Um, I mean, if 20 years ago you would have identified one in 10 as someone like that today, I think one in two would be more likely your professors, your colleagues, your neighbors, people you meet your other students.

You name it, your spouse, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your children, your, I mean, everyone today it’s all over the place.

And narcissism starts at an earlier and earlier age until about 15 years ago, we used to say that narcissism cannot be diagnosed before the age of 21 and then 18.

And now we believe that we can diagnose pathological narcissism, even at the age of 12, narcissism begins much earlier than before.

And as a, and I think this is influenced by technology, technology in ours, technology gives even children, adolescents, teenagers, gives them the powers that used to be reserved to adults only until 10 years ago.

Today, a kid of 10 years old can, you know, publish books, make a television program, espouses views and pretend to be 60 throughout the process.

So there is a lot of unhealthy empowerment, going on. And I think it has an effect. I’m kidding about that way.

This is a true, this is not a metaphor. It’s a true case.

If you’re a teenager, a kid, and you have an Instagram channel, I’m sorry, where you peel bananas, you just peel bananas and you have 16, 16.8 million followers, it’s bound to get to your head.

Of course it’s bound to me.

And indeed recently, I mean, not recently, relatively speaking recently, about 10 or 15 years ago, there was a professor Millman in Harvard university who suggested a new concept called situational narcissism. Situational narcissism is late onset narcissism.

Remember, we believe that pathological narcissism is created in childhood. It’s a childhood thing.

Millman suggested that actually, there is late onset narcissism, circumstances which tend to reward narcissistic behaviors and traits.

So he studied actually rock stars. He studied rock stars, I think football stars, but definitely rock stars.

And he discovered that perfectly decent chaps, you know, the neighbor next door, when they become rock stars, they become utterly narcissistic and then they become narcissist. I mean, they score high on the narcissistic personality inventory test and on an MMPI two, which are the main tests we use to diagnose.

So they become narcissists even though a year before they became rock stars, they were utterly decent folk folks, you know, so he coined the phrase situational, acquired situational narcissism.

And I think many, many, many teenagers and so on are beginning to experience acquired situational narcissism.

I propose this, I’m going to hijack the interview just to explain, just to explain the many views.

When I keep saying, you know, narcissism is a result of childhood abuse, narcissism is rather a childhood abuse.

Everyone imagines massiated, children age four and three and two who are beaten daily and at night rate, you know, that’s a typical image of abuse.

The worst possible fact.

Yeah. The one, yes, of course it’s true. 18 physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, let alone sexual abuse are the classic forms of abuse of children and they result in a severe trauma and these traumas can lead to one of various solutions because they’re very solutions.

So child can solve the trauma by becoming submissive and later on in life becoming codependent. The child can solve the trauma by internalizing the aggressor, internalizing the abuser, by saying, well, I will not be the abuser. I will never be a victim. I’ll be the victimizer from now on.

And this is of course narcissism.

So reactions to abuse or can be to remain healthy, mentally healthy.

And most people do, by the way, a few people become narcissists and a few people become codependent. And that’s one of the reasons we believe that there is a genetic predisposition to narcissism because in the same family, 10 siblings are abused. Only one becomes narcissist, the narcissist.

So it seems to be some genetic component coming back to abuse.

Abuse can be classic as I described, but abuse when abusers also less conventional forms.

For example, when you put a child or a pedestrian, when you idolize the child, when you use the child to realize your own as a parent, your own unfulfilled wishes and dreams, when you treat the child as an extension of yourself, if you get best marks in school, I will love you. If you don’t, I will hate you. If you force the child to adopt a profession of vocation or an avocation, which caters to your own narcissistic needs, you know, you will be a famous pianist or famous violinist and that will make me proud, etc.

All these are forms of abuse.

Why?

Because both in the classical forms, sexual abuse, physical abuse, etc., and in the non-classical forms, idolizing, treating as extensions, conditional love, in all these forms, the child’s boundaries are not recognized. Either they are invaded physically or they are invaded mentally. The child is not allowed to separate from the parent and individuate to become an individual. The boundaries of a child are violated. The child is treated as never to be separated.

