulate india to become a service nation essentially to shift emphasis from agriculture and manufacturing to services especially is a great location for outsourcing and have potential people yes so i would do this this is
37:38 first recommendation immediate diversification of the economy immediate and the second thing i would do i would place i would subject all the resources of the state with no exception and without one macedonian donor left all of it to attracting back young educated people israel is doing this israel is doing this if you return to israel after five years you don’t pay taxes for 10 years you get apartment and all the appliances within the apartment for half price so israel is attracting back young educated people 190 000 this year first recommendation immediate diversification of the economy immediate and the second thing i would do i would place i would subject all the resources of the state with no exception and without one macedonian donor left all of it to attracting back young educated people israel is doing this israel is doing this if you return to israel after five years you don’t pay taxes for 10 years you get apartment and all the appliances within the apartment for half price so israel is attracting back young educated people 190 000 this year
38:20 alone wow macedonia needs to attract these people back because it’s not only their brains they’re bringing back they’re bringing back networks of contacts they are bringing back exposure to the practices of the world they are bringing back intimate knowledge with new technologies so technological knowledge will spread into the genes because they learned it up there so they’re bringing back a lot and this is your treasure this is your treasure and yet you are doing nothing to attract them back which is a great alone wow macedonia needs to attract these people back because it’s not only their brains they’re bringing back they’re bringing back networks of contacts they are bringing back exposure to the practices of the world they are bringing back intimate knowledge with new technologies so technological knowledge will spread into the genes because they learned it up there so they’re bringing back a lot and this is your treasure this is your treasure and yet you are doing nothing to attract them back which is a great
38:53 thing one of the reasons i think is that your politician we have vast land for agriculture we have i worked in several countries visited plenty of business parks in the states we have plenty of space to build new business parks to get all of our it’s engineers economics that are abroad to come here but unfortunately no one does that i will give my own example i studied abroad i wasn’t in macedonia for 10 years i am here for 10 years and i decided not to move again because as we say the rock thing one of the reasons i think is that your politician we have vast land for agriculture we have i worked in several countries visited plenty of business parks in the states we have plenty of space to build new business parks to get all of our it’s engineers economics that are abroad to come here but unfortunately no one does that i will give my own example i studied abroad i wasn’t in macedonia for 10 years i am here for 10 years and i decided not to move again because as we say the rock
39:28 awaits on its own place and i still hope that there is a because that hope is something that’s natural even though sometimes it’s very dangerous i still still hope that uh in my i’m 36 that people that are around my generation and the younger ones have the already the consciousness for the new new century and with uh now i need to ask this question as a normal citizens business owners researchers we witnessed that all those leaders from previous century end of 20th century and now all those awaits on its own place and i still hope that there is a because that hope is something that’s natural even though sometimes it’s very dangerous i still still hope that uh in my i’m 36 that people that are around my generation and the younger ones have the already the consciousness for the new new century and with uh now i need to ask this question as a normal citizens business owners researchers we witnessed that all those leaders from previous century end of 20th century and now all those
40:10 macedonian leaders all of them have something that they need to be glorified as you said no one of them uh wasn’t so honest to confront the problems because the the reality is really cruel and all that fake propaganda with positive positive fake positive information just distracts our hope and demotivates us so uh emotional disbalance as i read in some of your texts is one of the baselines for a future narcissism and that’s all i will ask you right away uh are macedonian rulers narcissists and are they psychopaths macedonian leaders all of them have something that they need to be glorified as you said no one of them uh wasn’t so honest to confront the problems because the the reality is really cruel and all that fake propaganda with positive positive fake positive information just distracts our hope and demotivates us so uh emotional disbalance as i read in some of your texts is one of the baselines for a future narcissism and that’s all i will ask you right away uh are macedonian rulers narcissists and are they psychopaths
41:00 i don’t know about psychopaths i think let me let me retrace a bit and you know as you have a saying hair doesn’t grow on my tongue so i i say what i think bluntly many people dislike it your viewers may dislike your listeners may dislike it but still people who had been suppressed and oppressed people i mean collectives groups of people nations ethnicities who have been suppressed and oppressed throughout the majority of their common history tend to compensate for their weakness for their i don’t know about psychopaths i think let me let me retrace a bit and you know as you have a saying hair doesn’t grow on my tongue so i i say what i think bluntly many people dislike it your viewers may dislike your listeners may dislike it but still people who had been suppressed and oppressed people i mean collectives groups of people nations ethnicities who have been suppressed and oppressed throughout the majority of their common history tend to compensate for their weakness for their
41:47 shortcomings vulnerabilities by becoming narcissistic and grandiose so if you have a collective which had been subjected to humiliation [Music] repeated humiliations tortures uh confiscations of property disrespect extreme disrespect this kind of collective naturally will develop defenses it’s impossible to live with daily humiliation daily disrespect daily it’s impossible to look at your child’s eyes when you as a father you’re humiliated by an ottoman officer you know it’s it’s very so shortcomings vulnerabilities by becoming narcissistic and grandiose so if you have a collective which had been subjected to humiliation [Music] repeated humiliations tortures uh confiscations of property disrespect extreme disrespect this kind of collective naturally will develop defenses it’s impossible to live with daily humiliation daily disrespect daily it’s impossible to look at your child’s eyes when you as a father you’re humiliated by an ottoman officer you know it’s it’s very so
42:35 it’s natural to develop narcissistic defenses grandiose defenses it’s a natural in individuals as well it’s a natural defense to trauma and abuse in early childhood i think like the jews for example macedonians have disembedded grandiose element or grandiose trick we are special we are unique we know we are the chosen we know best macedonia is a very strong resistance to learning we know best um who are you to tell me um etc so these are all grandiose defenses now of course the leader the leader is it’s natural to develop narcissistic defenses grandiose defenses it’s a natural in individuals as well it’s a natural defense to trauma and abuse in early childhood i think like the jews for example macedonians have disembedded grandiose element or grandiose trick we are special we are unique we know we are the chosen we know best macedonia is a very strong resistance to learning we know best um who are you to tell me um etc so these are all grandiose defenses now of course the leader the leader is
43:21 the amplification and raiification and concentration of the collective that he is leading is the blank screen upon which everyone project their own defenses wishes hopes fantasies and so on but only there’s good leaders successful leaders a blank screens essentially and so naturally you see the macedonian grandiose defenses amplified magnified and concentrated in in the in the personalities of your leaders and your leaders are highly narcissistic i won’t say psychopathic no highly narcissistic they’re highly the amplification and raiification and concentration of the collective that he is leading is the blank screen upon which everyone project their own defenses wishes hopes fantasies and so on but only there’s good leaders successful leaders a blank screens essentially and so naturally you see the macedonian grandiose defenses amplified magnified and concentrated in in the in the personalities of your leaders and your leaders are highly narcissistic i won’t say psychopathic no highly narcissistic they’re highly
44:04 grandiose they’re divorced from reality they’ve impaired reality testing in many cases they they resort to fantasy narcissism is a fantasy defense narcissism is about fantasies of grandeur fantasies of you know so fantasy defense so the result of fantasies a lot they reject reality very often this reality really has been had been unbearable and intolerable in macedonia so you have this of course you have this because you are like that yeah now macedonians have a complication you’re weak and small you’ve always been grandiose they’re divorced from reality they’ve impaired reality testing in many cases they they resort to fantasy narcissism is a fantasy defense narcissism is about fantasies of grandeur fantasies of you know so fantasy defense so the result of fantasies a lot they reject reality very often this reality really has been had been unbearable and intolerable in macedonia so you have this of course you have this because you are like that yeah now macedonians have a complication you’re weak and small you’ve always been
44:45 weak and small you’ve always been mistreated and abused by others you had developed a defense of grandiosity but you cannot express this grandiosity because if you express this grandiosity openly you will be punished so you develop something which we call in psychology passive aggression you became passive aggressive you are never openly aggressive but you sabotage you sabotage you never torture anyone but you make you make the other person’s life hell you will never slap or beat up someone like in serbia weak and small you’ve always been mistreated and abused by others you had developed a defense of grandiosity but you cannot express this grandiosity because if you express this grandiosity openly you will be punished so you develop something which we call in psychology passive aggression you became passive aggressive you are never openly aggressive but you sabotage you sabotage you never torture anyone but you make you make the other person’s life hell you will never slap or beat up someone like in serbia
45:25 but you will make their lives hell you will make it very difficult for them to to smile you know you will uh if you’re an official in the government or something you will insist on the tiniest letter of the law so as to not give the service or harass the citizen your passive aggression manifests in in many ways because your grandiosity is suppressed not allowed to be expressed and because you’re constantly abused and mistreated to this very day maltreated i mean you’re constantly well but you will make their lives hell you will make it very difficult for them to to smile you know you will uh if you’re an official in the government or something you will insist on the tiniest letter of the law so as to not give the service or harass the citizen your passive aggression manifests in in many ways because your grandiosity is suppressed not allowed to be expressed and because you’re constantly abused and mistreated to this very day maltreated i mean you’re constantly well
46:02 treated and abused you didn’t have a break you didn’t have a time where to recover and i really pity you as a collective it’s it’s very similar to the jews but the jews at least succeeded to establish a state where they are the strongest power in the in the neighborhood and anyone who dares to say anything is punished immediately in the most severe way so the jews somehow transcended their collective weakness because the holocaust was such a trauma that the jews said never more that’s it there was a holocaust in some treated and abused you didn’t have a break you didn’t have a time where to recover and i really pity you as a collective it’s it’s very similar to the jews but the jews at least succeeded to establish a state where they are the strongest power in the in the neighborhood and anyone who dares to say anything is punished immediately in the most severe way so the jews somehow transcended their collective weakness because the holocaust was such a trauma that the jews said never more that’s it there was a holocaust in some
46:36 ways luckily for the jewish people there was a holocaust luckily in some ways because it woke them up they woke up the jews also had fantasies the jude has jews had fantasies of becoming german or becoming french citizens of the world they thought they’re going to become citizens of the world they said anti-semitism is dead now we are all citizens of the world they had fantasies they refused to confront reality even when the nazis came to power the jews were denying that anything horrible is going to ways luckily for the jewish people there was a holocaust luckily in some ways because it woke them up they woke up the jews also had fantasies the jude has jews had fantasies of becoming german or becoming french citizens of the world they thought they’re going to become citizens of the world they said anti-semitism is dead now we are all citizens of the world they had fantasies they refused to confront reality even when the nazis came to power the jews were denying that anything horrible is going to
47:06 happen so and they woke up the holocaust woke them up and they said okay if that’s the case now we understand and we are going to be the abusers from now we had been abused for 2000 years now we are going to be the abusers no one is going to abuse us anymore we can abuse everyone of course it’s a sick sick decision it’s pathological decision it’s a post-traumatic pathological decision the decision to be grandiose the decision to be an abuser the decision to depend uh to blackmail emotionally blackmail happen so and they woke up the holocaust woke them up and they said okay if that’s the case now we understand and we are going to be the abusers from now we had been abused for 2000 years now we are going to be the abusers no one is going to abuse us anymore we can abuse everyone of course it’s a sick sick decision it’s pathological decision it’s a post-traumatic pathological decision the decision to be grandiose the decision to be an abuser the decision to depend uh to blackmail emotionally blackmail
47:46 all these decisions are essentially sick pathological reactions to abuse and trauma passive aggression we react to abusing trauma in a variety of ways the macedonian way is grandiose passive aggression the israeli way is psychopathy in essence israel is a psychopathic state completely so each one of us reacts differently the serbian way is to be victim the serbians are great on being victims they emotionally blackmail the world because they’re always victims never like what they do they’re victims all these decisions are essentially sick pathological reactions to abuse and trauma passive aggression we react to abusing trauma in a variety of ways the macedonian way is grandiose passive aggression the israeli way is psychopathy in essence israel is a psychopathic state completely so each one of us reacts differently the serbian way is to be victim the serbians are great on being victims they emotionally blackmail the world because they’re always victims never like what they do they’re victims
48:26 each nation each collective react differently can that my next question is can that passive aggression express in big vast protests or destruction and in your opinion what should have what more should happen to wake macedonian sub because everything that you mentioned from the past i don’t want to repeat our history but if we go from second world war to present day like there was a genocide in aegean macedonia in the ex yugoslavia plenty of people were tortured not physically only but psychologically each nation each collective react differently can that my next question is can that passive aggression express in big vast protests or destruction and in your opinion what should have what more should happen to wake macedonian sub because everything that you mentioned from the past i don’t want to repeat our history but if we go from second world war to present day like there was a genocide in aegean macedonia in the ex yugoslavia plenty of people were tortured not physically only but psychologically