And we know, I mean, we believe that there is a process called separation and individuation, first described by Melanie Klein and then Vera Mahler. Separation and individuation are crucial processes where we separate from our parents, which is in itself a very frightening and traumatic experience. And we separate from them and then we individuate, we become individuals.

Narcissistic parents do not allow their children to separate and individuate.

And this is an intergenerational transmission mechanism of narcissism. The current generation are much more narcissistic than the previous generation. And their children will be much more narcissistic than they are. And their children’s children will be even more narcissistic.

Because narcissism is passed on. It’s contagious. They merge with their children. They fuse with their children. And they manipulate the children by guilt-tripping the child, by shaming the child, and by using the child and exploiting the child to gratify themselves.

And so this is not an epidemic that’s going to stop. It’s an epidemic that’s going to evolve exponentially.

So if you were a parent, or even if you’re someone who feels as though, oh, I might be a narcissist and I don’t like that about myself, what steps could someone take to either mitigate the symptoms or when raising a child to prevent that from even starting?

We asked me about therapy. Unfortunately, right now, there are no effective therapies. There are some therapies succeed in modifying behavior, but it’s not long term. And it’s in the fringes and deals mostly with abrasive and antisocial behaviors, socially unacceptable and so on. We don’t have any therapy with the exception of a therapy that I’m just developing, but it’s very experimental. And I don’t dare put it to the public that I found the solution, but I’m working on it.

So the exception of this therapy, whichI dubbed cold therapy, exception of cold therapy, all other treatment modalities, all other therapies, psychotherapies known to us have very little traction with narcissism.

So going to therapy is not a solution. I can’t tell a perspective, a narcissist who is a prospective parent, for example, well, go treat yourself. It’s useless. Self-awareness works to some extent, but narcissist needs for narcissistic supply are existential. Without this supply, they feel dead. They feel they don’t exist. They feel annihilated, like the famous painting Galatea by Dali, where the you know, the image dissolves into a series of molecules.

Narcissists feel that they dissolve if they don’t have supply. It’s essential. It’s like food and water and air. So they can’t stop it. I can’t tell the narcissistic parents, listen, be aware that you’re a narcissist and curb your behaviors, change your behaviors. It won’t work.

Simply won’t work.

Regrettably, the only advice I have to a prospective parent who is absolutely convinced or has been diagnosed as a narcissist, in other words, been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder is to not have children, which is exactly the solution I chose.

I don’t have children.

That’s fascinating though. In terms of being in a relationship with a narcissist, do you think it’s possible to have a successful romantic relationship with a narcissist or are there kinds of people who are more likely to get caught in a narcissistic, narcissist web?

Everyone is like, everyone is liable to be caught in the narcissist web. There is a Smith online that narcissists seek specific types. That’s not true. Narcissists are equal opportunity abusers. You provide the narcissist with narcissistic supply. He’s yours or you are his. So it’s type, in constant and tight, nonspecific. Everyone could be a victim. Everyone can and does become a victim of narcissism.

Of course it’s possible to maintain a long term. And even though it’s a happy relationship with a narcissist, if you’re willing, negate yourself, be completely subservient and submissive, lie, constantly adulate, admire, and adore the narcissist, provide the narcissist with a constant stream of reminiscences, with regards to his glory and grandeur, etc.

So if you’re willing to kowtow and you know, you can survive with a narcissist, it’s, and even be happy is whatever else you say about narcissists. They’re very interesting people. They, you know, their life is technicolor. Most people’s lives are black and white. Narcissists’ lives are colorful. Narcissists’ reckless, six risks and thrills is innovative because he has to constantly innovate to obtain supply on a regular basis.

Witness Donald Trump, who has reinvented himself. I don’t know how many times at least four and so on. So there are rewards to living with the nurses, definitely rewards.