49:04 uh since 91st we are all bombarded with especially my generation i was in first grade in 1991. so when we started in school the macedonia became independent so we are witnessing on all of that torture that we have and we go if i do a little analysis of the 21st century in macedonia uh for me the my opinion as an economist that the ex ex rulership of gruevsky and his team unfortunately escaped very much from reality and did a great diversification in the people now we have plenty of poor people and a small amount uh since 91st we are all bombarded with especially my generation i was in first grade in 1991. so when we started in school the macedonia became independent so we are witnessing on all of that torture that we have and we go if i do a little analysis of the 21st century in macedonia uh for me the my opinion as an economist that the ex ex rulership of gruevsky and his team unfortunately escaped very much from reality and did a great diversification in the people now we have plenty of poor people and a small amount
49:45 of extremely rich people the we witnessed that uh all that free economy thing is not applicable to macedonia because no one here measured actually how much food do we need how much do we produce what can we produce what should we import what should be export and i it’s honest thing to have a suspicion that there is a conspiracy behind but as you’ve said the leaders are projection from the people and from the collective consciousness and if we go back now this that contract that bad contract of extremely rich people the we witnessed that uh all that free economy thing is not applicable to macedonia because no one here measured actually how much food do we need how much do we produce what can we produce what should we import what should be export and i it’s honest thing to have a suspicion that there is a conspiracy behind but as you’ve said the leaders are projection from the people and from the collective consciousness and if we go back now this that contract that bad contract
50:20 with greece with bulgaria what albania is doing to us what serbia is doing with the church so we’re pressed from all of our neighbors and my question is what more should should happen to muslim for macedonians to wake up because we reach the point of the abyss the spiral went to his uh the spirals rolled into into the point and now needs to unwrap again and we all hope that something will happen but psychologically we see all this i’ll i have the opportunity and free will to express myself publicly with greece with bulgaria what albania is doing to us what serbia is doing with the church so we’re pressed from all of our neighbors and my question is what more should should happen to muslim for macedonians to wake up because we reach the point of the abyss the spiral went to his uh the spirals rolled into into the point and now needs to unwrap again and we all hope that something will happen but psychologically we see all this i’ll i have the opportunity and free will to express myself publicly
51:00 in the medias on the social networks through my blog through my books and i’m very glad that we are similar in that thing to doing don’t having a hair on our tongue and saying everything that we mean so i hope that we will not need a war to wake us up even though the war is actually for our souls now and as you said in the previous government they did all these projects all those monuments but neither one of the monuments have the original flag with 16 symbols they are all with 14 15. so uh learning symbolism in the medias on the social networks through my blog through my books and i’m very glad that we are similar in that thing to doing don’t having a hair on our tongue and saying everything that we mean so i hope that we will not need a war to wake us up even though the war is actually for our souls now and as you said in the previous government they did all these projects all those monuments but neither one of the monuments have the original flag with 16 symbols they are all with 14 15. so uh learning symbolism
51:37 symbolism and as a esoteric sciences hermeticism and i’m interested very deep in occultism there’s no play with the symbology symbols are very strong they are esoteric and exotic and my opinion is that all those monuments that were made to scorpio instead of making good thing they created bad thing because as a symbol they weren’t completed neither one of the sun’s head of the appealing of the sun didn’t had 16 rays when they put the alexander statue they didn’t put alexander the race name they symbolism and as a esoteric sciences hermeticism and i’m interested very deep in occultism there’s no play with the symbology symbols are very strong they are esoteric and exotic and my opinion is that all those monuments that were made to scorpio instead of making good thing they created bad thing because as a symbol they weren’t completed neither one of the sun’s head of the appealing of the sun didn’t had 16 rays when they put the alexander statue they didn’t put alexander the race name they
52:10 put some horse warrior so there is no playing with symbols if like in those runes like if the rune is upward it’s good omen if it’s backwards it’s bad omen like in tarot cards so i think that that symbology destructed more brought more destruction and with this government that is now in the past years with all those country contracts with the neighbors everything that’s happening inside the state things are going really bad in bad way so my question is according to your opinion as a doctor of put some horse warrior so there is no playing with symbols if like in those runes like if the rune is upward it’s good omen if it’s backwards it’s bad omen like in tarot cards so i think that that symbology destructed more brought more destruction and with this government that is now in the past years with all those country contracts with the neighbors everything that’s happening inside the state things are going really bad in bad way so my question is according to your opinion as a doctor of
52:44 psychology finance what should happen for more should happen for macedonians to wake up wasn’t this enough till now or do we need to suffer more i’ll try to be a bit more practical um i’m not very strong on esoteric sciences i’m a scientist by by training so first of all macedonians are much more assertive now even i would say aggressive than they were 25 years ago that’s for sure 25 years ago i could do anything i wanted to macedonian and he will never ever protest today i’m likely to be slapped for doing psychology finance what should happen for more should happen for macedonians to wake up wasn’t this enough till now or do we need to suffer more i’ll try to be a bit more practical um i’m not very strong on esoteric sciences i’m a scientist by by training so first of all macedonians are much more assertive now even i would say aggressive than they were 25 years ago that’s for sure 25 years ago i could do anything i wanted to macedonian and he will never ever protest today i’m likely to be slapped for doing
53:28 the same things and i’m happy that this is the way maybe that this is the way things are i’m happy that young macedonians are much more assertive much more stand up for themselves have more boundaries and self-respect and will not let anyone mistreat them the way many foreigners and others mistreated macedonians 25 years ago with impunity so there’s a lot a lot more assertiveness even aggression in some cases i think you’re one of the major problems of macedonia is that you don’t have the same things and i’m happy that this is the way maybe that this is the way things are i’m happy that young macedonians are much more assertive much more stand up for themselves have more boundaries and self-respect and will not let anyone mistreat them the way many foreigners and others mistreated macedonians 25 years ago with impunity so there’s a lot a lot more assertiveness even aggression in some cases i think you’re one of the major problems of macedonia is that you don’t have