If you are an adrenaline junkie, if you love thrills and risks and so on, then narcissist is a person for you, but you have to pay a very high price. Narcissist will not countenance and tolerate your existence. You’re a separate existence as an autonomous entity. That’s out of the question. You are the narcissist’s extension servant, the equivalent of his third arm and third leg as the narcissist would be utterly shocked to discover that he is disobeyed by his refrigerator. He would be utterly infuriated by your, your disobedience and argumentativeness or opinionated, counter utterly out of the question.

You do not exist. If I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you. You’ll drop everything you’re doing and you’ll do it now because my priorities and needs and so on are, foremost paramount, etc.

I mean, I think the picture is clear. You have to stop to exist in order to survive with the narcissist.

And then you have your rewards, you know, like every other addict, because living with a narcissist becomes fast, becomes an addiction. It’s addictive. We know that, we know that intermittent reinforcement, hot and cold approach avoidance, they create addiction biochemically. I mean, neurotransmitters and so on, there’s a biochemical reaction tointermittent reinforcement.

Narcissus uses intermittent reinforcement and bullying, which is a heightened form of reinforcement on a regular basis, hot and cold, unpredictability here today, there tomorrow, cycles, ups and downs, moods, liability, all these great addiction in the partner. And it’s very difficult to get rid of this addiction. Even, even partners who have been abused to the absolute maxi moment beyond imagination still miss the narcissist solely, miss the days they had with the narcissist, miss this, you know, roller coaster.

One of the last thing I wanted to ask you, because clearly, I mean, you’re putting out a message that isuseful, I would say to a lot of people and you’re definitely warning people about the dangers of narcissism, telling people how to spot them.

I mean, you almost like ratting on yourself in a sense.

Um, I know it’s a lifelong condition, but in your experience, does it get any easier?

I mean, do you think narcissists when they’re 20 or more or equally reckless than there when they’re 50, is there any hope at all for people with NPD?

No, antisocial and reckless behaviors tend to ameliorate with age that had been discovered in the fifties and sixties.

Psychopaths, for example, become much less psychopathic, under the age of 40, 45 borderline, people with borderline personality disorder, 50% of them lose the diagnosis after age 40. So after age four, between 35 and 45 after age 40, especially, there’s an amelioration of many of the less savory aspects.

But on the other hand, now it becomes older, both destructive and self-destructive. So they keep losing, they keep losing spouses, families, money, business ventures collapse, everything. I mean, loss is the background music, the voice over the soundtrack of the narcissist life.

So these losses accumulate and they are very eroding, erosive. And the narcissist is very tired, exhausted and depleted by the end of his life. He’s also become, he’s also much older.

So as a wunderkind, you could have garnered narcissist’s apply much more easily as a 25 year old somatic narcissist. It’s much easier to get late or to conquer women if you’re a man, etc.

And of course, when you are in your sixties, everything becomes much more difficult. Everything you do is jaded.

Uh, you are far less likely to attract the opposite sex if that’s, if you’re so inclined or the same sex, if you are so inclined. So sexual conquests are difficult. Romantic conquests are almost impossible. It’s, it’smuch more difficult to obtain supply when you are older.

And the need for supply is constant, actually increases with age because you have to compensate for the dilapidation of your body and the stalling of your mind. So you need more supply.

So supply, the need for supply increases the ability to procure it or to secure it decreases. And this gap is harrowing. And at some point begins to be terrifying to the narcissist.

And other features, antisocial conduct or criminalized conduct, sadism, all these ameliorate with age.

So it’s much easier to be a narcissist when he’s older than when he’s younger, but it’s much less rewarding because he’s likely to become a brooding melancholic, pessimistic, hopeless, grouchy, paranoid recluse, which is a typical profile of old age narcissist.

And even someone like Trump is actually this, this is a profile of Donald Trump. He’s doing all this in full public view. But if you look at him objectively, that’s precisely what is grouchy, pessimistic, paranoid, aggressive and so on. So it would have been easier.

It’s easier to be with him, in some ways now, but it’s also more difficult.

Sam Vaknin, thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure talking to you.

My pleasure as well. Thank you.

All right, folks, that was Sam Vaknin and thank you for listening to Dunk Tank. See you next time.