54:04 cohesion or coherence of an of a national sense the jews constructed the state of israel because they were able to rely 100 blindly on the diaspora the diaspora provided the nascent jewish state in 1948 with weapons with money with access with contacts with influence all the jews stood unified behind israel there was no dissenter and no heretic and they continued to stand unified behind israel until very recently recently there are very worrying fissures among jews outside israel because the jewish state had become psychopathic cohesion or coherence of an of a national sense the jews constructed the state of israel because they were able to rely 100 blindly on the diaspora the diaspora provided the nascent jewish state in 1948 with weapons with money with access with contacts with influence all the jews stood unified behind israel there was no dissenter and no heretic and they continued to stand unified behind israel until very recently recently there are very worrying fissures among jews outside israel because the jewish state had become psychopathic
54:46 and jews with good conscience cannot support this so there’s a big problem though but until recently you don’t have this you don’t have you don’t have national cohesion which stretches across continents and across across oceans you don’t have unified support you are very fractured and fragmented even internally within macedonia you still have village or tribal mentality rather than national mentality you still put local patriotism above patriotism you still have distinctions and and jews with good conscience cannot support this so there’s a big problem though but until recently you don’t have this you don’t have you don’t have national cohesion which stretches across continents and across across oceans you don’t have unified support you are very fractured and fragmented even internally within macedonia you still have village or tribal mentality rather than national mentality you still put local patriotism above patriotism you still have distinctions and
55:34 differences which set you apart rather than put you together and you enhance and encourage and cherish these differences you celebrate your differences not your commonalities consequently you’re unable never mind how hard you try you’re unable to come up with a vision which would be acceptable to everyone because local interests local affiliations and allegiances local patronage networks are far stronger than the state and far stronger than any political party and far stronger than any think tank or group of intellectuals differences which set you apart rather than put you together and you enhance and encourage and cherish these differences you celebrate your differences not your commonalities consequently you’re unable never mind how hard you try you’re unable to come up with a vision which would be acceptable to everyone because local interests local affiliations and allegiances local patronage networks are far stronger than the state and far stronger than any political party and far stronger than any think tank or group of intellectuals
56:14 which leads me to the next point you have no intellectuals there is no there is no future without intelligence the greatest revolutions in human history the october revolution in russia even bad revolutions like the nazi revolution zionism of course they started with intellectuals not with politicians yeah not politicians not with peasants not with villagers not with factory workers not with the army that’s all nonsense it started with intellectuals and the intellectuals preceded the revolution by decades which leads me to the next point you have no intellectuals there is no there is no future without intelligence the greatest revolutions in human history the october revolution in russia even bad revolutions like the nazi revolution zionism of course they started with intellectuals not with politicians yeah not politicians not with peasants not with villagers not with factory workers not with the army that’s all nonsense it started with intellectuals and the intellectuals preceded the revolution by decades
56:58 so a process of intellectual fermentation precedes any transformation the problem of macedonia it has many professors but no intellectuals an intellectual is someone with or without an academic degree who has a clear-eyed vision of reality and communicates it fearlessly and selflessly do you know one person in macedonia who fits this bill because i don’t i’m not talking about you i’m talking about let’s say those who are considered national level intellectual i don’t know one of them who fits the so a process of intellectual fermentation precedes any transformation the problem of macedonia it has many professors but no intellectuals an intellectual is someone with or without an academic degree who has a clear-eyed vision of reality and communicates it fearlessly and selflessly do you know one person in macedonia who fits this bill because i don’t i’m not talking about you i’m talking about let’s say those who are considered national level intellectual i don’t know one of them who fits the
57:41 bill of a public intellectual they’re academics and they’re respected for their academic accomplishments but they’re not public intellectuals they’re definitely not what we call thought leaders so you’re like a herd without a shepherd they’re not shepherds because what were the prophets who is moses who is muhammad who is jesus they were in public intellectuals yes and so in the absence of prophets you cannot have a religion [Music] the religion of your future and so this is a third problem that i see the bill of a public intellectual they’re academics and they’re respected for their academic accomplishments but they’re not public intellectuals they’re definitely not what we call thought leaders so you’re like a herd without a shepherd they’re not shepherds because what were the prophets who is moses who is muhammad who is jesus they were in public intellectuals yes and so in the absence of prophets you cannot have a religion [Music] the religion of your future and so this is a third problem that i see the
58:20 fourth problem that i see is globalization of course you’re young and educated have options outside macedonia which are far more attractive than the options that macedonia had created for them internally and in today’s day and age borders are meaningless and people just move away that’s it you have one life and so people just move away there is no economic incentive to stay but there is also no spiritual incentive to state some people sometimes people stay some people sometimes people fourth problem that i see is globalization of course you’re young and educated have options outside macedonia which are far more attractive than the options that macedonia had created for them internally and in today’s day and age borders are meaningless and people just move away that’s it you have one life and so people just move away there is no economic incentive to stay but there is also no spiritual incentive to state some people sometimes people stay some people sometimes people
58:58 make economic sacrifices because they have a vision a spiritual calling because they work for something bigger than themselves you know but you don’t even this you don’t have poetry in public life your public life is very dull prose there’s no poetry no no soul no spirit it’s all about day-to-day grocery lists you know yep and if you’re a bit gifted in any field information technology languages never mind if you’re a bit gifted you need a bit more than the daily the pedestrian the make economic sacrifices because they have a vision a spiritual calling because they work for something bigger than themselves you know but you don’t even this you don’t have poetry in public life your public life is very dull prose there’s no poetry no no soul no spirit it’s all about day-to-day grocery lists you know yep and if you’re a bit gifted in any field information technology languages never mind if you’re a bit gifted you need a bit more than the daily the pedestrian the
59:42 mundane the grocery list you need some poetry and so not one of your leaders has this mind this poetic mind the only sad exception was gogerski but gogerski you know fell into corruption and so but he was a poet at least and he had this vision poetic vision had he been less corrupt he would have been a great leader no but so when you wake up in the morning in macedonia you wake up to a reality that is all as adam smith said brutish nasty and short and it’s not balanced by any color by any hope by any poetry mundane the grocery list you need some poetry and so not one of your leaders has this mind this poetic mind the only sad exception was gogerski but gogerski you know fell into corruption and so but he was a poet at least and he had this vision poetic vision had he been less corrupt he would have been a great leader no but so when you wake up in the morning in macedonia you wake up to a reality that is all as adam smith said brutish nasty and short and it’s not balanced by any color by any hope by any poetry
60:32 by any vision it’s not about vision is not fantasy vision is based on reality it’s not balanced by anything vision brought born strategy yes of course everything first happens in the mind and then becomes reality so people leave people go away your most important people go away brain drain is enormous here one of the worst in the world worse than most countries of africa put these four problems together and you understand i think why macedonia is stuck spinning its wheels in place it’s like alice in wonderland where the by any vision it’s not about vision is not fantasy vision is based on reality it’s not balanced by anything vision brought born strategy yes of course everything first happens in the mind and then becomes reality so people leave people go away your most important people go away brain drain is enormous here one of the worst in the world worse than most countries of africa put these four problems together and you understand i think why macedonia is stuck spinning its wheels in place it’s like alice in wonderland where the
61:10 queen says you have to run very fast to stay in place no so there’s a lot of running in macedonia a lot of energy a lot of announcements a lot of press releases a lot of interviews a lot of there’s a lot of running but ascension of them had the spiritual meaning connected with the practice practice real practice practicing reality you don’t have public intellectuals and you don’t have spiritual leaders in the absence of these two you can never become more than what you are it’s simple aren’t those uh lobby groups queen says you have to run very fast to stay in place no so there’s a lot of running in macedonia a lot of energy a lot of announcements a lot of press releases a lot of interviews a lot of there’s a lot of running but ascension of them had the spiritual meaning connected with the practice practice real practice practicing reality you don’t have public intellectuals and you don’t have spiritual leaders in the absence of these two you can never become more than what you are it’s simple aren’t those uh lobby groups
61:46 of rulers of macedonia from the politicians party in their way of ruling my pers my opinion is that it’s not my opinion it’s my how i perceive the things and understand them as a young person who is working in economic research cultural heritage research research sugar fire potential i witnessed that those public authorities are actually not allowing for the young intellectuals to pop out in public for example i’ll mention one thing uh seven year seven years ago i brought this big international scientific team to do a of rulers of macedonia from the politicians party in their way of ruling my pers my opinion is that it’s not my opinion it’s my how i perceive the things and understand them as a young person who is working in economic research cultural heritage research research sugar fire potential i witnessed that those public authorities are actually not allowing for the young intellectuals to pop out in public for example i’ll mention one thing uh seven year seven years ago i brought this big international scientific team to do a
62:25 measurements on the geoglyph here and those pr from the previous government didn’t allow the journalists to interview me they only interviewed the foreigners so that was again proof one of the many that the people who are deciding about big national things are actually not allowing for young people open-minded people that are capable that they’re doing that have uh not only academic knowledge but knowledge from the field actually those rulers are not allowing this thing these were real macedonian intellectuals measurements on the geoglyph here and those pr from the previous government didn’t allow the journalists to interview me they only interviewed the foreigners so that was again proof one of the many that the people who are deciding about big national things are actually not allowing for young people open-minded people that are capable that they’re doing that have uh not only academic knowledge but knowledge from the field actually those rulers are not allowing this thing these were real macedonian intellectuals
63:04 to come on they’re afraid of competition simply it’s the same reason the same reason they are not allowing foreigners meaningful macedonian foreigners to actually come here and do something good i have many friends macedonians in canada in australia and so on they tried many times they’re sabotaged actively as a matter of policy they’re sabotaged you don’t have any any laws like israel does for returning citizens or diaspora people you don’t have israelis multiple numerous laws to come on they’re afraid of competition simply it’s the same reason the same reason they are not allowing foreigners meaningful macedonian foreigners to actually come here and do something good i have many friends macedonians in canada in australia and so on they tried many times they’re sabotaged actively as a matter of policy they’re sabotaged you don’t have any any laws like israel does for returning citizens or diaspora people you don’t have israelis multiple numerous laws
63:40 in support of people who come back to the country in support of people jews in the diaspora you don’t have all this because your politicians are small-minded and not very qualified to use an understatement and they’re terrified of qualified skilled open-minded cosmopolitan competition because this competition will eat them alive within one year unless yeah and they don’t want this they want this country to remain isolated small backward frightened frightened mistreated and so on because in support of people who come back to the country in support of people jews in the diaspora you don’t have all this because your politicians are small-minded and not very qualified to use an understatement and they’re terrified of qualified skilled open-minded cosmopolitan competition because this competition will eat them alive within one year unless yeah and they don’t want this they want this country to remain isolated small backward frightened frightened mistreated and so on because
64:15 it’s good for business and politics in macedonia that’s another comment i should make there’s no politics in macedonia of course they’re not political parties thank you there’s no politics or political parties there is there are rackets there are rackets many of these rackets border on criminal there are records of appropriating state resources and reallocating them and redistributing them to loyalists and cronies and and so on family members of course so political parties in macedonia are it’s good for business and politics in macedonia that’s another comment i should make there’s no politics in macedonia of course they’re not political parties thank you there’s no politics or political parties there is there are rackets there are rackets many of these rackets border on criminal there are records of appropriating state resources and reallocating them and redistributing them to loyalists and cronies and and so on family members of course so political parties in macedonia are
64:50 combination travel agencies um personal atms and so on this this nothing resembling political parties in the west nothing you know what political parties in macedonia don’t even resemble political parties in russia or in china the political parties here are much worse they resemble closest i can say is mafia but mafia was matineau toritare it was a great organization that these people can’t even we can’t even compare it with them uh can we do a one minute break yes of course one vision trick combination travel agencies um personal atms and so on this this nothing resembling political parties in the west nothing you know what political parties in macedonia don’t even resemble political parties in russia or in china the political parties here are much worse they resemble closest i can say is mafia but mafia was matineau toritare it was a great organization that these people can’t even we can’t even compare it with them uh can we do a one minute break yes of course one vision trick
66:29 sorry about that something okay don’t worry in small countries where informal networks are more important than formal networks in such small countries it’s very common for political parties to be actually the way i described not political parties but networks of patronage clientele these are called clientele networks yeah yes clientele network so this is very common in small countries that are that are [Music] where informal dealings are much more important than formal dealings in other words who you know matters much sorry about that something okay don’t worry in small countries where informal networks are more important than formal networks in such small countries it’s very common for political parties to be actually the way i described not political parties but networks of patronage clientele these are called clientele networks yeah yes clientele network so this is very common in small countries that are that are [Music] where informal dealings are much more important than formal dealings in other words who you know matters much
67:10 more than what you know yes so i’m not surprised that must have only developed this because israel until the 1970s was exactly like this was exactly like this so hopefully you will grow up and mature and become adults political adults because right now you’re not and once this happens maybe it will give rise to voices which are which also have an extra dimension of vision pope some ideas and so on right now [Music] you don’t have leaders you have managers and you don’t even have managers not more than what you know yes so i’m not surprised that must have only developed this because israel until the 1970s was exactly like this was exactly like this so hopefully you will grow up and mature and become adults political adults because right now you’re not and once this happens maybe it will give rise to voices which are which also have an extra dimension of vision pope some ideas and so on right now [Music] you don’t have leaders you have managers and you don’t even have managers not
67:53 leaders and you don’t even have you don’t even have very good managers at least okay if you have good managers but you have six rate or fourth rate managers pretending to be leaders that’s the situation everything that we learned i studied in varnan university of economics varna that’s one of the oldest economic universities on this part of europe and everything that we learned in school uh is not applicable to the real situation because uh if we go by the book if we take adam smith for example if we leaders and you don’t even have you don’t even have very good managers at least okay if you have good managers but you have six rate or fourth rate managers pretending to be leaders that’s the situation everything that we learned i studied in varnan university of economics varna that’s one of the oldest economic universities on this part of europe and everything that we learned in school uh is not applicable to the real situation because uh if we go by the book if we take adam smith for example if we
68:30 go by the book and if we control our agriculture production and all that if we control it in the right way the results are inevitable they should come sooner or later but like this with all that fake politic politics idealism neither the leftists are left neither the right wing is right both of them are meeting something in the center and i would ask you what will you tell to me and my friends and to many macedonian young people who want to stay and to have and that have hopes that macedonia will be go by the book and if we control our agriculture production and all that if we control it in the right way the results are inevitable they should come sooner or later but like this with all that fake politic politics idealism neither the leftists are left neither the right wing is right both of them are meeting something in the center and i would ask you what will you tell to me and my friends and to many macedonian young people who want to stay and to have and that have hopes that macedonia will be
69:10 will have a brighter future so you need you need to create you need to create a parallel state you need to opt out of the institutions and to opt out of current politics and to or to give up you need to give up on everything that exists because you will not find solace or the ability to express yourself or to realize your dreams within existing power structures you need to establish your own power structures you need to establish literally a parallel state and you need to challenge the existing state will have a brighter future so you need you need to create you need to create a parallel state you need to opt out of the institutions and to opt out of current politics and to or to give up you need to give up on everything that exists because you will not find solace or the ability to express yourself or to realize your dreams within existing power structures you need to establish your own power structures you need to establish literally a parallel state and you need to challenge the existing state
69:46 as a parallel state a challenge i’m not saying god forbid violence or challenge institutionally yeah is is a parallel state when i say parallel state what’s the difference between power and state and political party for example when i say parallel state i mean that you need to replicate the totality of the state separately from the state so you need to provide solutions that are economic you need to provide a vision you need to provide to provide goals and planning programmatic you need to be programmatic as a parallel state a challenge i’m not saying god forbid violence or challenge institutionally yeah is is a parallel state when i say parallel state what’s the difference between power and state and political party for example when i say parallel state i mean that you need to replicate the totality of the state separately from the state so you need to provide solutions that are economic you need to provide a vision you need to provide to provide goals and planning programmatic you need to be programmatic
70:22 you need to be realistic of course because initially your goals should be very minimal and and you should aspire to realism but once you realize these goals you would have acquired self-esteem and self-confidence and self-sufficiency you could go into bigger goals so it must be incremental and graduated gradual but people like you people who had been exposed to the world intellectuals you have no place now you need to create your own ecosystem and maybe even ego ecosystem you need to team up you need to commune you need to be realistic of course because initially your goals should be very minimal and and you should aspire to realism but once you realize these goals you would have acquired self-esteem and self-confidence and self-sufficiency you could go into bigger goals so it must be incremental and graduated gradual but people like you people who had been exposed to the world intellectuals you have no place now you need to create your own ecosystem and maybe even ego ecosystem you need to team up you need to commune
71:05 you need to interact you need to begin to form networks with structure even hierarchy you need to leverage social media to do all this and you need to have clear-eyed goals starting with small minimal ones going further and you need to begin to act even the smallest actions just meeting just talking just daydreaming daydreaming is an important function then settling settling on one or two goals realizing these goals you need to begin to collaborate with people in the diaspora very closely to uproot the existing you need to interact you need to begin to form networks with structure even hierarchy you need to leverage social media to do all this and you need to have clear-eyed goals starting with small minimal ones going further and you need to begin to act even the smallest actions just meeting just talking just daydreaming daydreaming is an important function then settling settling on one or two goals realizing these goals you need to begin to collaborate with people in the diaspora very closely to uproot the existing
71:46 order your only hope is to team up with the diaspora they have a vested interest to do the same because they had been they had been excluded so all the outcasts and the misfits and the miss koreans and the nerds and the intellectuals all these people need to work together with the resources of the diaspora which are not not small and you need to offer an alternative just provide an alternative that people can then choose to select or not you need to avoid politics because if you were to be politicized order your only hope is to team up with the diaspora they have a vested interest to do the same because they had been they had been excluded so all the outcasts and the misfits and the miss koreans and the nerds and the intellectuals all these people need to work together with the resources of the diaspora which are not not small and you need to offer an alternative just provide an alternative that people can then choose to select or not you need to avoid politics because if you were to be politicized
72:29 people will consider you as another political party yes you need to avoid politics you need to offer spirit and soul and vision and poetry and action coupled with action you need to prove to people people are not convinced they are disillusioned and cynical you need to prove to people that there is a direct line from poetry to action to goals to results what people don’t know and don’t understand that politics rarely leads to results poetry always leads to results that’s what people don’t understand people will consider you as another political party yes you need to avoid politics you need to offer spirit and soul and vision and poetry and action coupled with action you need to prove to people people are not convinced they are disillusioned and cynical you need to prove to people that there is a direct line from poetry to action to goals to results what people don’t know and don’t understand that politics rarely leads to results poetry always leads to results that’s what people don’t understand
73:09 and you need to get them re-acquainted with this indubitable fact of history everything important in history started with poetry the bible is poetry the new testament is poetry the communist manifesto is poetry everything started with poetry politics led nowhere who remembers politicians do you remember politicians from 10 years ago who remembers politicians but who can forget lenin who can forget i don’t know i mean xander alexander of muslim yes who can forget jesus who can forget these were poets and you need to get them re-acquainted with this indubitable fact of history everything important in history started with poetry the bible is poetry the new testament is poetry the communist manifesto is poetry everything started with poetry politics led nowhere who remembers politicians do you remember politicians from 10 years ago who remembers politicians but who can forget lenin who can forget i don’t know i mean xander alexander of muslim yes who can forget jesus who can forget these were poets
73:53 these were not commercialists they were not traders they were not managers they were not even leaders jesus was not a leader he succeeded to collect 12 people very poor leadership but look at his impact muhammad look at the impact of these people you need to reacquaint the public with a basic foundational fact if you don’t dream you never have reality if you have only reality you end up in a nightmare these are the foundational facts and dreaming is about poetry poetry of the soul it’s about these were not commercialists they were not traders they were not managers they were not even leaders jesus was not a leader he succeeded to collect 12 people very poor leadership but look at his impact muhammad look at the impact of these people you need to reacquaint the public with a basic foundational fact if you don’t dream you never have reality if you have only reality you end up in a nightmare these are the foundational facts and dreaming is about poetry poetry of the soul it’s about
74:40 allowing yourself to imagine better worlds and then converting this into a program with goals and then acting on this program it’s very simple actually but macedonians have lost the capacity to dream and they’ve lost the capacity to dream because they’re cynical and they’re cynical because they had been maltreated internally and externally i would say because of the serve because of the existential fear it looks like someone else is controlling the dream of macedonia and doesn’t allow us to dream like we allowing yourself to imagine better worlds and then converting this into a program with goals and then acting on this program it’s very simple actually but macedonians have lost the capacity to dream and they’ve lost the capacity to dream because they’re cynical and they’re cynical because they had been maltreated internally and externally i would say because of the serve because of the existential fear it looks like someone else is controlling the dream of macedonia and doesn’t allow us to dream like we
75:14 are controlled in some 4d 5d that is that is external but you’re also maltreated internally by your own politicians and so on so as individuals you are mistreated at home and you are mistreated abroad and you are mistreated everywhere you you look so this invades your interpersonal relationships as well i think you’re froze for some reason the connection is bad probably [Music] i hope we’re still recording though you’re frozen on the screen and i think the connection is gone it freezed now it’s good now it’s good i are controlled in some 4d 5d that is that is external but you’re also maltreated internally by your own politicians and so on so as individuals you are mistreated at home and you are mistreated abroad and you are mistreated everywhere you you look so this invades your interpersonal relationships as well i think you’re froze for some reason the connection is bad probably [Music] i hope we’re still recording though you’re frozen on the screen and i think the connection is gone it freezed now it’s good now it’s good i
76:04 just hope the recording is not disrupted so that’s more or less it if you have any other questions i’m available and if not my my friends and the people that are following me would like to i know that would like me to ask this thing how would you compare present government and the previous government and are they acting the same sir i’ve been outside macedonia for four years i am not in position to answer it’s not because i’m afraid or anything but i’m simply i don’t know i don’t have just hope the recording is not disrupted so that’s more or less it if you have any other questions i’m available and if not my my friends and the people that are following me would like to i know that would like me to ask this thing how would you compare present government and the previous government and are they acting the same sir i’ve been outside macedonia for four years i am not in position to answer it’s not because i’m afraid or anything but i’m simply i don’t know i don’t have
76:37 enough information okay i returned to macedonia recently to be with my wife in the pandemic and i haven’t been following honestly i haven’t been following macedonia i was involved in russian affairs and then i moved on to hungary and to united kingdom so i was divorced from macedonian affairs i don’t know much i don’t know close to anything actually um i heard that macedonia is i mean i’ve heard about the agreement with a name of course i heard that macedonia is in nato um i don’t know where all this is going enough information okay i returned to macedonia recently to be with my wife in the pandemic and i haven’t been following honestly i haven’t been following macedonia i was involved in russian affairs and then i moved on to hungary and to united kingdom so i was divorced from macedonian affairs i don’t know much i don’t know close to anything actually um i heard that macedonia is i mean i’ve heard about the agreement with a name of course i heard that macedonia is in nato um i don’t know where all this is going
77:15 on this scoffing and so on but i’m not qualified to answer this question i i answer only when i feel really on strong ground fair enough i appreciate that and respect that uh inspired from this talk i would be glad to send you an email uh my poetry book in english pleasure yes that i collected 10 years ago when i was way younger i have to poetry books in macedonia that are not published yet and i just would like to mention for the audience to know that when we mentioned revolution and all that stuff even on this scoffing and so on but i’m not qualified to answer this question i i answer only when i feel really on strong ground fair enough i appreciate that and respect that uh inspired from this talk i would be glad to send you an email uh my poetry book in english pleasure yes that i collected 10 years ago when i was way younger i have to poetry books in macedonia that are not published yet and i just would like to mention for the audience to know that when we mentioned revolution and all that stuff even
77:52 our revolutionaries from the end of 19th century beginning of 20th century were actually researching the language even vomaro started with the losers with the secret macedonian young organization that was trying to change the language in that official bulgarian the time and most of our revolutionaries were actually scientists they collected uh legends fairy tales they were doing technology anthropology geography they were scientists and i hope that in near time macedonians will help themselves that will help them sell ourselves and our revolutionaries from the end of 19th century beginning of 20th century were actually researching the language even vomaro started with the losers with the secret macedonian young organization that was trying to change the language in that official bulgarian the time and most of our revolutionaries were actually scientists they collected uh legends fairy tales they were doing technology anthropology geography they were scientists and i hope that in near time macedonians will help themselves that will help them sell ourselves and
78:33 that we have enough friends in the world that when they’ll see that we try and we not only try but work and put action that we have enough friends that will help us actually to build new masses to build macedonia from a new because this part of land doesn’t matter how small it looks it has a great potential that yeah you might surpass many of the big countries i agree the first interview i ever gave first ever was to nova macadonia and i said and it became the the title of the interview that we have enough friends in the world that when they’ll see that we try and we not only try but work and put action that we have enough friends that will help us actually to build new masses to build macedonia from a new because this part of land doesn’t matter how small it looks it has a great potential that yeah you might surpass many of the big countries i agree the first interview i ever gave first ever was to nova macadonia and i said and it became the the title of the interview
79:10 i said macedonia has potential that is equal to switzerland i see i mean switzerland has nothing i don’t know if you look at switzerland’s data it’s nothing not agricultural land not it’s a it’s a very poor country as far as geographical endowments it has nothing and look what he did switzerland the richest country in the world you know if we take our natural resources our cultural heritage and the strength of the people and hard work hard working people that we have here if all of that is ruled and managed by i said macedonia has potential that is equal to switzerland i see i mean switzerland has nothing i don’t know if you look at switzerland’s data it’s nothing not agricultural land not it’s a it’s a very poor country as far as geographical endowments it has nothing and look what he did switzerland the richest country in the world you know if we take our natural resources our cultural heritage and the strength of the people and hard work hard working people that we have here if all of that is ruled and managed by
79:45 people who have vision actually and who think hundred years from now on long-term strategy i hope that things will be better i can tell you one thing i have never come across a group of people more creative than macedonians you’re amazing every every per every second person is a musician every third person is a is a writer every i mean there is a lot of explosive creativity here people are very creative and um and intelligent people are intelligent level of literacy used to be very low but literacy is not intelligence it’s people who have vision actually and who think hundred years from now on long-term strategy i hope that things will be better i can tell you one thing i have never come across a group of people more creative than macedonians you’re amazing every every per every second person is a musician every third person is a is a writer every i mean there is a lot of explosive creativity here people are very creative and um and intelligent people are intelligent level of literacy used to be very low but literacy is not intelligence it’s
80:21 not the same you are intelligent people and you are extremely creative people but you are extremely chaotic you are not channeled no one is channeling you all these energies are like a light bulb not like a laser you need to take all this light and make it a laser and then you will succeed no one will defeat you because you are endowed you’re very gifted people really honestly this is not you know i said some very difficult things in this interview when when i think you’re negative i say not the same you are intelligent people and you are extremely creative people but you are extremely chaotic you are not channeled no one is channeling you all these energies are like a light bulb not like a laser you need to take all this light and make it a laser and then you will succeed no one will defeat you because you are endowed you’re very gifted people really honestly this is not you know i said some very difficult things in this interview when when i think you’re negative i say
80:55 you’re negative you’re passive aggressive and when i think you’re positive i say positive things as well you’re amazing i have never come across i lived in 13 countries and i worked in 52. i have never come across a group of people more talented creative than this group of people then macedonians not even jews by the way jews are more intelligent jews are very intelligent i mean there’s no no group of people more intelligent than the jews but not as creative as macedonians not as creative as most you’re negative you’re passive aggressive and when i think you’re positive i say positive things as well you’re amazing i have never come across i lived in 13 countries and i worked in 52. i have never come across a group of people more talented creative than this group of people then macedonians not even jews by the way jews are more intelligent jews are very intelligent i mean there’s no no group of people more intelligent than the jews but not as creative as macedonians not as creative as most
81:28 of them take this alone do you know creative industries they’re the biggest industries in the world yep the creative industries i.t add to this idea i mean you’re so well positioned i mean dump all the nonsense just focus on this service industries i.t outsourcing this that and you will have a brilliant future you’ll become rich people absolutely rich people you can also serve as offshore territory for banking for i mean there’s so many things you can do and yet for decades everyone is talking of them take this alone do you know creative industries they’re the biggest industries in the world yep the creative industries i.t add to this idea i mean you’re so well positioned i mean dump all the nonsense just focus on this service industries i.t outsourcing this that and you will have a brilliant future you’ll become rich people absolutely rich people you can also serve as offshore territory for banking for i mean there’s so many things you can do and yet for decades everyone is talking
82:03 about this not only somebody many yes nothing is done nothing is done because you don’t dare to dream and because you think that dreamers are not doers i don’t know who poisoned your brains only dreamers are doers only dreamers are doers something the population needs to assimilate it’s been a pleasure to talk to you thank you for having me thank you very much i hope that this conversation will inspire people will thank you that will influence more thinking and we will influence not about this not only somebody many yes nothing is done nothing is done because you don’t dare to dream and because you think that dreamers are not doers i don’t know who poisoned your brains only dreamers are doers only dreamers are doers something the population needs to assimilate it’s been a pleasure to talk to you thank you for having me thank you very much i hope that this conversation will inspire people will thank you that will influence more thinking and we will influence not
82:43 only macedonians but friends of macedonia for a better and brighter future thank you thank you for having me it was a pleasure really it was a pleasure thank you sir thank you only macedonians but friends of macedonia for a better and brighter future thank you thank you for having me it was a pleasure really it was a pleasure thank you sir thank you

Summary Link:

https://vakninsummaries.com/collective-narcissism-and-its-leaders-case-of-macedonia-with-nikola-ristevski/

https://vakninsummaries.com/ (Full summaries of Sam Vaknin’s videos)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/mediakit.html (My work in psychology: Media Kit and Press Room)

Bonus Consultations with Sam Vaknin or Lidija Rangelovska (or both) http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/ctcounsel.html

http://www.youtube.com/samvaknin (Narcissists, Psychopaths, Abuse)

http://www.youtube.com/vakninmusings (World in Conflict and Transition)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com (Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/cv.html (Biography and Resume)

Summary

Abuse, Meaning, narcissism, People, Personality, Psychology, Reality, Sam Vaknin, Trauma, Vaknin Summaries

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